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[Cheesesack]

Now I know I might draw a lot of flak for this, but hear me out and read the OP before you comment.

I read a lot (moreso before the ME3 ending debacle stole the spotlight, but still from time to time) about how people want so-one-so to be a romance option, or complaining that so-one-so is only available to male/female Shep. My question is, why did they not satisfy everyone and make them able to romance (pretty much) whoever they choose?

Now like I said, hear out my reasoning. Also, this is in no way a request or a speculation that they will do something like this via DLC or anything. I find it highly unlikely that we will get any additional romance-related content in any DLC and even if we do, it will certainly not be something like this. This just a 'what if' thread.

Now, to support my argument. The whole romance sub-plot has become more diverse and more substational as the series has gone on. In ME1 we had 3 romance options in total, with each gender of shep having the choice of 2. In ME2, that number increased substantially. Finally, in ME3, while there were only a couple of new options, we had all the complex, interwoven threads from various earlier romances making for a large number of unique/different scenes. In short, Bioware put quite a bit of effort into this.

In all three games, there were some romance options that were only avilable to one gender, and some romance options that were avilable to both (well, in ME2 not so much, but you had the potential to continue with Liara from ME1, and you had Kelly, who sort of counted). ME3 is where it really took off. You had dedicated, homosexual romances, you had both new and returning chracters who could be romanced by both genders and you even had a character, Kaiden, who's sexual orintation 'changed' from straight to bi. One could argue (as indeed, he does in game) that he had feelings for Shepard in ME1 but didn't act on them. This is a reasonable explanation, but it's quite clear that this was never intended during ME1 itself; Kaiden shows no real romantic interest in male Shepard, beyond just being bros. Clearly, his orientation was 'changed' or if you prefer, 'expanded' to flesh out the options in ME3, as well as provide a bit of choice for gay Sheps (it's worth noting in this way that male Shep's sexual orintation also 'changes' in as much as he never had the option to show any interest in dudes before ME3).

The point I'm trying to make here is that Shepard defintely has no defined, canonical, sexuality. It has also been showed with Kaiden that the squadmates are also open to changing their views. From a meta point of view, this is also true. Bioware considered making various characters 'bi' in ME2, such as Thane and one of the women (I forget which one exactly, but it was definitely one of them; I believe it may have been Tali), but scrapped the idea. This goes to show that, due to the fact they were considering it, Bioware did not feel that making certain characters swing for both sides would significantly impact their character or the lore of the universe. This is of course obviously the case; whether someone likes men, women or both doesn't really have any impact on their overall personality. Take Kaiden as an example again; do you think differently about him in ME3 because of the fact he;s now open to guys as well as girls. He's still exactly the same guy he was with the same beliefs and personality traits. Nothing has been lost, yet for male Shepas who wanted a chance to get with him, something has definitely been gained.

This brings me back to the question of canon. Perhaps the most common and reasonable complaint against the idea of simply making everyone an option to either Shep is the fact that it would be unrealistic to have a ship crewed solely by bisexual people, or men who were gay and women who were straight (and vice-versa for female Shep). This is definitely true. The chances of the happening are quite remote (unless Shepard sneakily planned it that way). I fell, however, that there is a simple solution to this problem.

You see, whether the endings have soured the words or not, Bioware has always stated that there is no canon in their stories. That you, the player, make the canon. While certain auto-dialouges etc. have tarnished this notion, it still holds mostly true. There are players and therefore Shepards out there who would never in a million years choose Synthesis as a solution to the Reaper problem, yet there are other players and therefore Shepards out there for whom it is the only acceptable solution. There are glaxies out there where the geth or the quarians are extinct, where the genophage is either cured or not etc. The is, after all, a roleplaying game.

And just as these choices are non-canonical, neither is Shepard's sexuality or who he/he chooses as a partner. Therefore, is it too much of a stretch to have squadmates sexual orientation and interests also be not as strictly defined? I would say it's not.

