164 réponses à ce sujet

[Baa Baa]

I loved the Rannoch story but all this really bothered me. And I wish there was a way of telling Legion, "you can't use to Reaper code, you said you can't go along their technological path!" Or at least say something constructive for stopping him from using the code instead of just sounding like a Renegade douche.

[JesseLee202]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll also throw in that there are a couple other issues that can be found with the writing.

1) The Geth are never called out for enforcing hundreds of years of militant isolationism, never broadcasting their willingness to peace to anyone before or after their time with Shepard and never attempting any sort of communication with other species.

2) The Geth sided with the Reapers rather than make any known attempt to seek help from anyone else who might help them in exchange for help.

3) The Geth were never brought to account for the Quarian genocide during the morning war, even though casualty results of a interstellar civilization being reduced to a few minimum far surpass 'self-defense'.

4) The Quarians are depicted as the solely responsible problem for all the problems, and disasters, in the conflict. The entire centuries-long conflict is turned into the Quarians repeatedly running head-first into an innocent wall.

5 ) The ability to dispute whether the Geth are even 'alive' is removed from discussion. Instead their equivalence with organic life rather than as rouge tools is treated as an accepted consensus, rather than a point of dispute.

BioWare tried too hard to paint the Geth as victims. At least some people can see through it.

"The Geth only acted in self-defense, do we deserve death?" - That line single handedly made me disgusted. What the Geth did may have started as self-defense, but it went above and beyond.

[Aulis Vaara]

Here's another fun one:

There are 1183 programs (Geth!) on the Legion platform. I presume it's the same for other platforms, though maybe not in the same amount. So, making each platform an individual, isn't that mass murder of all the Geth who don't get their own platform?

[Aulis Vaara]

JesseLee202 wrote...

BioWare tried too hard to paint the Geth as victims. At least some people can see through it.

"The Geth only acted in self-defense, do we deserve death?" - That line single handedly made me disgusted. What the Geth did may have started as self-defense, but it went above and beyond.

The Geth have killed a lot of people, let's use that as justification for genocide! Is that really what you're trying to say?

Besides, the Geth killed no more in the war than the Quarians (metaphorically speaking, we don't need to compare numbers, both killed millions or more of the other side. And the Quarians started it all out of fear! The Geth may have blood on their hands, but they ARE victims.

[JesseLee202]

Aulis Vaara wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

BioWare tried too hard to paint the Geth as victims. At least some people can see through it.

"The Geth only acted in self-defense, do we deserve death?" - That line single handedly made me disgusted. What the Geth did may have started as self-defense, but it went above and beyond.

The Geth have killed a lot of people, let's use that as justification for genocide! Is that really what you're trying to say?

Besides, the Geth killed no more in the war than the Quarians (metaphorically speaking, we don't need to compare numbers, both killed millions or more of the other side. And the Quarians started it all out of fear! The Geth may have blood on their hands, but they ARE victims.

You do realize that the Geth in ME3 are the same Geth that killed over 99% of the Quarians? The Geth killed billions, not millions, of Quarians. Then the Geth have the nerve to try and say that it was self-defense. Explain to me how killing over 99% of any population is justifiable as self-defense. Or better yet, how using chemical weapons is self-defense.

EDIT: Source of toxins was from the Morning War. At 1:50 
 

The Quarians did not use them againts a bunch of machines, the Geth used them againts organics.

Modifié par JesseLee202, 09 septembre 2012 - 03:14 .

[MegaSovereign]

dreman9999 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I understand the Geth needing to use the Reaper code to save themselves BEFORE the events of Priority: Rannoch.

I'm talking about AFTER we take out that Reaper base. Legion clearly doesn't NEED to apply the Reaper code upgrades. He's doing it because he believes it is the way his kind must evolve as a race. This contradicts everything Legion revealed about the Geth in ME2. This is what I have a problem with.

He only found the need to do it after. As stated before, what is stopping the reaeprs from hacking the geth when they don't have the reaper code?

The Geth let them "hack them" in the first place.

[Hudathan]

What if after everything that's happened, Legion ended up facing the same dilemma as Shepard did with the Crucible? What if the Reaper code offered the Geth new possibilities they failed to consider in the past?

Similar to Control/Synthesis, uploading the Reaper code and granting the Geth individuality offered Legion a new perspective on the meaning of existence and their role in the universe. Maybe what Legion did foreshadows the type of decision-making that Shepard would be confronted with over the course of such a huge conflict.

[SeptimusMagistos]

One thing that bothers me about this thread and all threads in general: at what point did the geth imply they'd stop their collective consciousness thing?

