340 réponses à ce sujet

[Merlex]

Arthur Cousland wrote...
In general, I think how much people liked DA2 depends on how much a person likes combat in rpgs.  Those who like to roleplay or primarily just care about the story didn't like the game much.

That is a very broad generalization. That may be the case with some players, not me. There are five things that draw me to RPGs; developing my character's personality, character and party building, companion interactions, combat, and a good story.

[Merlex]

[quote]Renmiri1 wrote...

[quote]Merlex wrote...

Three waves of enemies dropping from the sky, is hardly what i'd call unpredictable.

[/quote]
Did force you to be on your toes and not forget your healer
[quote]Merlex wrote...

I'd rather rely on my character's reflexes than mine. I have no problem with situational awareness or keeping my healer alive. Those should be part of any combat system. I just believe there are better ways of doing it than ninjas dropping from the sky, all around my party like i'm in a Jackie Chan cartoon.[/quote]
Didn't bother me but sure, DA2 combat can be improved. Doesn't mean it isn't fun to start with[/quote]

This next one was a reply to someone else, but it applies:
[quote] Renmiri1 wrote... Yes because all enemies fight full out frontal assault and do not hide - on their own territory - and try to flank your party. Riiight

So tell me, what was Loghain supposed to do at Ostagar, when our Wardens lit the torch ?
Come from the back of the darkspawn horde ? Surprise them with all of a sudden a lot more soldiers ? From a different direction ?
Imagine that. Not commititng all your forces AT ONCE, on the same spot..
SURPRISING the enemy, by having your second wave of soldiers attack from a flank/ back
Why you would almost think Loghain had some kind off.. oh i don't know.. strategy ?! [/quote]

Dropping from the sky, next to party members, is not flanking. Well except spiders, i hate spiders. If they wanted to surprise party members with reenforcements, they could have had the second wave be rogues in stealth. They could have had them sneak up to party members engaged in combat and attack. What DA2 does in most combats is just lazy.

There are two examples of good flanking i can remember in DA2. The first being the fight with Ser Varnell. While your taking out his mobs, a wave attacks from the rear. The second being in the Finding Nathaniel quest. Second and third waves flank you. Though it would have been better without the bombs.

[quote]Renmiri1 wrote...
[quote]Merlex wrote...
I'm always active and pay attention during combat. Yes i like to pause, look around and pick targets. Yes i would like to position my party members. My hands are always on the keyboard during combat.[/quote]
they might be, but on DAO they don't need to be and you actually have very little to do if you try. Drove me bonkers![/quote]

I like to work during combat. I have a Logitech G-15 keyboard. Even without an action queue, i program the g-keys. Camera swing, quickslots, pause, attack next target, and stamina/ health potions are all set up in it. I use the arrow keys for movement. I hate the mouse.

[quote]Renmiri1 wrote...
[quote]Merlex wrote...
One of the problems i had with DA2 combat was the tactic roles settings. Even if i set Anders to ranged, he would run into the middle of combat, or go off on his own to fight a squad. Varric would try and go toe to toe in melee. Thankfully Nexus has a mod that takes care of that.

Earlier you talked about the role of Warriors, as drawing in enemies. Sounds great when it works. I can't count how many times i had Aveline with full Bravery and Shield Defense on, and enemies just ran past ignoring her. Sometimes enemies got past her in doorways, and not just teleporting assassins.

Because of the lack of basic damage, she or Tank Hawk don't draw enough aggro. Taunt you say? Yea, with a twenty second cooldown. It's good for one maybe two uses. Does it make sense to you that a dagger does more damage per hit than a great sword?[/quote]
Lol, I hear you! It happens to me all the time while tanking instances on WoW with random PUG party members. I need snap aggro to lock the mobs on me before the idiotic DPS overaggro. Would it kill them to wait till i gather the mobs ? Would it kill the mage or hunter to move away from the boss' front paw cleave ? FFS, attack from a flank or from the back!

Being that "natural" intelligence players can behave as idiotic as the DA2 AI, I would say that the DA2 AI is pretty well done. Almost as good as the randon huntard, mage or suicidal rogues I see all the time.