Here's what I would propose (again, this is just a 'what if', not a request or expectation for DLC). The majority of squadmates already like/respect Shepard (if you're paragon with them, which you'd have to be to romance them anyway). The theoretical building blocks for a relationship exist with every squadmate. Tali is a prime example. As a femshep, your dialouge with her throughout the game in ME2 is almost identical to maleshep's, right up until the initiation of the romance. Various line which are seen as hints of her true feelings for maleshep (eg. I did get better, I got you), are also present for femshep; they're just never realised into a full romance. These lines are ambiguous, and assuming a player was playing for the first time, and had not read anything about the game, it's quite possible they would believe they were building up towards a romance between femshep and Tali, only to find out at the last moment that this can't happen. The same holds true for many of the other characters. Usually, the pre-romance dialouge is nearly identical regardless of whether you're male/female and whether you intend to romance that character or not.

So what am I trying to say? Well, perhaps we could have a so called 'romance dialouge option' (in actual fact, I always thought this was a good idea regardless of anything else I've said in this thread). Basically, this would be a special dialouge option that, similar to a paragon or renegade respose, would require a certain 'approval' score from the character to activate. It would be denoted in some way, maybe by by pink text (as opposed to the red and plue for specific paragon/renegade responses) or by a little heart next to it. Basically, as the name implies, this would be the choice that 'solidifies' your intention to romance this character, unlocks their coresponding romance path, and closes it off for other characters. Such a dialouge choice actually already exists in the game for each character (usually in the form of choosing yes or no to the question 'are you interested in me'), so this is nothing new; it would just be added clarity and specifically designate one response as the one that determines whether you begin a romance with that character or not.

This would be important because in the context of non-canonical sexuality/interest in Shepard, Shepard would have to pick this response to effectively show their interest. Keep everything exactly the same, just at some point in your building relationship with the character, rather than have them ask 'are you interested in me', have a dialouge option that Shepard could choose to express their interest. This monor reversal is important because it gives the player a way to basically sculpt the world around them.

To illustrate what I mean, let's take Garrus as an example. Let's say you're a maleshep, and you want to romance Garrus in ME2. You'd do exactly the same stuff that you do with female Shep, having the same conversations etc. right up until the point where in the game, the dialouge trees diverge. As it stands, if maleshep continues to talk to Garrus, he'll develop a friendly bromance with him, wheras if femshep continues to talk to Garrus, picking the right options, they develop a romance. At this point, instead, what you could have for both femshep and maleshep is a romance dialouge option, listed on the left hand side of the wheel in addition to the other standard dialouge choices (you could even have a paragon and a renegade romance dialouge option just for a bit of added variety). Picking one of these would continue the conversation, yet Shepard would make some kind of flirtatious remark or something; something to indicate the beginning of a romantic attraction.

However, if you didn't choose this option, everything continues as it would have done before. If maleshep passes up, Garrus continues along the exact same dialouge tree he had before, never giving any indication that he was interested in Shepard. And that's because he wasn't. Do you see what I'm tying to get at? Just make the characters sexuality a non-canonical thing, and you can scult the world how you see fit. Can you never imagine in a million years the slightest hint of a possibility that Garrus was gay? That's fine. In your ME universe, he wasn't. It was not that he was interested maleshep, but maleshep turned him down so they decided to be friends. By not taking the dialouge option to initiate romance, you effectively set the canon to be such that Garrus was never interested in men in the first place. The same would be true for every other character.

You seee, this disposes of the idea of an unrealistic 'ship full of bi people' scenario, and whatsmore, it would give you, the player, more freedom over the world.

Now, this would not necessarily be true for all characters. If an integral part of a characters storyline is their sexuality/whether or not their willing to enter into a relationship with someone, then that should remain. Eg. Samantha and Cortez are set up as homosexual characters right from the start, so they should probably remain that way. Similarly, Samara is not avilable because of her oaths, a defining part of her character, so she should also probably remain off limits.

Such a system would also allow for more 'out-there' kind of romances that would otherwise be unrealistic. Let's take Wrex as an example. I'm sure the vast majority of people would argue against Wrex being a romance option, and with the way the system currently works, they would be right. Wrex is a badass, and I'm sure it would annoy a lot of people if, just by talking wih him, they end up in a situation where their Shep has to either enter into a romance with him or shoot him down. It would make things very awkward for many people, and probably reduce their enjoyment of Wrex as a character. Yet, I am led to believe, that there are people out there who would want to romance him, so why not cater for both options? Using the method I suggested, players who would never ever want to see Wrex in that way wouldn't have to; they just ignore the dialouge choice when it appears and con tinue talking to the straight-up, badasses Wrex they know and love. Others meanwhile could take that option and indulge their frog-lizard fetish.