It seems like a bunch of people assume that they'll stop linking up now that each program is smart enough to be counted as an individual, but they never said they'll stop nor do they have any reason to do so.

[Sajuro]

JesseLee202 wrote...

Aulis Vaara wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...

BioWare tried too hard to paint the Geth as victims. At least some people can see through it.

"The Geth only acted in self-defense, do we deserve death?" - That line single handedly made me disgusted. What the Geth did may have started as self-defense, but it went above and beyond.

The Geth have killed a lot of people, let's use that as justification for genocide! Is that really what you're trying to say?

Besides, the Geth killed no more in the war than the Quarians (metaphorically speaking, we don't need to compare numbers, both killed millions or more of the other side. And the Quarians started it all out of fear! The Geth may have blood on their hands, but they ARE victims.

You do realize that the Geth in ME3 are the same Geth that killed over 99% of the Quarians? The Geth killed billions, not millions, of Quarians. Then the Geth have the nerve to try and say that it was self-defense. Explain to me how killing over 99% of any population is justifiable as self-defense. Or better yet, how using chemical weapons is self-defense.

EDIT: Source of toxins was from the Morning War. At 1:50 
 

The Quarians did not use them againts a bunch of machines, the Geth used them againts organics.

Because the Quarians were led by hundreds of Hans Gerrels  apparently. The morning war started when the Quartians flipped their **** and started trying to shut off the geth, even killing several Quarians who wanted to keep the Geth on so I wouldn't be surprised if they used some chemical weapons against the geth sympathizers.

[JesseLee202]

Sajuro wrote...

Because the Quarians were led by hundreds of Hans Gerrels  apparently. The morning war started when the Quartians flipped their **** and started trying to shut off the geth, even killing several Quarians who wanted to keep the Geth on so I wouldn't be surprised if they used some chemical weapons against the geth sympathizers.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the Geth used chemical weapons on innocent civilians. All we can do is speculate, considering there is only one line of dialogue about toxins.

Still, you didn't answer my original question. How can killing over 99% of a population be considered self-defense? Just because it started as self-defense doesn't mean it ended with it. Billions of casualties requires innocent people to be killed by the Geth in the morning war.

I know the Quarians killed Geth supporters, but trying to say that accounts for millions of deaths is illogical.

[Yakko77]

JesseLee202 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I'll also throw in that there are a couple other issues that can be found with the writing.

1) The Geth are never called out for enforcing hundreds of years of militant isolationism, never broadcasting their willingness to peace to anyone before or after their time with Shepard and never attempting any sort of communication with other species.

2) The Geth sided with the Reapers rather than make any known attempt to seek help from anyone else who might help them in exchange for help.

3) The Geth were never brought to account for the Quarian genocide during the morning war, even though casualty results of a interstellar civilization being reduced to a few minimum far surpass 'self-defense'.

4) The Quarians are depicted as the solely responsible problem for all the problems, and disasters, in the conflict. The entire centuries-long conflict is turned into the Quarians repeatedly running head-first into an innocent wall.

5 ) The ability to dispute whether the Geth are even 'alive' is removed from discussion. Instead their equivalence with organic life rather than as rouge tools is treated as an accepted consensus, rather than a point of dispute.

BioWare tried too hard to paint the Geth as victims. At least some people can see through it.

"The Geth only acted in self-defense, do we deserve death?" - That line single handedly made me disgusted. What the Geth did may have started as self-defense, but it went above and beyond.

Yeah, I tend to think fighting an enemy to the point of extinction and causing a mass exodus and forced exile from ones own homeworld is a few steps beyond "self defense".

[razzy1319]

The in-universe codex and quarian-told history is sketchy on the morning war. This statement is based on the memory fragments shown to you by Legion which are somewhat "confirmed" by Tali.

Given that no amount of discussion could lead to an answer, speculation takes its place.

Matrix like(Second Renaissance) Morning War, where the Quarian's created their own doom? Sure, why not!

Or Asimov/I-Robot AI Assertion that in order to fully serve its core programming of protecting Quarians it has to kill off other Quarians and consider it as collateral damage? Sure!

Quarian's were probably very stubborn. Kept attacking even if billions of them annihilated? Sure, They effing began a war even when they were told not to.

[Aulis Vaara]

JesseLee202 wrote...

And I wouldn't be surprised if the Geth used chemical weapons on innocent civilians. All we can do is speculate, considering there is only one line of dialogue about toxins.

