164 réponses à ce sujet

[Vigilant111]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

The way I see it is that the upgrade makes them more alive if they are not already so... this somehow convinces the Quarians that the Geth is actually a people rather than just machines...

You have to change a race of people in order for conflict not to exist? 

So what you're saying is...The Reapers are right?

It is not ideal, but the Quarians up until now do not accept the Geth as people, getting the upgrade is a short cut, because I think Legion said that the Geth eventually will reach the stage of being "alive"

No, this has nothing to do with the reapers, they simply provided the tools of which the Geth could exploit immediately, obviously this could backfire because now the Quarians will fear them even more

Getting the upgrade means you will earn the trust of all Geth, while other factors lead to the trust of the Quarians

[MegaSovereign]

Vigilant111 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

The way I see it is that the upgrade makes them more alive if they are not already so... this somehow convinces the Quarians that the Geth is actually a people rather than just machines...

You have to change a race of people in order for conflict not to exist? 

So what you're saying is...The Reapers are right?

It is not ideal, but the Quarians up until now do not accept the Geth as people, getting the upgrade is a short cut, because I think Legion said that the Geth eventually will reach the stage of being "alive"

No, this has nothing to do with the reapers, they simply provided the tools of which the Geth could exploit immediately, obviously this could backfire because now the Quarians will fear them even more

Getting the upgrade means you will earn the trust of all Geth, while other factors lead to the trust of the Quarians

My problem has little to do with trusting Legion with the code, even though that is part of it.

Legion never once stated in ME2 that their goal was to become more "alive" (AKA, humanoid). Their goal was to no longer be alone...To share memories with each other and become connected. 

If Bioware absolutely needed to create a false dilemma at the end of Priority: Rannoch, then they should have at least made the Code upgrade something that would further advance the Geth to become less alone. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

MegaSovereign wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

You can also agree/disagree with him here on the topic of a fully-evolved AI being as valid as organic life.

But that's not even related to the issue at hand.

I know, I was just saying. It's part of that short exchange.

[spirosz]

They wanted to provoke a sad scene, they did, but in cost of his established mindset in ME2 - people wanted emotion and we got it! The more I see it though, the more I don't like the scene as much as I used to because of your stated reasons. When I first experienced the scene, I got really emotional, which is what I believe Bioware wanted - that first reaction! I was really thinking in too much detail about what was spoken of, since ME2 because I was in the "moment", if you get what I mean and just going with the flow, but now that I look back at it, meh.

Still, *sadface*

[Vigilant111]

MegaSovereign wrote...

My problem has little to do with trusting Legion with the code, even though that is part of it.

Legion never once stated in ME2 that their goal was to become more "alive" (AKA, humanoid). Their goal was to no longer be alone...To share memories with each other and become connected. 

If Bioware absolutely needed to create a false dilemma at the end of Priority: Rannoch, then they should have at least made the Code upgrade something that would further advance the Geth to become less alone. 

The Quarians do not see the Geth as people, they see them as deadly machines, as long as the Quarians see them as such, they will not back down. Yes, this is not the Geth's truth goal, but it is what the peace requires. In order for peace to happen, the Quarians must change their perspectives about the Geth

Put it this way, it is not a crime if you killed a bunch of machines, but it is a crime to kill people, the Quarian people will find it hard to commit genocide when there are a bigger problem to worry about aka the reapers

[MegaSovereign]

Vigilant111 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

My problem has little to do with trusting Legion with the code, even though that is part of it.

Legion never once stated in ME2 that their goal was to become more "alive" (AKA, humanoid). Their goal was to no longer be alone...To share memories with each other and become connected. 

If Bioware absolutely needed to create a false dilemma at the end of Priority: Rannoch, then they should have at least made the Code upgrade something that would further advance the Geth to become less alone. 

The Quarians do not see the Geth as people, they see them as deadly machines, as long as the Quarians see them as such, they will not back down. Yes, this is not the Geth's truth goal, but it is what the peace requires. In order for peace to happen, the Quarians must change their perspectives about the Geth

Put it this way, it is not a crime if you killed a bunch of machines, but it is a crime to kill people, the Quarian people will find it hard to commit genocide when there are a bigger problem to worry about aka the reapers

Again, it's either let the Quarians kill off the Geth or let Legion change the Geth into something they originally weren't.

That's why the climax sucks..

[Cainne Chapel]

I dont mind it as much because lets not forget, Legion , while our voice into the geth and probably they're most advancted platform. Doesnt exactly control the consensus.