Look at your tactics, maybe you have some settings forcing your mage or Varric to go melee. Or maybe one of those "predictable" waves of mobs just managed to sneak past your tank to pummel your range guys. Which happens. Taunt is not a cure all. That is what I like about DA2 combat. You need to keep your eye on the party and react fast. [/quote]

Nothing wrong in my tactic settings, it's the AI. Anders running up the stairs to take on a group of archers and a s/s warrior, by himself is stupid. Suicidial Baby's Tactics Guide, has simular complaints. I now use a mod called Smarter Party. With this mod, ranged party members try to move out of melee. The difference is night and day.

[quote]Renmiri1 wrote...
[quote]Merlex wrote...
There's nothing to DA2 combat. You build your characters and companions basically the same way every time. DPS and crit damage. I like to play a controller mage sometimes, or a tank that can hold enemies while my ranged members pick them off.

And seriously, why do enemies have such large health bars, but do little damage and have very few abilities. Enemy mages were a joke, well exept the Qunari.[/quote]
Makes battles last longer. They were never long enough to annoy me but maybe it does get on some players nerves.[/quote]

I sometimes like long battles. I use a weapon rebalance mod. It lowered the damage per hit for daggers, and raised it for swords and great swords. Dual wielding rogues still do more damage per second as they should with two faster weapons. This also give Warriors more aggro. I also use the Enemy Damage Doubler and Smarter Enemies mods.

[quote]Renmiri1 wrote...
[quote]Merlex wrote...
I felt that DAO combat didn't respond fast enough to my commands. But DA2 combat speed was way over the top. I thought i was in an arcade playing Gauntlet. It was fun at first, but quickly became the same old buttom mashing fest every time. [/quote]
I liked Final Fantasy 12 a lot better than DAO, DAA or DA2, but I really don't enjoy the strategy part of the combat system, so I prefer WoW. Mass Effect isn't bad either. But I think it would be a disrespect to fans like you, who enjoy the strategy, to completely remove it from DA. I'm ok with having a hybrid combat system that allows us fast pace fans to have fun, while preserving the slow planned strategy stuff you guys prefer.

[/quote]

Being able to setup multiple actions in a queue, would be a good start. A hold command that actually works would be another. Giving enemies more than three abilities and better damage dealing. Smarter ways of flanking and surprising party members.

Modifié par Merlex, 12 septembre 2012 - 12:24 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Not in my opinion, no.

I played through with a friend and it was a chore that would never have been completed without company and beer and breaks.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 12 septembre 2012 - 02:36 .

[Slayer299]

No, not really, more tiresome than fun for me.

[Uccio]

No, no fun. Felt like chore most of the time, and annoying seeing how everything went its way and I had no control over anything. I couldn´t even throw those white lillies out of window after Hawke´s mom quest. Nice reminder.

[unbentbuzzkill]

i liked the new combat system but didn't like the rating system for the weapons and DA2 seemed alot shorter then DA:O but in all it's a decent game.

[Renmiri1]

Merlex wrote...

Dropping from the sky, next to party members, is not flanking. Well except spiders, i hate spiders. If they wanted to surprise party members with reenforcements, they could have had the second wave be rogues in stealth. They could have had them sneak up to party members engaged in combat and attack. What DA2 does in most combats is just lazy.

There are two examples of good flanking i can remember in DA2. The first being the fight with Ser Varnell. While your taking out his mobs, a wave attacks from the rear. The second being in the Finding Nathaniel quest. Second and third waves flank you. Though it would have been better without the bombs.

I was answering to a poster that said enemies appearing from the back of your party was "ridiculous". It is not, makes a lot of sense. Hawke is usually attacking entrenched enemies on their own turf. Of course they will surprise you and flank you.

Was it well executed ? Most times, yes, IMHO. You being unable to see red dots on the minimap doesn't mean that there arent any enemies hiding ready to pounce. Very few times I got the impression they dropped out of nowhere. Most times they dropped from a higher level (Docks, Lowtown) or came from a different direction (Wounded coast, caves) and was perfectly believable TO ME. But I like surprises.

Is easy to understand why someone who paused, put their party in fixed positions and set up killer strategy steps for the battle gets miffed at seeing it fail because a mob ganked your healer from behind. I understand the frustration. I just don't share the passion for utterly predictable battles. 

Merlex wrote...

I like to work during combat. I have a Logitech G-15 keyboard. Even without an action queue, i program the g-keys. Camera swing, quickslots, pause, attack next target, and stamina/ health potions are all set up in it. I use the arrow keys for movement. I hate the mouse.