Still, you didn't answer my original question. How can killing over 99% of a population be considered self-defense? Just because it started as self-defense doesn't mean it ended with it. Billions of casualties requires innocent people to be killed by the Geth in the morning war.

I know the Quarians killed Geth supporters, but trying to say that accounts for millions of deaths is illogical.

Two question: How many Geth were killed? And do you even care about that?

And yes, the casualties are indeed billions, and not millions, but they are billions on both sides, not just on one! Not to mention that Quarians actually killed their own to get at the Geth! And yet you'd call THEM victims?

As a human being I find your reasoning highly disturbing...

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

MegaSovereign wrote...

What a lot of people consider to be one of the best parts of ME3 is, IMO, some of the worst failures in storytelling of the game. Yes, it was incredibly, emotionally satisfying on the surface. In fact, I believe that's why so many people completely ignore some of the blatant flaws with its plot. It completely changed the direction of the Geth and introduced false dilemmas where they need not to be. Most of my analysis will actually be about the implications of the climax of the Rannoch arc.

Character inconsistency: Legion accepting Reaper Code upgrades as the path to achieve the Geth's future.



Legion's views of the Reaper Code in ME3 completely contradicts what we learned about him and the non-heretic Geth in ME2. Here are the direct quotes:

Legion: The Old Machines offered to give us our future. The geth will achieve their own future.

Shepard: What difference does it make how you acquire a certain technology?

Legion: Technology is not a straight line. There are many paths to the same end. Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives. Nazara -- Sovereign -- said this itself. "Your civilizations is based upon the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."

Their goal was to build a sphere that they can upload all their memories into so that way all Geth would no longer be alone. That's their future, or what it was originally. It was never about making each Geth unit become an individual life form. The ME2 Legion would never, ever accept "gifts" from the Reapers to advance the Geth race.

The counter argument here is that the Geth HAD to accept the Reaper code upgrades since the Quarians were on the verge of destroying them. This is true until the end of the Priority: Rannoch. Which brings me tooo:

The false dilemma





After destroying the Reaper signal, the Geth shut off. Now, Admiral Gerrel saw this as an opportunity to take out the Geth while they're down.

This entire scene is nonsensical. The player is expected to trust Legion to upload the Reaper Code (without it backfiring and giving the Geth to the Reapers...again) while they trying to persuade the Quarian fleet to stand down.

It's just so freaking stupid. Honestly I can't even articulate how stupid this scene is. It's such an obviously forced false dilemma. Why do I have to let Legion upload the Reaper code to get the optimal "peace" ending? He's a freaking machine, it'd be easier to persuade him using logic. "Hey uh Legion, remember what you said about accepting the Reapers' gifts? How the Reapers would be giving you your future and how you didn't want that?"

Don't even get me started on Legion's sacrifice. "I'm sorry Shepard, I mustgo to them." Come on, there is no reason why Legion would need to die in order to upload the code. It doesn't even make sense.


In conclusion, I feel like we should have been able to get both Gerrel and Legion to stand down. Instead we are forced to accept the "new" direction Bioware took with the Geth. Apparently the future of the Geth is to become humanoid. And I wholeheartedly disagree. The Geth were so interesting in ME2 because they truly did feel "alien."

Anyone else agree? 

I felt the situation was so freaking stupid. It was a forced dilemma when there really wasn't any dilemma at all. The reaper signal shut down. The machines shut off. The Quarians decided they wanted to destroy the machines while they were shut off. Legion decided to use the code of the "old machines" going against everything he said about the Geth in ME2 about them making their own future their own way. So he wants to use the reaper code. Yeah, that code. The code that was in the signal that was controlling them. What could possibly go wrong?

Listen to yourself Legion! You're indoctrinated! Tali?

Good thing I destroyed the Heretics so that the Quarians were larger, isn't it? And yes I used the three renegade interrupts.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 09 septembre 2012 - 08:49 .

[razzy1319]

^ Wasnt Legion's dilemma the extinction of his race? How can that be false?

The Quarian's attacked, Geth lost some people, they become desperate and accept Reaper Help.

Legion disables the Reaper signal, Geth lose more people because of Gerrel.

Now the Quarian's are bearing down the full might of their fleet on the remaining Geth who are pretty much more useless now because there are less of them and they dont have the reaper upgrades.

On top of all that those Quarians in the fleet, arent thinking of reconcilliation, their only goal is genocide.

THE EXTINCTION of the Geth.

The Geth had a gun to their heads, and out of desperation(which they have been known to do) would not do anything about it?

[m2iCodeJockey]

MegaSovereign wrote...

