164 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Suspire wrote...

I'm with you OP, it's something that bothers me a lot.
Basically, by Legion's words, the geth weren't even "truly alive" before the reaper code, so I don't know why I bothered with them in ME2 (?!). I helped them for nothing, stupid Legion should have spared me the work.
It is the silly notion that synthetics can't just be cool robots and AI and whatnot that think and behave in total strange and incompatible ways to us, but they need instead to be more like organics to be real, therefore, the Pinocchio story.
EDI behaves more and more "like a real person" too (real person = human).
All the questioning and wondering "what is life" of ME2 is out the window.

ME has this thing, and a lot of other fiction has it, about humanity and Earth as something awesome, as proof of the miracle of life, as a precious snowflake. The aliens have human personalities and a lot of them are -humanoid-.
I never even liked the Alliance and always sided with the aliens, and I wanted to actually play an alien when I first started playing ME. Why would boring humans I see everyday be more interesting when I could have endless creativity in a sci-fi rpg.
But what should I expect when even in reality everyone thinks of alien life by Earth's standards.

It's the only reason why I think they could have gone with this Pinocchio theme. And cause they had no idea what to do with too little time to finish the game, so just go with cliche plot. And cause they needed to put more reaper things in the world (for some evil reason).

Nothing in the ME3 ever statedthey werenot alive before. Legion looked at it more as an up grade. To be more alive. We organics don't have anything like that to compear it to.

[Suspire]

He says they could be "truly alive", not more alive. I know that going to being truly alive from being not truly alive is an upgrade.

Modifié par Suspire, 09 septembre 2012 - 08:27 .

[Sajuro]

Please pay attention to the game, the geth took the Reaper code after their Geth star was messed up by the Quarians and Legion (how I saw it) chose to use the Reaper code because no matter how much of a special snowflake it might be, he recognized the problem with getting dumber everytime one of your comrades gets killed in a war. The Gerrel is a war monger who wants to destroy the superior geth while they are down.

[Krozuhsky]

Oh, and Legion. Why couldnt he just copy and upload that copy? Why did he have to sacrifice himself?

[RadicalDisconnect]

You're not alone in your belief, OP. I share your view on the geth in ME3 as well, and since I'm lazy, I'll just copy and paste.

I also really didn't like how the geth was handled in this game. AI's in ME3 are a mixed bag. 

TL;DR version: Unlike EDI, whose background is entirely about working alongside humans, Legion and the geth have no reason to try to emulate organics and adopt individuality.

Long version:
There are two prominent instances where artificial intelligence was anthropomorphized in ME3: EDI and the geth. While I feel that EDI's "humanization" was handled well, if a bit awkward at times, I really dislike how the geth went in the same direction.

This has probably been mentioned in many other threads, but I just feel like pointing this out.

Legion's description of racism:
"No two species are identical. All must be judged by their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism."

I personally felt that Legion's description of racism is damn brilliant. There are no other societies that are quite like their hive-mind consensus. This is what made the geth so fascinating in ME2. They were turned from Saren's mooks in ME1 to an interesting and unique society in its own right. I like it when the lore brings about a different, unique society and considers it equally legitimate as human society. Unfortunately, ME3 backtracked this to hell.

Now, anthropomorphism of EDI, i.e. her "humanization," throughout ME2 and ME3 is acceptable. She was created by a human organization and spent her entire existence alongside the almost entirely human crew of the Normandy SR-2. Most of her interactions are with humans, especially Joker and perhaps Shepard. She is a unique personality construct, a fusion of quantum computer and Reaper hardware, and until she met Legion near the end of ME2, she had no interactions with other synthetics. Considering EDI's history, environment, and social interactions, her efforts to be more "human" is frankly almost expected from her.

However, the same cannot be said about the geth. Because of this, I'm particularly miffed by how anthropomorphized the geth, especially Legion, were in ME3. I really didn't like how Legion insisted on transforming geth platforms into individuals, and even lampshading it by using a singular pronoun just before his "sacrifice." ME3 made it seem like individuality is a necessary facet of cultures and societies. It's unfortunate that the game really emphasized the notion that cultures and societies must be humanized in order to be considered legitimate and be taken seriously.

Not to mention that Legion's death scene is full of unexplained problems. So why is direct personality dissemination required for copying code? Oh, and about those Reaper upgrades. It baffles me that Tali described the Reaper-controlled geth as networked AI's, but when Legion chose to incorporate those Reaper upgrades to the geth after that destroyer was terminated, they became individuals. Yeah...WTF.

In short, I really didn't like the direction they went with the geth in ME3. We already have an anthropomorphic, human-like AI in the form of EDI since the beginning of ME2, so why must Bioware take the same direction with the geth? Is it really necessary for the writers to view humanizing the geth as the only way to legitimize them as a species?

MegaSovereign wrote...