I believe such a system would have made much more sense and allowed for much more freedom in player choice. Not only is it clearer (avoid 'accidental' romances like Liara in ME1 and Jacob in ME2 where you were just trying to be nice and accidentally sleep with them), but by handing over the 'first move' to Shepard, it allows you to play around with the characters and romance who you like without it becomind preposterous. Sure, you could still have people exress and interest with Shepard; maintain their 'canonical' sexualities in that way, but why not give players the freedom to choose who they want? Like I said already, through such a system, you wouldn't be on a ship full of bi or gay people who all want to get in Shepards pants no matter who they are. You'd be on a ship with people of undefined/unknown sexuality which is then set in stone based on who Shepard chooses.

I realise this is a pretty long post (apologies for any spelling erros I missed). I hope I managed to make sense and convey my viewpoint clearly. Once again (to forestall the inevitable comments from people who just read the title and nothing else), I do not ever expect this to happen via DLC or any other means. I realise that the romances are now set in stone as they are (while I would love to see a 'Romance Pack' DLC, I find it highly unlikely that such a thing will happen). This is simply an interesting idea I had.

TL;DR: Characters sexualities should be non-canonical and defined through Shepards choices, much like other elements of the plot.

[ZombieGambit]

'Cause in the future everyone is bisexual?

I'm still weirded out/annoyed that Kaidan became bisexual all of a sudden in ME3, it really came out of left field. Had there been some indication starting from ME1 I wouldn't have cared.

Answer, no thanks. Not only would that require a lot of work for BioWare to add in the extra dialogue, cutscenes, and consequences it would just be plain weird.

[Zazzerka]

ZombieGambit wrote...
'Cause in the future everyone is bisexual?

No, they're whatever sexuality you choose for them. An MShep beds Garrus, Garrus is gay. An FShep beds Miranda, Miranda is a lesbian. (stay out of this, Taboo.)
Thats how I've interpereted it, anyway.

[Cheesesack]

GT Zazzerka wrote...

ZombieGambit wrote...
'Cause in the future everyone is bisexual?

No, they're whatever sexuality you choose for them. An MShep beds Garrus, Garrus is gay. An FShep beds Miranda, Miranda is a lesbian. (stay out of this, Taboo.)
Thats how I've interpereted it, anyway.

This is exactly what I meant, and the post above you seems to have missed the point. I am specifically arguing against the idea of everyne being bi, because I agree, that would be unrealistic.

[Cheesesack]

As for a lot of extra work for Bioware; it wouldn't have been really. With the existing romances, you'd just need the other Shepard voice actor to record the exact same lines, with perhaps a few tiny variations. For any new romances, well, considering how many romance scenes there are and how long each one is compared to the entire rest of the game, I can't imagine it would have increased the workload that much.

Modifié par Cheesesack, 08 septembre 2012 - 09:51 .

[ZombieGambit]

GT Zazzerka wrote...

ZombieGambit wrote...
'Cause in the future everyone is bisexual?

No, they're whatever sexuality you choose for them. An MShep beds Garrus, Garrus is gay. An FShep beds Miranda, Miranda is a lesbian. (stay out of this, Taboo.)
Thats how I've interpereted it, anyway.

Either way it's unrealistic because you can suddenly turn any character gay.

"Guess what, Shepard, I was actually gay the whole time. Surprise! We'll bang, okay?"

[Cheesesack]

ZombieGambit wrote...

GT Zazzerka wrote...

ZombieGambit wrote...
'Cause in the future everyone is bisexual?

No, they're whatever sexuality you choose for them. An MShep beds Garrus, Garrus is gay. An FShep beds Miranda, Miranda is a lesbian. (stay out of this, Taboo.)
Thats how I've interpereted it, anyway.

Either way it's unrealistic because you can suddenly turn any character gay.

"Guess what, Shepard, I was actually gay the whole time. Surprise! We'll bang, okay?"

Not that unrealistic since the idea is that they would have been gay all along. It's not someone being 'turned' gay by Shepard, it's the idea that their sexuality is undefined, and the fact when Shepard shows interest in them' it's 'revealed'. Thik of it like Schroidingers cat; they are both gay and straight (as in, their sexuality is unknown) until you observe them (select the romance dialouge option) at which point their sexuality is revealed. Besides, since you can only have one LI, at most you would have just one character 'turning' gay/straight/whatever.

[DBlack930]

ZombieGambit wrote...