G13 here. And the Naga mouse although I don't use all 17 buttons 

Merlex wrote...

Nothing wrong in my tactic settings, it's the AI. Anders running up the stairs to take on a group of archers and a s/s warrior, by himself is stupid. Suicidial Baby's Tactics Guide, has simular complaints. I now use a mod called Smarter Party. With this mod, ranged party members try to move out of melee. The difference is night and day.

Guess that mod make your party smarter than the average WoW player 

.

Merlex wrote...

Being able to setup multiple actions in a queue, would be a good start. A hold command that actually works would be another. Giving enemies more than three abilities and better damage dealing. Smarter ways of flanking and surprising party members.

Those sound like good improvements to me too. Just keep the pace - optionally - fast, A lot of us button mashers enjoy fast paced combat 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Renmiri1 wrote...

I was answering to a poster that said enemies appearing from the back of your party was "ridiculous". It is not, makes a lot of sense. Hawke is usually attacking entrenched enemies on their own turf. Of course they will surprise you and flank you.

Was it well executed ? Most times, yes, IMHO. You being unable to see red dots on the minimap doesn't mean that there arent any enemies hiding ready to pounce. Very few times I got the impression they dropped out of nowhere. Most times they dropped from a higher level (Docks, Lowtown) or came from a different direction (Wounded coast, caves) and was perfectly believable TO ME. But I like surprises.

If I searched the area in advance, and those enemies weren't there, then they shouldn't later magically appear.

That's the problem.  It wasn't that we got surrounded - it was that we got surrounded in a way that broke the setting.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Xewaka wrote...

True. The only combats that were remotely challenging were those in which access to chokepoints was restricted due to pathways being shut as the encounter started.

And that's also usually a bad design.  If the doors close behind me and I can't open them, there had better be a good in-game reason for that.  That the doors magically unlock at the end of the battle usually demonstrates that there is no good in-game reason.

ME2 was terrible for this.  We were herded through encounter points one at a time, and never allowed to turn around.

[Sylvianus]

Renmiri1 wrote...

I was answering to a poster that said enemies appearing from the back of your party was "ridiculous". It is not, makes a lot of sense. Hawke is usually attacking entrenched enemies on their own turf. Of course they will surprise you and flank you.

Do you ever read what other people are telling to you ? Or you just keep saying lalalala, without hearing anything for the sake of it ?

If I read this line, you still don't get what is the issue despite several posts made by other posters here to explain you what was wrong. Read at least in the previous page the last Sylvius's posts please, it's getting tiring. You are still missing the point and I don't get how it is possible.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...If I searched the area in advance, and those enemies weren't there, then they shouldn't later magically appear.

That's the problem.  It wasn't that we got surrounded - it was that we got surrounded in a way that broke the setting.

God, I hope she hears you this time. Sounds apparently difficult to understand the real issue.

Obviously in DAO we got also surrounded, surprised while they were flanking us many times and nobody complained.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 13 septembre 2012 - 05:35 .

[AshenSugar]

I've never had such a love/hate relationship with any game as I have with Dragon Age II.

I usually end up categorising and sorting all my games collection into separate piles of 'excellent', 'decent' and 'ZoMG NOT WORTHY!!!!11'

Needless to say the latter pile is rather tiny, and includes Dragon Age Origins, and other timeless classics.

There is no 'this sucks' pile, as I am careful about what I buy.


DA:II is the only game I don't have a nice convenient pile to put it in. There are things about the game I find thoroughly fun, and other aspects that frustrate, bore or annoy the heck out of me. There seems to be no real threshold or clear point of reference involved for either extreme.

I can say that the game (for me) deteriorates the most as I move into Act III, especially after the 'Best Served Cold' quest.. after which I feel that the plot is moving into the realm of self parody, and much of the inherent logic and sense seems to fly out the window. On the other hand, the whole Qunari plot leaves me absolutely fulfilled. Meeting with the Arishok leaves me in turns, fascinated, and chilled to the bone. Any game that makes me feel that way has plenty of worth, regardless of other faults.

So many gameplay, and mechanic-based aspects are unfun for me, as I find the limitations frustrating after the relative freedom of Origins.. but at the same time, the combat in DA:II can be danged fun at times, and quite addictive.... despite the horrid waves.