I understand the Geth needing to use the Reaper code to save themselves BEFORE the events of Priority: Rannoch.

I'm talking about AFTER we take out that Reaper base. Legion clearly doesn't NEED to apply the Reaper code upgrades. He's doing it because he believes it is the way his kind must evolve as a race. This contradicts everything Legion revealed about the Geth in ME2. This is what I have a problem with.

 

I agree.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 09 septembre 2012 - 09:12 .

[SackofCat]

Legion and, by extension, the geth made explicit their stance on the matter of accepting another's technology- they were against it. Whether it was because they wished to evolve naturally or because of the source of the technology or something else those views became an important characterization.

Their reason for abandoning this philosophy should have been tied explicitly to their earlier view. As it is, we must headcanon that their experiences (be it the Quarian attack on their dyspn sphere, fear of further Quarian threat, or having had experienced the upgrades beforehand) since ME2 have changed their perspective.

I think Legion's sacrifice foreshadowed more than Shepard's sacrifice. Legion performed it's own version of jumping in a beam (figuratively speaking) to fundamentally change the minds of a species.

Also, dreman, why do you think the reapers would have more, rather than less or the same amount of, trouble hacking OG Geth than Geth with reaper upgrades?

[Suspire]

And the geth had how many centuries to figure how their intelligence works? Yeah right, not buying that they suddenly "saw the light" and wanted to become individuals.
If Legion survived I'd have wanted to kill him for changing his mind and making me waste my time. Specially as soon as he says they weren't truly alive.
Though synthesis means they still had to become even more alive, lol.

Modifié par Suspire, 09 septembre 2012 - 09:03 .

[RadicalDisconnect]

Suspire wrote...

And the geth had how many centuries to figure how their intelligence works? Yeah right, not buying it.
If Legion survived I'd have wanted to kill him for changing his mind and making me waste my time. Specially as soon as he says they weren't truly alive.
Though synthesis means they still had to become even more alive, lol.

Apparently Bioware forgot that EDI told me she felt alive before Synthesis. But hey, green space magic now makes synthetics fit the biological definition of alive as well right?

[SackofCat]

On the other hand, I can imagine it would be difficult for me to give up an expanded perception of the world and a new realm of independence once I had experienced it...but then again, I am human and have never functioned in the way the Geth have (as far as I know).

[Suspire]

You guys are ninjas and reply faster than I can edit my posts (wanted to add clarity)
But yeah. I didn't even like EDI as "feeling alive" at all, like I said in the last page.
It's so simplistic to think in sci-fi as "our way is the best way", not to mention boring (we even have colors we cannot see, how lame are we)

Modifié par Suspire, 09 septembre 2012 - 09:09 .

[RadicalDisconnect]

Suspire wrote...

You guys are ninjas and reply faster than I can edit my posts (wanted to add clarity)
But yeah. I didn't even like EDI as "feeling alive" at all, like I said in the last page.
It's so simplistic to think in sci-fi as "our way is the best way", not to mention boring (we even have colors we cannot see, how lame are we)

Yeah, EDI's story arc isn't strong on originality, but if you consider her background and environment, she at least has reasons to try to emulate humans.

The geth, on the other hand, have no excuse in my opinion.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 09 septembre 2012 - 09:27 .

[shodiswe]

I am disappoint wrote...

Legion was doing what was best for the individual Geth platform.
It's clear from ME2 - ME3 he understood that Geth were better off not in the one giant platform, perhaps been locked up in the Dreadnought gave him time to think.

Also the destruction of that sphere made it clear to Legion how dangerous it was to put all their eggs in one basket... If anything the Geth Quarian war in ME3 proved to the Geth that their dream of unity made them more vulnerable.

This is probably why they wecomed new technology that would allow them to increase their intelectual capacity in each platform instead of havign to link together to function at an optimal capacity.

Also Legion had found out how to use the reaper inspired tech without falling pray for the "indoctrination" side of the tech that the Reapers had pushed on them.

It was a chance for them to become free and less vulnerable and Legion itself was proof that it worked. The other Geth wanted what Legion had.

[JBPBRC]

Pitznik wrote...

Good post, I agree. But that makes it only easier to me to get rid of the f**cking Geth and their BS. We worship the Reapers! We hate the Reapers! We reject Reaper tech! We join the Reapers! We accept Reaper tech! Seriously, I'm tired of that, go DIAF.

Rannoch vehicle run was nice in showing what exactly gun can do against Destroyer.

Why stop at the Geth? Go all or nothing! Low Destroy EMS!

[SackofCat]

How exactly did Legion avoid the syn-doctrination that befell it's Geth brethren?

[nategator]

By having the Reaper Code be the only option toward resolving the Geth issue peacefully, Bioware was foreshadowing synthesis/control as defendable choices. It was executed a little clumsily but, aside from EDI (partly Reapre tech as well) this was the big signposts telling the player that peace with the Reapers could be OK.

