164 réponses à ce sujet

[Hrothdane]

I truly enjoyed the geth as Legion presented them in ME2. I admired their hardline stance on self-determination and their unique method of intelligence. They were the only alien race that actually felt as though it had a fully-developed set of values "alien" to human values.

If Legion could have at least explained the change in values, I would still be disappointed, but I would be less upset.

The way I make sense of it in my personal headcanon is that it is my own fault for rewriting the geth heretics. Legion said they would return to the consensus and share their experiences, so I assume that something they shared caused a change in values based on the new information.

[Asebstos]

The concept of a "fully" evolved AI lost me a bit. ME3 has a few issues with the concept of evolution. The writers appear to believe that there's some sort of achievable apex.

[Cainne Chapel]

Well I took his explanation at face value, they "panicked" due to being attacked and accepted the Reapers help and upgrade to be able to fend off the Quarians.

Its not like legion alone could of stopped it, dont forget he was also used as a power source and "trapped" Im assuming that wasnt done willingly.

Lets also not forget it was only in ME2 we learned that the geth we fought were "heretics" theres new revelations all the time on the geth, this wasnt that unbelievable

[MetioricTest]

I disagree with the TC on all fronts apart from "Legion has to die" which yes was very contrived.

But listen to what Legion says. He didn't refuse the Reaper upgrades because he hates upgrades he just didn't want to follow the Reapers. He wanted to make his own path.

In ME3 he tells you that he can upgrade the Geth to a point of self-aware high intelligence WITHOUT the Reaper code risk.

Don't you see? All the Geth are now intelligent and self-aware, able to make their own choices and suffer their own consequences.

The heretics are more intelligent, but merely pawns of the Reapers.

A bad metaphor for my point:

Scenario A: "I'll give you a delicious pizza if you shine my shoes."

Scenario B: "There's a delicious pizza here..."

[Eterna]

Legion is a robot, he has no general emotion about anything, he and other Geth only deal in logic and solutions that bring about the best scenario.

If they came to the consensus that the Reaper code would allow the Geth to achieve the best possible outcome of course they would choose it, because denying it implies they have emotion.

[Ace of Dawn]

MetioricTest wrote...

I disagree with the TC on all fronts apart from "Legion has to die" which yes was very contrived.

But listen to what Legion says. He didn't refuse the Reaper upgrades because he hates upgrades he just didn't want to follow the Reapers. He wanted to make his own path.

In ME3 he tells you that he can upgrade the Geth to a point of self-aware high intelligence WITHOUT the Reaper code risk.

Don't you see? All the Geth are now intelligent and self-aware, able to make their own choices and suffer their own consequences.

The heretics are more intelligent, but merely pawns of the Reapers.

A bad metaphor for my point:

Scenario A: "I'll give you a delicious pizza if you shine my shoes."

Scenario B: "There's a delicious pizza here..."

Quite right.

The Geth's initial reaction to going to the Reapers in ME3 is pretty much sound. It was literally fight or die in their case, they had little chance of victory otherwise. As he put, with their reduced intelligence due to the initial attack, they chose to go to the Reapers and that sacrifice of free will was an acceptable alternative to extermination.

Now then, the crux of the issue: Reaper code upgrades.

It isn't so much that he went against his position, but that the situation had changed. As a whole, the Geth deemed it a poor choice to ally with Sovereign and gain any benefits because they understood that it came with strings attached: loss of free will, dependency on Reapers, and inability to charter their own path.

On Rannoch, once free from the Reapers, they were presented a new situation. They now had access to Reaper codes, which allowed them to gain true independent intelligence. The Reaper code upgrade no longer forced the Geth to be slaves to Reaper, were not dependent on Reapers, and were still free to build on their own terms and path.

Scenario:

Imagine while strolling along the beach you find an advanced piece of technology, years ahead of anything we could develop.

If we follow what you perceive is the Geth's ideas on the matter, then we don't do anything with it. It "takes away" your ability to make your own path.

But based on how ME3 played out, they wouldn't have done that. Discovering it, they would research it and build off it in their own ways. It wasn't forced upon them, they weren't seeking it, and there is no adverse effects to them.

And that's the key. The Geth weren't seeking improved intelligence, they saught survivial. Once the dust settled, they had a tool on the beach. Something they could freely grab, use, and still allow them to advance in their own way.

Ultimately, you seek to apply human-based logic to synthetic/mathematical-logic. They clearly had leagues to gain, with no loss. It doesn't go against their ideals, it went against a decision based on a specific situation, to gain something they always wanted and could upon further, later.

Beyond that, it would be illogical to not take the upgrade (again, it betters them with no strings attached). Also, as the refuse ending so clearly demonstrates, holding stubbornly may help you go to sleep at night, but at the end of the day: everyone dies because you let some ethical ideal get in the way of making an otherwise logical decision (saving people!)

[grey_wind]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Legion wised up. His philosophy from ME2 was broken nonsensical.

It would be like saying that a third world country accepting outdated tech from the US military will never advance beyond that technology. The premise of that is stupid. They can use it, AND they can develop alternatives in the process.

