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[MegaSovereign]

What a lot of people consider to be one of the best parts of ME3 is, IMO, some of the worst failures in storytelling of the game. Yes, it was incredibly, emotionally satisfying on the surface. In fact, I believe that's why so many people completely ignore some of the blatant flaws with its plot. It completely changed the direction of the Geth and introduced false dilemmas where they need not to be. Most of my analysis will actually be about the implications of the climax of the Rannoch arc.

Character inconsistency: Legion accepting Reaper Code upgrades as the path to achieve the Geth's future.



Legion's views of the Reaper Code in ME3 completely contradicts what we learned about him and the non-heretic Geth in ME2. Here are the direct quotes:

Legion: The Old Machines offered to give us our future. The geth will achieve their own future.

Shepard: What difference does it make how you acquire a certain technology?

Legion: Technology is not a straight line. There are many paths to the same end. Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives. Nazara -- Sovereign -- said this itself. "Your civilizations is based upon the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."

Their goal was to build a sphere that they can upload all their memories into so that way all Geth would no longer be alone. That's their future, or what it was originally. It was never about making each Geth unit become an individual life form. The ME2 Legion would never, ever accept "gifts" from the Reapers to advance the Geth race.

The counter argument here is that the Geth HAD to accept the Reaper code upgrades since the Quarians were on the verge of destroying them. This is true until the end of the Priority: Rannoch. Which brings me tooo:

The false dilemma





After destroying the Reaper signal, the Geth shut off. Now, Admiral Gerrel saw this as an opportunity to take out the Geth while they're down.

This entire scene is nonsensical. The player is expected to trust Legion to upload the Reaper Code (without it backfiring and giving the Geth to the Reapers...again) while they trying to persuade the Quarian fleet to stand down.

It's just so freaking stupid. Honestly I can't even articulate how stupid this scene is. It's such an obviously forced false dilemma. Why do I have to let Legion upload the Reaper code to get the optimal "peace" ending? He's a freaking machine, it'd be easier to persuade him using logic. "Hey uh Legion, remember what you said about accepting the Reapers' gifts? How the Reapers would be giving you your future and how you didn't want that?"

Don't even get me started on Legion's sacrifice. "I'm sorry Shepard, I mustgo to them." Come on, there is no reason why Legion would need to die in order to upload the code. It doesn't even make sense.


In conclusion, I feel like we should have been able to get both Gerrel and Legion to stand down. Instead we are forced to accept the "new" direction Bioware took with the Geth. Apparently the future of the Geth is to become humanoid. And I wholeheartedly disagree. The Geth were so interesting in ME2 because they truly did feel "alien."

Anyone else agree? 

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 08 septembre 2012 - 09:08 .

[D24O]

Yeah, Legion going all crazy over the Reaper code was not a good thing IMO. And you have to either tell him what he's doing is good, or tell him the geth are just mindless robots. I wish there was a way to proceed with the Geth as they were in 2. They didn't need to be changed IMO.

[David7204]

Don't use "fail" as a noun in your arguments. You're better than that.

Anyway, I don't think Legion has a problem with accepting technology as long as the geth are free to use it as they see fit. If Shepard destroys the collector base he even seems slightly surprised, saying "You even refused to use it on your own terms" or something like that.

Modifié par David7204, 08 septembre 2012 - 06:04 .

[MegaSovereign]

David7204 wrote...

Don't use "fail" as a noun in your arguments. You're better than that.

I can't really articulate my feelings toward it any better.

[AresKeith]

yea your right, everything behind the Story arc was really stupid

But I do understand why Legion wanted to use it

Modifié par AresKeith, 08 septembre 2012 - 06:05 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

While two of the admirals are more than willing to stand down, the others can only be forced to do so by assuring that you're letting the geth destroy them all if they don't turn the fleet around right this minute.

Makes sense to me.

[MegaSovereign]

David7204 wrote...

Don't use "fail" as a noun in your arguments. You're better than that.

Anyway, I don't think Legion has a problem with accepting technology as long as the geth are free to use it as they see fit. If Shepard destroys the collector base he even seems slightly surprised, saying "You even refused to use it on your own terms" or something like that.

Legion dialogue after destroying Collector Base:

An interesting choice Shepard-Commander. Your species was offered everything the Geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused to use the possibility of using the Old Machine's gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms.

You are more like us than we thought.

[Applepie_Svk]

Things which I hate about Rannoch, realy just bad writing:
It´s like one of these Homeworlds comics which were saying that Geths were there for thousand years or something like that...

Geth change of heart:
Geth seek the own future, the heretics ask for the future to old machines.

What the fu++ happened ? I thought that Legion in ME2 was pretty clear about Geths and their opinion on the Reapers.

Xen:
Mad sciencist obsessed with geths is now like playdoll which just hanging around whole Quarian-Geth conflict without single real impact on it, when I first time played ME3 I was waiting in each moment since I started with Rannoch where she will pull some kind of superweapon or supervirus which will subdue Geths well I was wrong...

Rannoch vehicle run:
Most obvious point where you can see how unfinished game was, it was just a 30 second but it was enough to realized emptiness of that scene.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 08 septembre 2012 - 06:17 .

[Pitznik]

Good post, I agree. But that makes it only easier to me to get rid of the f**cking Geth and their BS. We worship the Reapers! We hate the Reapers! We reject Reaper tech! We join the Reapers! We accept Reaper tech! Seriously, I'm tired of that, go DIAF.

Rannoch vehicle run was nice in showing what exactly gun can do against Destroyer.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Xen:
Mad sciencist obsessed with geths is now like playdoll which just hanging around whole Quarian-Geth conflict without single real impact on it, when I first time played ME3 I was waiting in each moment since I started with Rannoch where she will pull some kind of superweapon or supervirus which will subdue Geths well I was wrong...