[Kataphrut94]

SackofCat wrote...

How exactly did Legion avoid the syn-doctrination that befell it's Geth brethren?

Something about "his architecture being too complex". Hive mind entities seem to be immune, or at least resistant to indoctrination - the thorian-afflicted colonists and the rachni queen have this effect as well.

As for the original topic, it's mentioned many times by Legion that he is ashamed of what the geth had become after the quarian attack and admitted it was a result of the Dyson sphere being destroyed - they lost intelligence, became confused and self-preservation took precedence.

I don't consider the decision to upload the code at the end to be out of character for the geth. For one, the alternative was extinction and that kind of overrules any principles you might have about this sort of thing, but there's also the fact that the Reaper was dead and wouldn't have control over the geth. It was their code, but the geth's decision to use said code to improve themselves is entirely on them.

[Reorte]

Not read the whole thread so I'm probably covering things already covered but I mostly agree with the OP (although I still enjoyed the mission).

Accepting Reaper help at first made sense because it was a take it or die situation for the geth. After that it made them far less interesting (the collective conciousness concept was much more interesting to think about) and pushes the rather obscene message that someone in BW clearly loves that everything has to be changed to be more like us for us to all get along.

[Crazydave Wong]

Yeah this thread makes major sense. I agree with you that It should have been abble to persuade both the Quarians and Legion to stand down. Besides, if the geth are weak without the assistance from the reapers, then why the geth were able to drive the Quarians from Rannoch in the first place??? I'm confused......
And........Aww damn I start to hate the plot of ME3 now.

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

Legion should have been a squadmember.

Or at least his mental state gets backed up on the Geth Servers, so he still is alive.

Geth Prime would seal the deal. As long as he turns into a truck and is red and blue.

[Constant Motion]

MegaSovereign wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Don't use "fail" as a noun in your arguments. You're better than that.

I can't really articulate my feelings toward it any better.

Well, maybe you don't know as much about writing as you thought you did, then.

Characters aren't bricks, or rules, or facts. They aren't big, static pillars of "must." Settings are pillars, laws of the universe are facts, but the entire point of a character is that it moves. That's what story is. If the characters don't change they're just react-o-bots. Plot devices. A thing happens, a person defeats it in their signature way, and the thing stops happening. That's not story.

In a story, characters learn, they move, they grow. Sometimes they contradict themselves, whether because they're exposing their own hypocrisy or because they've learnt the error of their ways. More likely just because that's what people do.

Legion cites the Mass Relays as an example of the Reapers shaping evolution along their own lines - but you meet him in the Hawking nebula! Nowhere near Rannoch. He recognises the cultural danger, and yet he depends on them just like anyone else. If it's ever been a core tenet of his character, it's also been one that he doesn't adhere to very well.

Modifié par Constant Motion, 09 septembre 2012 - 01:12 .

[Subject M]

The Geth accepting the Reaper code was an unfortunate choice in the storytelling process.
Understandable, but unfortunate. The same goes for synthetics in general wanting to be more "human". I am all fore them wanting to understand organics better, but it could have been done in a better way.

[jedidotflow]

[Deleted post]

Modifié par jedi.flow, 09 septembre 2012 - 02:17 .

[Yakko77]

I guess in the Geth's defense one could argue that Admiral Xen's "new toys" pushed them into a corner but still, given the events of Legion's loyalty mission in ME2, it seemed quite the betrayal of character IMO as well for the Geth to so willingly apply Reaper code to "evolve".

[Applepie_Svk]

Yakko77 wrote...

I guess in the Geth's defense one could argue that Admiral Xen's "new toys" pushed them into a corner but still, given the events of Legion's loyalty mission in ME2, it seemed quite the betrayal of character IMO as well for the Geth to so willingly apply Reaper code to "evolve".

It reminds me the Saren, TIM and Keson talking about inevitable future...

[Dean_the_Young]

I'll also throw in that there are a couple other issues that can be found with the writing.

1) The Geth are never called out for enforcing hundreds of years of militant isolationism, never broadcasting their willingness to peace to anyone before or after their time with Shepard and never attempting any sort of communication with other species.

2) The Geth sided with the Reapers rather than make any known attempt to seek help from anyone else who might help them in exchange for help.

3) The Geth were never brought to account for the Quarian genocide during the morning war, even though casualty results of a interstellar civilization being reduced to a few minimum far surpass 'self-defense'.

4) The Quarians are depicted as the solely responsible problem for all the problems, and disasters, in the conflict. The entire centuries-long conflict is turned into the Quarians repeatedly running head-first into an innocent wall.

5 ) The ability to dispute whether the Geth are even 'alive' is removed from discussion. Instead their equivalence with organic life rather than as rouge tools is treated as an accepted consensus, rather than a point of dispute.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 09 septembre 2012 - 02:21 .