39 réponses à ce sujet

[Saberchic]

W E C wrote...

And if you wanted to play it that way in your own playthroughs, then that's great.  But why would you begrudge others the chance to experience the game in a different way that they might enjoy even more?  How would it negatively have affected you if another player wanted their Shepard to be with a character who BW ultimately chose to only make available to one gender but not the other?

Like I said before, more choices can just never be a bad thing...

I liked Steve, so I made a manShep just for him.

It's not a bad thing either for people to try playing a different gender.

[Volc19]

Along with a few more LIs, this would be welcomed by me.

Go Legionmance or go home.

[Omega Torsk]

I don't support this because I need to hear a better excuse from people other than, "I liked this character and wanted to romance him/her based on my sexual preference."

Not to burst their politically correct bubbles, but real life doesn't work that way. Everyone is different and everybody has different sexual preferences and I'm glad that Bioware drew that line with the romances in the Mass Effect series.

The only character that I think should be bi is Jack, but that's because she talks about being such, yet the option isn't there.


*Edited to remove my snarkiness* Sorry, I'm just so tired of this seeing this, "make everybody bi because it would be fair" argument. I felt the ******/hetero relationships were balanced well in this game (other than the straight Femshep options, but that's another story) and that, for example, people are being unreasonable when they push to romance Ash instead of Traynor/Liara with their Femsheps JUST BECAUSE. Maybe it's not in the character's best interest? That's what makes the characters in Mass Effect so engaging; each are unique in their own ways.

Modifié par Omega Torsk, 09 septembre 2012 - 10:53 .

[Premier Bromanov]

I don't support this. I like for characters to be largely concrete, and only malleable insofar as roleplay elements go (this is one reason among many I didn't give DA2 even a look). As far as I'm concerned, Bioware settled this issue with ME3, by including homosexual LIs and by making Kaidan romanceable by MShep.

Modifié par Premier Bromanov, 10 septembre 2012 - 12:42 .

[Zoo Keeper Zeke]

I also do not support this. As suggested by others, we are roleplaying our Sheps, NOT the other characters, who should be more defined, not least in terms of sexual preference. Our only choice should be if we respond to their preference, not to change it.

That includes Jack. When speaking of her past in ME2 she passingly referenced having been with both sexes. But that doesn't mean she should forever be denied to actually have a preference (male Shep).

Modifié par Zoo Keeper Zeke, 10 septembre 2012 - 01:38 .

[Premier Bromanov]

Zoo Keeper Zeke wrote...

I also do not support this. As suggested by others, we are roleplaying our Sheps, NOT the other characters, who should be more defined, not least in terms of sexual preference. Our only choice should be if we respond to their preference, not to change it.

That includes Jack. When speaking of her past in ME2 she passingly referenced having been with both sexes. But that doesn't mean she should forever be denied to actually have a preference (male Shep).

I interpreted that as her having experimented in the past, and finding that she's indeed straight.  Your interpretation also works.

[DBlack930]

Y'know, I don't even have a dog in this fight, since I'm very happy to pair my Shep off with Liara and wouldn't look for another LI even if they were all available, but I'll say it again: I fail to understand how more choices could possibly be a bad thing.

Kaidan, for example.  Despite what anyone says, Kaidan isn't bi.  Oh, he can be, if you wanna headcanon that in as part of his backstory.  But otherwise, if your femshep romances him, he's straight.  If your maleshep does, he's gay.  Either way, he's still the same character.

2 of my favorite (non-Shepard) ships in the 'verse are Miranda/Jack and Vega/Cortez.  In the world of my ME story, those happened.  Off-screen, but they happened.  So does that change Miranda or Vega in anyone's eyes, to know that there's a percentage of the fanbase that sees them both as something other than 100% straight?  No?  Why not, because us seeing them that way doesn't make it "canon"?  LOL, isn't that the whole point of the series, that each player can create his or her own canon as they go along, deciding who lives, who dies, and even how the story ends?  'Canon' is already a very malleable concept.

If you didn't want Miranda, Jacob, Garrus, Ashley, etc to be gay, then you just needed to avoid hitting on them with your Shepard of the same gender, and boom--they're straight.  By why deny it to someone else who wants to play their own particular story that way?  I'm sorry, but I just have a problem anytime a majority makes a decision that doesn't affect them, but does affect a minority.

My last word on it, seeing as how it's a pretty pointless discussion.  The games have all been released, and apparently the majority got their way. 

Modifié par W E C, 10 septembre 2012 - 03:05 .

[krukow]

Kaidan is bi. He likes guys and girls.

He just happens to currently like whatever gender your shepard is.

But he's bi, that's his sexuality.

[DBlack930]

krukow wrote...

Kaidan is bi. He likes guys and girls.

He just happens to currently like whatever gender your shepard is.

But he's bi, that's his sexuality.