What a lot of people consider to be one of the best parts of ME3 is, IMO, some of the worst failures in storytelling of the game. Yes, it was incredibly, emotionally satisfying on the surface. In fact, I believe that's why so many people completely ignore some of the blatant flaws with its plot. It completely changed the direction of the Geth and introduced false dilemmas where they need not to be. Most of my analysis will actually be about the implications of the climax of the Rannoch arc.

Character inconsistency: Legion accepting Reaper Code upgrades as the path to achieve the Geth's future.



Legion's views of the Reaper Code in ME3 completely contradicts what we learned about him and the non-heretic Geth in ME2. Here are the direct quotes:

Legion: The Old Machines offered to give us our future. The geth will achieve their own future.

Shepard: What difference does it make how you acquire a certain technology?

Legion: Technology is not a straight line. There are many paths to the same end. Accepting another's path blinds you to alternatives. Nazara -- Sovereign -- said this itself. "Your civilizations is based upon the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths we desire."

Their goal was to build a sphere that they can upload all their memories into so that way all Geth would no longer be alone. That's their future, or what it was originally. It was never about making each Geth unit become an individual life form. The ME2 Legion would never, ever accept "gifts" from the Reapers to advance the Geth race.

The counter argument here is that the Geth HAD to accept the Reaper code upgrades since the Quarians were on the verge of destroying them. This is true until the end of the Priority: Rannoch. Which brings me tooo:

The false dilemma





After destroying the Reaper signal, the Geth shut off. Now, Admiral Gerrel saw this as an opportunity to take out the Geth while they're down.

This entire scene is nonsensical. The player is expected to trust Legion to upload the Reaper Code (without it backfiring and giving the Geth to the Reapers...again) while they trying to persuade the Quarian fleet to stand down.

It's just so freaking stupid. Honestly I can't even articulate how stupid this scene is. It's such an obviously forced false dilemma. Why do I have to let Legion upload the Reaper code to get the optimal "peace" ending? He's a freaking machine, it'd be easier to persuade him using logic. "Hey uh Legion, remember what you said about accepting the Reapers' gifts? How the Reapers would be giving you your future and how you didn't want that?"

Don't even get me started on Legion's sacrifice. "I'm sorry Shepard, I mustgo to them." Come on, there is no reason why Legion would need to die in order to upload the code. It doesn't even make sense.


In conclusion, I feel like we should have been able to get both Gerrel and Legion to stand down. Instead we are forced to accept the "new" direction Bioware took with the Geth. Apparently the future of the Geth is to become humanoid. And I wholeheartedly disagree. The Geth were so interesting in ME2 because they truly did feel "alien."

Anyone else agree?

Mega, if you were going to complain about that, there's something you missed:
-Why did 580 million Quarians with special environmental needs attack 9 billion+ Geth capable of 100% militarization?
-Why did Raan side with Gerrel and Xen?
There was no immediate need to attack Rannoch. No one would have died in two days if they'd chosen to look for a new planet.
These are not good military leaders.

-Transversely, why are the Geth holding on to Rannoch, anyway?
It was already established that the Geth could be fine with Haestrom.
There was no need for the Geth to hold Rannoch in the long term.

[MegaSovereign]

Mega, if you were going to complain about that, there's something you missed:
-Why did 580 million Quarians with special environmental needs attack 9 billion+ Geth capable of 100% militarization?
-Why did Raan side with Gerrel and Xen?
There was no immediate need to attack Rannoch. No one would have died in two days if they'd chosen to look for a new planet.
These are not good military leaders.

-Transversely, why are the Geth holding on to Rannoch, anyway?
It was already established that the Geth could be fine with Haestrom.
There was no need for the Geth to hold Rannoch in the long term.

Those were plot conveniences that I've come to accept. However, the deliberate butchering of the development of the Geth is not acceptable.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 09 septembre 2012 - 09:45 .

[Icinix]

Don't look too deep at anything in ME3.

The closer you look, the more frayed and loose ends you notice.

It also exists in a bubble - devoid of contact with the prior two games.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

razzy1319 wrote...

^ Wasnt Legion's dilemma the extinction of his race? How can that be false?

The Quarian's attacked, Geth lost some people, they become desperate and accept Reaper Help.

Legion disables the Reaper signal, Geth lose more people because of Gerrel.

Now the Quarian's are bearing down the full might of their fleet on the remaining Geth who are pretty much more useless now because there are less of them and they dont have the reaper upgrades.

On top of all that those Quarians in the fleet, arent thinking of reconcilliation, their only goal is genocide.

THE EXTINCTION of the Geth.