They basically opened pandoras box as I saw it, accepting tech from the reapers so that they werent wiped out. Logically speaking it makes sense. While its not a future you originally wanted, its much preferable to being erased.

I would imagine the new code unlocked new possibilites for them to be come truly independent "life forms" in a sense. The fact that they no longer wanted to be "alone" in me2, suggests they are becoming emotional platforms, heck the fact that there's a schism between the two factions and that they were spying on each other, also shows a bit of human emotion in there.

All ME3 did is make it go full bore, and now that they have the reaper upgrades they consider themselves "alive" and now have individuality in a sense.

That can be a good and a bad thing depending on how you look at it. Now it seems they've each become they're own "nation" like the reapers. So in a sense they are no longer alone, as each platform is its own world now.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Vigilant111 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

My problem has little to do with trusting Legion with the code, even though that is part of it.

Legion never once stated in ME2 that their goal was to become more "alive" (AKA, humanoid). Their goal was to no longer be alone...To share memories with each other and become connected. 

If Bioware absolutely needed to create a false dilemma at the end of Priority: Rannoch, then they should have at least made the Code upgrade something that would further advance the Geth to become less alone. 

The Quarians do not see the Geth as people, they see them as deadly machines, as long as the Quarians see them as such, they will not back down. Yes, this is not the Geth's truth goal, but it is what the peace requires. In order for peace to happen, the Quarians must change their perspectives about the Geth

Put it this way, it is not a crime if you killed a bunch of machines, but it is a crime to kill people, the Quarian people will find it hard to commit genocide when there are a bigger problem to worry about aka the reapers

The quarians do not back down because the geth become people. They back down because the geth can once again fight back effectively and the combination of 'they don't want to fight you' and 'but they can destroy you at will' finally gets through some of the thicker heads.

[N7 Lisbeth]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Don't even get me started on Legion's sacrifice. "I'm sorry Shepard, I mustgo to them." Come on, there is no reason why Legion would need to die in order to upload the code. It doesn't even make sense.

I don't believe this scene was ever supposed to make sense. It was supposed to be a really ham-handed way of getting players comfortable with the idea of self-sacrifice and the nobility of it, prior to  the ending, which does that exact thing. Except this time it's yours.

There's really a great deal of that in the game. Mordin does the self-same thing on Tachunka and Shepard even goes so far to say that she/he is certain Mordin is keeping a spot for us. Shepard even alludes to her or his death  more than once, saying "[I'll make this happen] or die trying," or "I'll sleep when I'm dead," and EDI (on the bridge between missions) saying she can't believe you have defied the probability of surviving as long as you have. Nevermind the foreshadowing from the whole suicide mission of ME2.

We are being shown the way, to follow by example, by the sacrifices of people we admire, respect, and love. We are being shown that self-sacrifice is noble and to be valued, not struggled against (all struggles to get these sacrifices to see the possibility of another outcome, through paragon interrupts which are present, do nothing). Although clearly effective, it's a blunt way to do it.

I like dark endings, but despite the foreshadowing, there was an equal amount of hinting and loose ends to tie up afterwards that indicated you could survive. Conversations with your love interest, Javik's Memory Shard being entrusted to you to carry on its legacy, and so many others I could go three posts just reciting them.

Ultimately, I think my disagreement with the endings as they stand is largely due to the expectation that was fostered throughout the game that it could have gone either way. If there were no loose ends, and more closure, I wouldn't feel the way I do.

Modifié par N7 Lisbeth, 08 septembre 2012 - 07:46 .

[fainmaca]

I'm disappointed that the scene promotes only the viewpoint that the Geth need the Reaper Code to be 'alive'. I'd always held the viewpoint that the Geth were already alive, something that I'd picked up from the portrayal of Legion and Geth society in ME2. Kinda feels like they're forcing the entire race through this pinocchio narrative with no room for the alternate view of synthetics as living beings. It means we lose a segment of our galaxy's diversity, the unique perspective of the shared consciousness of the Geth. Instead, they need to become more like us to be a viable form of life.

Also Legion's arbitrary death is annoying. If they had to force the 'I'm a real boy!' storyline, they could have at least made it possible to get him out alive. But no, he was too popular for them not to kill him for an extra hard tug at our heartstrings.

[DirtySHISN0]

They are alive as a collective, but cannot exist intelligently as single programs, they require collective interaction to be as sophisticated as EDI. So as individuals removed from the collective its harder to decide if they are alive or not. Like a cell taken from skin, its alive, but is it?