*Note to self: Never say "that's my last word on it," cuz someone's almost always gonna follow it up with something you can't help but reply to.*

I'll admit that Kaidan rarely survives ME1 in my playthrus... mostly since I find him duller than a box of rocks.  And I usually even avoid talking to him very much, since when I do he immediately thinks my femshep is interested in him, so I haven't explored all of his dialogue.  But I've watched a few of the romance scenes on youtube, and still haven't heard him tell femshep that he also likes men, or maleshep that he's also into women.  If he does, then correct me--please (and gimme a youtube link, cuz I'd be interested).

But if he never does, never hints at any preference other than your Shepard, then no, he's not bi.  He's whatever you choose for him to be in your story.

[krukow]

W E C wrote...

krukow wrote...

Kaidan is bi. He likes guys and girls.

He just happens to currently like whatever gender your shepard is.

But he's bi, that's his sexuality.

*Note to self: Never say "that's my last word on it," cuz someone's almost always gonna follow it up with something you can't help but reply to.*

I'll admit that Kaidan rarely survives ME1 in my playthrus... mostly since I find him duller than a box of rocks.  And I usually even avoid talking to him very much, since when I do he immediately thinks my femshep is interested in him, so I haven't explored all of his dialogue.  But I've watched a few of the romance scenes on youtube, and still haven't heard him tell femshep that he also likes men, or maleshep that he's also into women.  If he does, then correct me--please (and gimme a youtube link, cuz I'd be interested).

But if he never does, never hints at any preference other than your Shepard, then no, he's not bi.  He's whatever you choose for him to be in your story.

He's someone that can be sexually attracted to a man or a woman.  That's the definition of bi.

...how is this such a complex concept that you don't get it?

[DBlack930]

I'm going to resist responding to that with snark of my own, since I'd hate to see this thread get locked.  If we're going to have this conversation, could we please try to keep it polite and respectful?

Kaidan's sexuality is unknown, and in fact undefined until the player chooses to define it.  I take it that was a 'no' on my question about his dialogue, so when you romance him on a particular playthru, there's (apparently?) no indication that he's at all interested in both genders, making him either straight or gay in the canon of that one single playthru (unless you headcanon in a broader backstory for him).

I so didn't want to get into a 'Kaidan's sexuality' debate, but that's not really the point I'm arguing.  The point is creating your own canon, defining your own personal "Mass Effect" world the way you like it.  That the PC is the most customizable character in the game, but that the NPCs change by your actions, as well, and by the end of it the Kaidan in my story isn't the same as the Kaidan in yours, any more than our 2 Shepards are the same.

Cuz the fact is, if every Kaidan is bi, then every Shepard is, too.  Except, wait, you say your Shepard is straight?  (Never tried it once, not even back in college?  Maybe had a teeny bit too much to drink one night...?)  Yes, every John, Jane, and all the others are unique, but at the core he or she is still "Shepard", with common traits that carry across to every playthru... including the fact that he or she can be attracted to both men and women.  Therefore, by your logic, every Shepard is bi.

My point is that no, every Shepard is not bi, any more than every Kaidan is.  That, in that respect, there's no distinction between PCs and NPCs--at the end of the day, they're all still fictional characters in a fictional world that you interact with and shape their stories to a greater or lesser degree.  There's no one single 'canon' sexuality that applies to either of them across all playthrus, just as there's no one single 'canon' leader of Clan Urdnot, one single 'canon' LI, or one single 'canon' ending.  Those are all choices that are up to the individual.

Or, put more simply, to me things only become 'canon' when they're established thru the course of the game, and parts of that canon can change on susbsequent playthrus when you make different choices.

[krukow]

Kaidan doesn't change based on my choice. Shepard does.

Compare this to Ashley. Doesn't matter how you play, she only like Male Shepard. Ashley is straight. Traynor, on the other hand, only likes female Shepard. Traynor is gay. Kaidan likes any Shepard. Kaidan is bi.

We create our Shepard. Shep is what we want them to be. Kaidan is an established thing. And part of the established Kaidan is that he likes both men and women.

Get over it.

[DBlack930]

"Get over" what?  Honestly, dude, I'm really satisfied with just about everything in the games already, including the available LIs, and even the endings (  Sacrilege!  How dare I not hate them like everyone else?!).  Nothing to get over.  I'm just agreeing with the OP's opinion that the more choices the better, even tho, ironically, I wouldn't have taken any of those extra LI options myself (after all, if I wanted them I could mod most of them in already, and in most cases only be missing a handful of spoken lines of dialogue).  I just feel like for those who wanted more options, it would have been nice if they'd had them.  It wouldn't have affected any of my playthrus, so why should I care?  Better question is, since it seemingly wouldn't have affected yours, either, why do you care?