The Geth had a gun to their heads, and out of desperation(which they have been known to do) would not do anything about it?

If you think about it the Geth almost drove the Quarians to extinction. I think we had this discussion once. What if we were creating networked intelligence here on earth and we ended up with enough of them where some started asking those types of questions? Would enough people want to deactivate their units to reduce the number down to where they wouldn't have the numbers to have that degree of intelligence? Would we have the right to do that? If there were no laws on the books saying that there we could not deactivate our units would we have the right to deactivate our units?

See, this is where the Quarians were at the time of the Morning War. Legally is was alright for them to deactivate their units. Some people were advocates of robot rights (much like our animal rights activists except probably more of them) and treated their robots more like pets and refused when a recall of the units was issued, and due to the nature of the situation, and the emotion involved it escalated into a full scale war. The robots fought back because the numbers were larger than originally thought. No emotion from them. Only cold logic. Genocide was the result.

Yet we are led to feel that the Geth were merciful when they let I don't know how many Quarians escape Rannoch, but they did so because they didn't know how to pursue. Hence the Migrant Fleet. The story is tragic.

And now the Quarians want to settle back on their own world again, and at least set foot on it and see the sky and breathe the air before they're wiped out by the reapers. Go for it, Tali.

So back to the Geth. Good riddance. They were hacked not once, but twice by the reapers and both times voluntarily. All the geth have done since the first one I ever met except for Legion was try to kill Shepard and her squad. I could not choose the Geth over Tali and her people. Besides, the Quarians had the larger fleet (I destroyed the Heretics).

Their extinction? They're semi-intelligent equipment. They can be rebuilt. There's a factory that builds geth mobile platforms right next to where you were standing. I doubt they'll be rebuilt any time soon.

The situation was so contrived though. And as to having a gun to their heads, considering they'd done nothing to endear themselves to any race in the galaxy since their policy was to shoot first and ask questions later, I can see where asking any organic race for assistance would be a problem. Which leaves only ... dun dun dun... the reapers. and ... dun dun dun ... fulfills Starboy's  prophesy of "the created will always rebel against their creators." And reinforcing this was the entire purpose of the mission.

[razzy1319]

We arent TOLD of any efforts by the Geth to endear themselves to galaxy is probably a problematic writing item that should be on the OPs list.

But we are told that the Galaxy has the same amount of effort to endear themselves with the Geth. Nil There is a ban on their KIND.

Would the whole war been over the moment it started if the Quarians just agreed that yes this is life we dont yet understand and yes it demands us to be more understanding? Hell yeh! Would the Quarians ever do this? No. They were stubborn and ignorant to the last man even to their extinction.

Most humans are semi-intelligent equipment. There's a cloning facility on Sur'Kesh we could just make more of them. I doubt they'll be rebuilt soon seeing as there's nothing special about them too squishy.

I could make that statement reflect the historical parallel they meant to evoke but I don't want this thread to be locked.

[CronoDragoon]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Vigilant111 wrote...

The way I see it is that the upgrade makes them more alive if they are not already so... this somehow convinces the Quarians that the Geth is actually a people rather than just machines...

You have to change a race of people in order for conflict not to exist? 

So what you're saying is...The Reapers are right?

It's saying progression and change can be a good thing. The ME writers clearly believed individualism is better than hive-mind.

[oldag07]

Survival tends to trump most "morals". (Refuse endersB) ) .

The Geth needed to the code to survive both times.  The first time was to fend off the Quarian attack.  The second, Legion uploaded the code because the Quarians attempted to destroy them a second time.

[CronoDragoon]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I understand the Geth needing to use the Reaper code to save themselves BEFORE the events of Priority: Rannoch.

I'm talking about AFTER we take out that Reaper base. Legion clearly doesn't NEED to apply the Reaper code upgrades. He's doing it because he believes it is the way his kind must evolve as a race. This contradicts everything Legion revealed about the Geth in ME2. This is what I have a problem with.

It contradicts, in some ways, what Legion believed about his race in ME2, but he's clearly changed by the end of Rannoch. He now believes the hive-mind is no longer an acceptable path for his race. You can disagree with that point if you feel differently, but it's not a stupid evolution.

[oldag07]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Legion clearly doesn't NEED to apply the Reaper code upgrades.

Wrong.  From what I remember, the Quarians had some sort of trick that would "blind the Geth".  That is why the Geth got help from the Reapers in the first place.  When the reapers were destroyed, the Geth reverted back into the defenseless state that they were before the Geth upgrades.  Legion had to upload the code so they could have a defense against the Quarian trick.