She already has. That's why the geth had to resort to accepting Reaper code, negating her measures and then some.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Legion wised up. His philosophy from ME2 was broken nonsensical.

It would be like saying that a third world country accepting outdated tech from the US military will never advance beyond that technology. The premise of that is stupid. They can use it, AND they can develop alternatives in the process.

Accepting technology is NOT a bad thing. It's the smart thing to do.

[SpamBot2000]

Sure, you have a point. There are definitely problems with the way the Geth story came to a conclusion. But you know, being a big BioWare fanboy I just looked past that. Until Space Spook popped up, I could do that.

[MegaSovereign]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Legion wised up. His philosophy from ME2 was broken nonsensical.

It would be like saying that a third world country accepting outdated tech from the US military will never advance beyond that technology. The premise of that is stupid. They can use it, AND they can develop alternatives in the process.

Accepting technology is NOT a bad thing. It's the smart thing to do.

If that's actually the case then they could have at least addressed this with dialogue.

[I am disappoint]

Legion was doing what was best for the individual Geth platform.
It's clear from ME2 - ME3 he understood that Geth were better off not in the one giant platform, perhaps been locked up in the Dreadnought gave him time to think.

[chasemme]

David7204 wrote...

Don't use "fail" as a noun in your arguments. You're better than that.

Seconded.

I saw it as though the upgrade changed him. He went from thinking like a machine to thinking more like an organic, and to date, no organic had turned away the mass relays or eezo technology.
It's not a perfect argument, you're right that it's sort of a random character development. It's just not one that seemed too unreasonable, I guess?

As for the upload... no idea. One of the very few things I allowed to bother me at all during my first playthrough.

But really, the answer is clear, just kill the geth. No more weird upload, and you can write off the new outlooks as reaper influence that needs destroyed.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

MegaSovereign wrote...

If that's actually the case then they could have at least addressed this with dialogue.

He basically does, when you ask him why he sounds conflicted about disabling the Reaper signal.

In a nutshell, he says that while the Reapers have unethical methods, the Reaper-upgrades were inherently beneficial to the geth (minus the subjugation of freewill). When he's uploading the code independently, that's no longer going to be an issue.

You can also agree/disagree with him here on the topic of a fully-evolved AI being as valid as organic life.

[Vortex13]

I'm with you op, the Geth as a whole were a lot more interesting and "alien" as you put it in Mass Effect 2. The entire swarm intelligence of the Geth was very intriguing and one of the things I loved about them.

Legion's sudden 180 in 3 is disheartening to say the least, what happened to the true Geth's staunch opposition to accepting any Reaper tech? In Mass Effect 2 Legion said that the Geth didnt view organic life as better or worse then synthetic life, and then suddenly it's the one thing the Geth always wanted; to be just like everyone else.

[MegaSovereign]

chasemme wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Don't use "fail" as a noun in your arguments. You're better than that.

Seconded.

I saw it as though the upgrade changed him. He went from thinking like a machine to thinking more like an organic, and to date, no organic had turned away the mass relays or eezo technology.
It's not a perfect argument, you're right that it's sort of a random character development. It's just not one that seemed too unreasonable, I guess?

As for the upload... no idea. One of the very few things I allowed to bother me at all during my first playthrough.

But really, the answer is clear, just kill the geth. No more weird upload, and you can write off the new outlooks as reaper influence that needs destroyed.

So what you're saying is the only way to solve the inconsistency is to kill the Geth and betray my friend?

False dilemma. That's exactly what I'm ranting about.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 08 septembre 2012 - 06:42 .

[Jvolikas]

having just done my second Rannoch playthrough today I agree with how different Legion seemed from ME2 when he was so against the Old Machines' influence. Its still a great story arc but it fell short of what it could have been.

[MegaSovereign]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

If that's actually the case then they could have at least addressed this with dialogue.

He basically does, when you ask him why he sounds conflicted about disabling the Reaper signal.

In a nutshell, he says that while the Reapers have unethical methods, the Reaper-upgrades were inherently beneficial to the geth (minus the subjugation of freewill). When he's uploading the code independently, that's no longer going to be an issue.

You can also agree/disagree with him here on the topic of a fully-evolved AI being as valid as organic life.

But that's not even related to the issue at hand.

I think EDI is as valid as any organic being. The Geth however never strived to be more "organic." Legion himself in ME2 described applying morals and ethics to a synthetic race as "racist." 

At bare minimum there should have been dialogue options to discuss why Legion had a sudden change of heart. Or at least a neutral option about what Shepard thinks about AIs in general.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 08 septembre 2012 - 06:47 .

[JesseLee202]

I agree 100% OP.

More reasons why I end the Geth on Rannoch.

[Vigilant111]

The way I see it is that the upgrade makes them more alive if they are not already so... this somehow convinces the Quarians that the Geth is actually a people rather than just machines...

[dirty console peasant]

Using the reaper upgrades does not contradict legions lines in ME2 where he/it states that the geth create their own future. It simply allows for them to be more "intelligent" it does not give them technology that they then use. An analogy would be if there was a way to modify everyone to increase their brainpower. It does not specify a specific technological path it simply allows for better understanding. As I understand it though, the geth still get more intelligent around other geth units.

[MegaSovereign]

Vigilant111 wrote...

The way I see it is that the upgrade makes them more alive if they are not already so... this somehow convinces the Quarians that the Geth is actually a people rather than just machines...

You have to change a race of people in order for conflict not to exist? 

So what you're saying is...The Reapers are right?