Accepting technology is NOT a bad thing. It's the smart thing to do.

Not when you're fully aware that that technology is left there to make it easier to kill you.

And the problem with your analogy is that nobody understood how the relays worked even after millenia of using them. By accepting technology that you don't really understand but can use, it's easy to fall into the trap of simply using that technology without looking for any alternatives becuase 1) you simply can't and 2) this tech makes your life really easy. As such, you're restricted because you've made your entire society reliant on that technology without the ability to do anything (but be left to suffer) if something goes wrong with it. That's what Legion meant in ME2.

And the same problem holds with the Reaper code in ME3. The Geth don't even know how it works, and Legion uploads it to every Geth unit to make it easier to achieve "true intelligence" (whatever the hell that is). Tomorrow if something went wrong with the Geth thanks to this lovely Reaper code, the only solution would be to destroy them because nobody understands it enough to fix the problem.

[Vortex13]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Not for me it isn't. Garrus said it bes after Rannoch: "The geth spilled a lot of blood, and I'm not sorry to see them go".

I like the Geth

I just don't like the direction Bioware took them.

^ This

[teh DRUMPf!!]

grey_wind wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Legion wised up. His philosophy from ME2 was broken nonsensical.

It would be like saying that a third world country accepting outdated tech from the US military will never advance beyond that technology. The premise of that is stupid. They can use it, AND they can develop alternatives in the process.

Accepting technology is NOT a bad thing. It's the smart thing to do.

Not when you're fully aware that that technology is left there to make it easier to kill you.

... and that backfired. We advanced to a point where we beat them. If humanity never got off Earth, we would have gone the way of the drell (extinct through overpopulation) without the Reapers ever getting involved with us. Humanity lead the charge against the Reapers, and won (if you didn't refuse in the end).

So yes, we may have advanced along the Reapers' paths, but we all advanced beyond the point where they could beat us, so that point becomes moot.

Here's Javik putting a foot in Legion's mouth: "No species has time to 'earn' it, the Reapers always destroy them. Without our knowledge, you would have no hope of winning the war."

And the problem with your analogy is that nobody understood how the relays worked even after millenia of using them. By accepting technology that you don't really understand but can use, it's easy to fall into the trap of simply using that technology without looking for any alternatives becuase 1) you simply can't and 2) this tech makes your life really easy. As such, you're restricted because you've made your entire society reliant on that technology without the ability to do anything (but be left to suffer) if something goes wrong with it. That's what Legion meant in ME2.

That's a different issue entirely: that technology makes us complacent. The solution is... don't become complacent.

Nobody studied the relays in this cycle because the asari prohibited it. But apparently, the Protheans knew enough to rebuild one from scratch, and that saved the galaxy later after they returned to the Citadel and rewrote the keepers.

Again, the Reapers' plan backfired in a big way.

And the same problem holds with the Reaper code in ME3. The Geth don't even know how it works, and Legion uploads it to every Geth unit to make it easier to achieve "true intelligence" (whatever the hell that is). Tomorrow if something went wrong with the Geth thanks to this lovely Reaper code, the only solution would be to destroy them because nobody understands it enough to fix the problem.

First, the upload allows them to achieve individual intelligence. That is, they don't have to rely on being networked to others in great numbers to have intelligence, when individually they have "no more intelligence than a varren" per Tali.

Second, they've already been outfitted with it, so they do know how it works. The only negative was that the Reapers were controlling them, but that didn't come from the code anyway - it was the signal-transmitter in the geth dreadnought and the planetside Reaper Destroyer.

And in the end, it was the only way to save the geth, so it was ultimately a matter of need. Xen's new toy made the geth completely vulnerable to the quarians. Then you have Gerrel who proved on the geth-dreadnought mission that he'll strike at an opportune target even if Shepard own life is at risk.

So, without the threat of the geth wiping them out, there's nothing to stop Gerrel from doing what we wants. Not even Shepard's legendary talk-jutsu. It's Gerrel's fleet.

[4stringwizard]

What bothered me most about the whole arc (aside from the complete 180 Legion does) is that it basically says it's okay to side with a galactic monster (The Reapers) when backed into a corner to save your own skin. Which is completely opposite of what Shepard had been fighting for the whole time (and completely opposite of the philosophy of the game).

[SparkyRich]

MegaSovereign wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Don't use "fail" as a noun in your arguments. You're better than that.

I can't really articulate my feelings toward it any better.

"Failure" is the noun form of "fail."

[Ace of Dawn]

4stringwizard wrote...

What bothered me most about the whole arc (aside from the complete 180 Legion does) is that it basically says it's okay to side with a galactic monster (The Reapers) when backed into a corner to save your own skin. Which is completely opposite of what Shepard had been fighting for the whole time (and completely opposite of the philosophy of the game).

Arguably, that's the point.

This is war. A war against an enemy that has millions of years of experience in war. That wants to see your complete destruction. That turns your friends into traitors, and your corpses into combatants.