I'm probably an idiot for continuing this, but okay, I'll try again to make my point, since it seems to have been missed every time so far:

If you romance Kaidan with femshep, you never get even a hint that he also likes men.  If you play the game only once, and never hear anyone else discuss it, then as far as you know Kaidan is straight.  You have no way of getting inside his head and learning anything different.  (Compare that to Kelly, who will flirt, snuggle with, and dance for femshep, but also makes her attraction to some of the males on board very clear.  In a femshep playthru, at least, she is pretty clearly bi.)

And "Ashley is straight," huh?  Right, you know that because of the time she shot femshep's advances down and said, "Sorry, I'm only into guys"?  No, wait, she never did say that, did she?  So she's straight just cuz she shows no interest in femshep.  Maybe it was more a case of femshep never showing an interest in her, much like Kaidan didn't suddenly become gay in 3--it's just that he never responded to maleshep's advances in 1 because he never made any.  Maybe femshep should've taken a run at Ashley in 3; she might've found out she was just as bi gay whatever as Kaidan. 

Yeah, I know, you're going to say, "Everything we know about Ashley shows she has no interest in women, but Kaidan can be interested in both, therefore Ash is straight and Kaidan's bi."  And that's where we're talking past each other, cuz you're arguing it from all the facts that have been established in all possible outcomes, whereas I'm arguing it from the philosophy that every playthru is its own unique story and just because something's possible in one version of the tale doesn't mean it applies in another.  I don't think either viewpoint is "wrong"... tho I do think that you either A) don't understand what I'm saying, don't want to try to understand what I'm saying, or C) understand but think I'm wrong about the whole "neither viewpoint being wrong" thing. 

Like I said, I really didn't want to debate Kaidan's sexuality.  That was one small bit of a longer post that you chose to latch onto and argue.  My main point way back in the first thing I wrote about this tonight is that there are plenty of people out there who write fanfic and create fanart who already view most of the "straight" characters as being very slashable.  So if Miranda & Jack and Vega & Cortez hook up off-screen in the world of my story, does that negatively affect your experience, or how you view any of those characters?  No, of course not (or at least, I certainly hope it doesn't!)  Why?  Because it's not canon, and didn't happen in your story.  So femshep hooking up with Ashley (or maleshep with Jacob) in someone else's playthru shouldn't affect you, either, any more than someone else's Virmire decision does.  If they'd provided the extra options and you didn't like 'em, you didn't have to take 'em.  Simple as that.

Again, you're just supporting the decision to deny something to someone else who might've wanted it, even tho it in no way would've affected you.  Maybe that's what the "Get over it" referred to, in which case, no, I have a harder time getting over something like that.  <_<

[Cheesesack]

I wholeheartedly asgree with W E C; he seems to have understood what I was getting at (or had a similar viewpoint already).

To re-iterate, I am not suggesting that every character should be bi. That would be unrealistic and it would be annoying to have everyone constantly hitting on Shep when you just wanted to have a chat. I'm simply suggesting that their sexuality should be maeable and undefined so people can roleplay whatever pairing they want.

I agree that, in real life, a person's sexuality is a large part of their identity. Then again, it's far from the most definig characteristic. I've known some people for years, and one day they just casually mentioned to me that they're gay. I never noticed before because it didn't impact their behavior, and my opinion of them didn't change after they told me. To me they're just that person, with their own personality, sexuality is only a part of that.

Now, in a fictional universe, it's even less relevant. The characters in ME are defined by their moral alignments, opinions on galactic issues etc. moreso than their sexuality. With a few exceptions, no one ever really makes their sexual preference clear or talks about their ****** or heterosexuality. It only becomes apparent when you become un able to romance them. With that being the case, it clearly isn't a 'defining' aspect of their character, and thus making it maleable betwwen different playthroughs would not effet the character at all. Because that's what I'm saying; you would not alter their dialouge at all to reflect their potential to be interested in both Shepards (again, not bi), so it would in no way impact the playthroughs of people who did not want to romance that character. It would be up to the player to pick the optional romance dialouge option, which is then what would initiate the 'attraction' between them. So it's entirely up to you. The fact the potential exists does not impact you at all.

There are some renegade choices that I would never choose, but I don't think the fact that it's an option negatively affects my Shepard. Some people like them, and that's absolutely fine; I'm glad the choice exists for them (and I may choose it myself in a 'non-canon' playthrough just to see what it's like). Having the choice there doesn't mean my Shepard 'considered' it or something; it's a purely metagame mechanic. Similarly, having the romance dialouge option there would not mean this character was interested in your Shepard but was hiding it, thus changing the character for you. It means that it's simply an otion that you, the player, can choose form a metagaming perspective to influence the world around you.

I don't see why anyone could argue against this (although I welcome rational debate). It's just about the least intrusive way of handling it. It literally has zero impact on people who don't want anything to do with it, but it opens up possibilities for people who do.