I also found Legacy and Mark Of The Assassin to be very fun indeed. I thoroughly enjoyed both DLCs (save for the tricky mandatory puzzle in Legacy - I suck at puzzles).

I'd have personally liked to have seen the 'Exalted March' expansion, as I felt Bioware had listened to, and addressed many community concerns by that point, which were reflected in both DLCs. It's not a huge leap of logic to assume that the expansion would have addressed even more.

Regardless of it's 'fun value' I've still completed the game around three times.. so it must be doing something right, even if not perfectly.

[PinkDiamondstl]

Yes DA2 was fun and the DLC's only made it better. It's the only game from BioWare that I'm still playing.

[Innocent Erendira]

I hate to say it, but for me it really wasn't fun at all. I just continued playing because I wanted to find out what happened next..and then when I got unsavory outcomes I thought I'd just fix it in my next playthrough..except that I couldn't because those were just part of the story...

There was very little player agency and the fighting got very tedious and boring. Eventually whenever another group of giant spiders spawned I would just roll my eyes.

[frostajulie]

I had fun playing it but I only paid 20 dollars and thats all it was worth. It would not have been fun at full price. And while I love the combat and the siblings and Fenris voice and Anders Kiss I hate the elves and miss the immersion of DAO.

but yeah it was fun.

[Sylvius the Mad]

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Yes DA2 was fun and the DLC's only made it better. It's the only game from BioWare that I'm still playing.

It's one of only two games from BioWare that I've uninstalled (the other being ME2).

I still have BG, BG2, NWN, KotOR, JE, DAO, and even ME installed.  But not DA2.

[Mr Fixit]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

PinkDiamondstl wrote...

Yes DA2 was fun and the DLC's only made it better. It's the only game from BioWare that I'm still playing.

It's one of only two games from BioWare that I've uninstalled (the other being ME2).

I still have BG, BG2, NWN, KotOR, JE, DAO, and even ME installed.  But not DA2.

Out of curiosity: what happened to ME3? Never played it? Why?

[Sylvius the Mad]

I never wanted to play ME3. ME was a decent game, and had some genuinely good parts, but ME2 was a downgrade in nearly every respect. And during ME2's development, I chatted a bit with the dev team and it was clear that they had no interest in making a game I wanted to play. I tried it out anyway (because I kind of liked the first one, and I tended to play all of BioWare's games), and it was terrible.

So while I didn't actively follow ME3's development at all, what I have heard sounds like they continued in the same wrong-headed direction they were already going on ME2, and I have no interest in subjecting myself to that.

[Mr Fixit]

Fair enough.

Though if you approach ME2/3 as story-driven adventure shooters, I still feel they are very fun games. But I understand what you mean.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't want really to play a shooter. I don't like action games. And luckily, the combat in the ME games can be played like RPG combat. You can pause, select targets, and then unpause to see the results.

But the rest of the game isn't very interesting from a roleplaying perspective. Played like a RPG, ME2 (and presumably ME3) is just a linear dungeon-crawl with bad combat.

[mp911]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't want really to play a shooter. I don't like action games. And luckily, the combat in the ME games can be played like RPG combat. You can pause, select targets, and then unpause to see the results.

But the rest of the game isn't very interesting from a roleplaying perspective. Played like a RPG, ME2 (and presumably ME3) is just a linear dungeon-crawl with bad combat.

indeed, still haven't finished it yet

[Garrus94]

cJohnOne wrote...

While I enjoy DA2 I don't know if I'd call it fun.


What do you think?

Sort of.  It wasn't bad, but I personally was not a big fan of the new direction.

[Sejborg]

Well. It didn't make me laugh so I would say no.

[Atlanth]

On my first playthrough it was fun for the most part, because I wanted to finish the story, though the combat was very, very tedious. But when I finished the game, there was no urge to replay it once more, because the story wasn't that riveting and the combat that interesting. So: fun enough for the short term but with no replay value.

[Cyberfrog81]

Not very. It has an addictive quality to it, but that's not enough.

The story had potential, but is not executed all that well. Character writers and actors did an admirable job, but I consider ME2's characters vastly superior. It's fine to have "flawed" characters, but some of DA2's companions are flawed to the extent that I don't want to spend time with them, much less trust them to watch my back.

Way too much combat (and not in diverse locations either). I did quests (including "talk to companion") just to remove them from the list, i.e. a chore. The game had its moments, but overall it was more tedious than interesting.