'Cause in the future everyone is bisexual?

I'm still weirded out/annoyed that Kaidan became bisexual all of a sudden in ME3, it really came out of left field. Had there been some indication starting from ME1 I wouldn't have cared.

Answer, no thanks. Not only would that require a lot of work for BioWare to add in the extra dialogue, cutscenes, and consequences it would just be plain weird.

What GT said.  ^  The characters become whatever you want them to be, whether that's straight, gay, or bi.  Part of what makes the series so great is your ability to make choices that craft the story to you, personally, so more choices is always a good thing, in any aspect of the game.

And no, I don't think it would've been a "lot of work" to add in extra dialogue, since, among characters romancable by both genders, the dialogue is about 98% the same, no matter whether you're a broshep or a femshep.  Same for "consequences" (whatever that means ).  And cutscenes?  You script it the same, and tell the game to plug in either model.  If the cutscenes can handle all the variables of the thousands (or millions?) of possible custom faces, I think it can switch back and forth between body models with no problem.

It's obviously way too late to do anything about it now, but yeah, OP, I totally agree with you.  Would've been nice...

Modifié par W E C, 08 septembre 2012 - 10:02 .

[Vigilant111]

*

Modifié par Vigilant111, 08 septembre 2012 - 03:56 .

[wright1978]

GT Zazzerka wrote...

ZombieGambit wrote...
'Cause in the future everyone is bisexual?

No, they're whatever sexuality you choose for them. An MShep beds Garrus, Garrus is gay. An FShep beds Miranda, Miranda is a lesbian. (stay out of this, Taboo.)
Thats how I've interpereted it, anyway.

Yeah i've never had any problem compartmentalising my game universes but unfortunately they tried it in DA2 and most people hated the idea.

[Dragon_Claw]

^ This.

[Zazzerka]

wright1978 wrote...

GT Zazzerka wrote...

ZombieGambit wrote...
'Cause in the future everyone is bisexual?

No, they're whatever sexuality you choose for them. An MShep beds Garrus, Garrus is gay. An FShep beds Miranda, Miranda is a lesbian. (stay out of this, Taboo.)
Thats how I've interpereted it, anyway.

Yeah i've never had any problem compartmentalising my game universes but unfortunately they tried it in DA2 and most people hated the idea.

I don't have an opinion on that. I never played anything more than the demo for DA2. I prefer sci-fi. I do remember though, that a lot of people were complaining about being forced into gay relationships, but I can't be sure if it was as bad as all that.

[spockjedi]

I totally agree with the pink dialogue option, which I already suggested. Rejecting potential romance options every time you play gets quite annoying after multiple playthroughs, and I think Shepard should take the initiative of starting the romantic involvement.
But I still believe that at least some of the characters should be exclusive for MShep or FemShep. One of the greastest incentives to start a new playthrough with a Shepard from another gender is exploring new, exclusive romance options, whether they are S/S (Cortez, Traynor) or straight (Tali, Garrus). If everbody were bissexual (at least potentially), this wouldn't happen.
About Tali's dialogue, I think it was just laziness/resources saving. Non-bissexual characters should have different talks depending on Shepard's gender, even when talking friendly.

Modifié par spockjedi, 08 septembre 2012 - 03:45 .

[krukow]

In an RPG, you chose your character traits. Not everyone else's.

[lillitheris]

Didn’t read, because it’s kinda pointless now. It is what it is, not going to change.

…

I do suspect that we’ll once again run into “omg everun biseks” ‘argument’. I’m tired of seeing that, but also tired of arguing against it, so I’ll just say that there is a significant difference between:

1. A character who expresses interest in both sexes in the same playthrough (the same universe); and

2. A character who expresses interest in a single sex, but not always the same between playthroughs.

#1 is bisexual, #2 isn’t.

[Cheesesack]

krukow wrote...

In an RPG, you chose your character traits. Not everyone else's.

You choose which powers they level up; that's some of their character's 'traits' right there.

Modifié par Cheesesack, 08 septembre 2012 - 04:33 .

[Han Shot First]

I think overall the Mass Effect series has handled it well.

Some characters are hetrosexual, some are bisexual, and some are homosexual. Heterosexual characters can't be talked into a homosexual romance and homosexual characters can't be talked into a heterosexual one. And some, regardless of whether Shepard belongs to a sex they are normally attracted to, just aren't interested. You know, kind of like real life.