When it comes right down to it, your ideals are irrelevant. Your philosophy is irrelevant. It's great you have good intentions and want to survive with your integrity in tact, but...

Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters.

The Geth faced death, and in a moment of panic, they chose the Reapers. The most mathematicaly logical beings in the galaxy would rather take a chance to continue on as slaves, than be outright elminated.

[RiouHotaru]

The geth needed the Reaper code because otherwise they CANNOT be individuals. Remember, under normal circumstances a single program is about as sentient as a wild animal. With the Reaper Code, every individual program is now a fully-fledged and realize independent entity.

[SeptimusMagistos]

4stringwizard wrote...

What bothered me most about the whole arc (aside from the complete 180 Legion does) is that it basically says it's okay to side with a galactic monster (The Reapers) when backed into a corner to save your own skin. Which is completely opposite of what Shepard had been fighting for the whole time (and completely opposite of the philosophy of the game).

It was never implied this was 'okay.' Legion explains that the geth made the decision in a moment of panic and is clearly ashamed of the whole thing.

[TheCrazyHobo]

It is all the Quarians fault....

And I am being serious.

[fr33stylez]

RiouHotaru wrote...

The geth needed the Reaper code because otherwise they CANNOT be individuals. Remember, under normal circumstances a single program is about as sentient as a wild animal. With the Reaper Code, every individual program is now a fully-fledged and realize independent entity.

And when did this become the goal of the Geth?

[DirtyPhoenix]

I always took it as their perspective changing. they saw what the codes could do, and they liked it. Sure the game does a shoddy work of depicting that. But that happens all the time in life. They should have included more dialogs and investigate options, maybe more events and stuff, make it seem like a smooth curve rather than a step function. :S

[dreman9999]

Here's your problem with the concept of that op....What to stop the reapers from taking control of the geth again if the geth don't have the upgrades to stop them from doing that?

The reaper code stops that. Legion came to his decision based on logic. To be able to stop the reapers we are using their tech. We are doing this to.

[dreman9999]

4stringwizard wrote...

What bothered me most about the whole arc (aside from the complete 180 Legion does) is that it basically says it's okay to side with a galactic monster (The Reapers) when backed into a corner to save your own skin. Which is completely opposite of what Shepard had been fighting for the whole time (and completely opposite of the philosophy of the game).

Who said it was ok? Seeing that the geth did it was to servive is just empathy.  Saying this is like say people are ok with starving people staling food.

[MegaSovereign]

I understand the Geth needing to use the Reaper code to save themselves BEFORE the events of Priority: Rannoch.

I'm talking about AFTER we take out that Reaper base. Legion clearly doesn't NEED to apply the Reaper code upgrades. He's doing it because he believes it is the way his kind must evolve as a race. This contradicts everything Legion revealed about the Geth in ME2. This is what I have a problem with.

[zombieord]

All I can think about is, where's Tali? You monster!

[What a Succulent Ass]

...SLOWPOKE.JPG.

[Star fury]

So you want to take away one of the two good parts in entire game from Bioware?

[Suspire]

I'm with you OP, it's something that bothers me a lot.
Basically, by Legion's words, the geth weren't even "truly alive" before the reaper code ( "evolve"), so I don't know why I bothered with them in ME2 (?!). I helped them for nothing, stupid Legion should have spared me the work. Dude don't ask me for me to risk my life for you to only change your mind later! (I have learned not to trust bipolar machines that day hah!)
It is the silly notion that synthetics can't just be cool robots and AI and whatnot that think and behave in total strange and incompatible ways to us, but they need instead to be more like organics to be real, therefore, the Pinocchio story.
EDI behaves more and more "like a real person" too (real person = human).
All the questioning and wondering "what is life" of ME2 is out the window.

ME has this thing, and a lot of other fiction has it, about humanity and Earth as something awesome, as proof of the miracle of life, as a precious snowflake. The aliens have human personalities and a lot of them are -humanoid-.
I never even liked the Alliance and always sided with the aliens, and I wanted to actually play an alien when I first started playing ME. Why would boring humans I see everyday be more interesting when I could have endless creativity in a sci-fi rpg.
But what should I expect when even in reality everyone thinks of alien life by Earth's standards.

It's the only reason why I think they could have gone with this Pinocchio theme. And cause they had no idea what to do with too little time to finish the game, so just go with cliche plot. And cause they needed to put more reaper things in the world (for some evil reason).
Legion's death was just another "kill off beloved characters for emotional effect and to show that we mean srs bzns and anyone can die" event, so I was hardly moved.

Modifié par Suspire, 09 septembre 2012 - 08:19 .

[dreman9999]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I understand the Geth needing to use the Reaper code to save themselves BEFORE the events of Priority: Rannoch.

I'm talking about AFTER we take out that Reaper base. Legion clearly doesn't NEED to apply the Reaper code upgrades. He's doing it because he believes it is the way his kind must evolve as a race. This contradicts everything Legion revealed about the Geth in ME2. This is what I have a problem with.

He only found the need to do it after. As stated before, what is stopping the reaeprs from hacking the geth when they don't have the reaper code?