[chasemme]

MegaSovereign wrote...

So what you're saying is the only way to solve the inconsistency is to kill the Geth and betray my friend?

False dilemma. That's exactly what I'm ranting about.

Well that last line was only really meant to be taken semi-seriously.

But, I stand by my point. Legion changed his mind. That part is true. Legion has reaper code. Also true. People change their minds based on new perspective all the time. So either he changed his mind based on what he now thinks is best, and you either trust him or you don't. Or he's under reaper control, and he needs to be killed.

The only break in narrative that bothers me is the upload part.

[Vigilant111]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

The quarians do not back down because the geth become people. They back down because the geth can once again fight back effectively and the combination of 'they don't want to fight you' and 'but they can destroy you at will' finally gets through some of the thicker heads.

I conceed, this would be a plausible explanation if the context of the whole trilogy is taken into account, more plausible than my own. So the reaper code effectively made the Quarians back down because they could not take more losses since the likelihood of defeating the Geth has decreased substantially, point taken

Modifié par Vigilant111, 08 septembre 2012 - 08:06 .

[obZen DF]

Maybe Legion changed his view because of the Reaper invasion?

Also, the reason why Legion has to die is completely beyond my comprehension. Haha, see what I did thur.

[MegaSovereign]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Most of the things OP says are only really problems if you don't kill the geth. If you do kill them, you manage to avoid these issues.

Having to kill the Geth to mitigate these problems is a problem in itself.

[obZen DF]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Not for me it isn't. Garrus said it bes after Rannoch: "The geth spilled a lot of blood, and I'm not sorry to see them go".

But Garrus is just the ultimate Renegade bad-a**

[MegaSovereign]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Not for me it isn't. Garrus said it bes after Rannoch: "The geth spilled a lot of blood, and I'm not sorry to see them go".

I like the Geth

I just don't like the direction Bioware took them.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 08 septembre 2012 - 09:00 .

[InvincibleHero]

That's the whole problem people do not really understand the geth. They are slaves to logic and information. They have no morals and do what suits the geth always.

A human can give their word and mean it ,hence peace treaties can exist and are honored. The geth can say one thing and 10 seconds later new info invalidates that and new consensus is we do the opposite of what was stated.

The reaper upgrades gave the geth what it desired right now. It outweighed anything. It did not care about the effect on the whole universe just what the geth would gain by it. You make the mistake in thinking geth or even Legion care about any organics at all except maybe Legion towards Shepard maybe. It does what it does to the benefit of the collective. If your needs cooincide it will cooperate. If not then their neeeds> anything else. They cannot do otherwise. Geth must come first. it will not agonize what will the humans or krogan think of this and back offf. No it will think geth benefit from this period.

Legion while it can think independently has to obey the consensus. Anything it said in ME2 is not necessarily the view of the consensus. This view can change instantly in any case.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 08 septembre 2012 - 09:07 .

[Ownedbacon]

Legion, the Geth and the Reapers origins are quite different in ME2 than they are in 3. I find it funny how much of Mass Effect lore is deliberately altered just to fit ME3's ending. Walters has outdone George Lucas with retcons and lore breaking changes. Like the prequel trilogy to the original Star Wars, Lucas shouldn't have to alter the originals to make the prequels work. Just as the lore established in ME1 and ME2 shouldn't be altered to fit an ending that Walter's wants to work.

[Maias227]

Well I personally liked the scene as I saw it as the show down between the master and freed slave there had been going. When you ask Legion why they adopted the reaper help to begin with it was a fear of being crushed by the organics.

[SeptimusMagistos]

I never felt like the point of the upgrade was to make the geth more 'alive'.

Upgrading themselves to that each of the VIs becomes a full-fledged AI and can be considered a person in itself as well as part of the consensus seems like an obvious advantage to me. They aren't trying to become more like organics - they're just trying to become better.

[InvincibleHero]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

I never felt like the point of the upgrade was to make the geth more 'alive'.

Upgrading themselves to that each of the VIs becomes a full-fledged AI and can be considered a person in itself as well as part of the consensus seems like an obvious advantage to me. They aren't trying to become more like organics - they're just trying to become better.

I have a similar view. It benefitted the geth so everything else is irrelevant.

[fr33stylez]

'Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives.'

If the Geth had a change of heart about accepting technology, we as an audience need to know why. Otherwise, it can't be viewed as anything but out of character.