[spirosz]

Han Shot First wrote...

I think overall the Mass Effect series has handled it well.

Some characters are hetrosexual, some are bisexual, and some are homosexual. Heterosexual characters can't be talked into a homosexual romance and homosexual characters can't be talked into a heterosexual one. And some, regardless of whether Shepard belongs to a sex they are normally attracted to, just aren't interested. You know, kind of like real life.

Yep.  

[BP93]

No.

[Taboo]

Han Shot First wrote...

I think overall the Mass Effect series has handled it well.

Some characters are hetrosexual, some are bisexual, and some are homosexual. Heterosexual characters can't be talked into a homosexual romance and homosexual characters can't be talked into a heterosexual one. And some, regardless of whether Shepard belongs to a sex they are normally attracted to, just aren't interested. You know, kind of like real life.

This.

[Reptilian Rob]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

I think overall the Mass Effect series has handled it well.

Some characters are hetrosexual, some are bisexual, and some are homosexual. Heterosexual characters can't be talked into a homosexual romance and homosexual characters can't be talked into a heterosexual one. And some, regardless of whether Shepard belongs to a sex they are normally attracted to, just aren't interested. You know, kind of like real life.

A winner is you.

What happends if Miranda was only a S/S option though? LOL

I know you and Taboo would be ****ing up a storm. 

[DBlack930]

Han Shot First wrote...

I think overall the Mass Effect series has handled it well.

Some characters are hetrosexual, some are bisexual, and some are homosexual. Heterosexual characters can't be talked into a homosexual romance and homosexual characters can't be talked into a heterosexual one. And some, regardless of whether Shepard belongs to a sex they are normally attracted to, just aren't interested. You know, kind of like real life.

And if you wanted to play it that way in your own playthroughs, then that's great.  But why would you begrudge others the chance to experience the game in a different way that they might enjoy even more?  How would it negatively have affected you if another player wanted their Shepard to be with a character who BW ultimately chose to only make available to one gender but not the other?

Like I said before, more choices can just never be a bad thing...

[noxpanda]

W E C wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

I think overall the Mass Effect series has handled it well.

Some characters are hetrosexual, some are bisexual, and some are homosexual. Heterosexual characters can't be talked into a homosexual romance and homosexual characters can't be talked into a heterosexual one. And some, regardless of whether Shepard belongs to a sex they are normally attracted to, just aren't interested. You know, kind of like real life.

And if you wanted to play it that way in your own playthroughs, then that's great.  But why would you begrudge others the chance to experience the game in a different way that they might enjoy even more?  How would it negatively have affected you if another player wanted their Shepard to be with a character who BW ultimately chose to only make available to one gender but not the other?

Like I said before, more choices can just never be a bad thing...

I dont think its a case of begrudging others options at all. Sexual identity is a key component of a person's identity, at least in this day and age. Its part of what defines who they are, turning that 'off' so to speak does seem to trivilaise the characters a little.

I think what han said is very apt. I remember when in me2 jack shot down my femshep, my reaction was 'ah right fair enough' i didnt bemoan the lack of her being an option, i respected her character more for it. Same goes for ash and cortez in me3, i respect the fact that they arent interested in my femshep and off i toodle looking for someone who is. I think its a little unrealistic if shep could just sleep with whomever they chose, i know its a bit daft to be arguing realism in the context of video games, but ya know i am anyhow lol. I think theres enough options currently in me3, hell on my first couple of playthroughs i got mildly annoyed that all of a sudden it was all of the options lining up with 'hiiii, i like you, you like me?' it was like making a list of yes, nos and maybes. I have since taken to talking to the LI i want first to avoid all those annoying convos.

Personally id like a system where you could pick sexuality for your char at the start, and then have the option in various convos to hint at that sexuality or avoid the subject altogether. So as a female char, i could hint at the male options that i prefer women and they in turn would tune the flirting down a bit. Then with a female option you could hint and they would either tune the flirting up (if they were interested) or after a couple of convos turn you down (when they realised what your char was after). If you avoided talking about it altogether then maybe youd miss out on a couple of female options (as they hadnt realised the interest) and the male options would still be trying to get attention. Id prefer a system of subtler flirting slowly building into a relationship than the current fairly sudden friends - lovers!

I hope of this post made sense, im falling asleep at the keyboard.