164 réponses à ce sujet

[thehomeworld]

The Rannoch chapter has so many things BW missed, wanted to forget, ignored, or dropped not just in the chapter but in the related area of Tali x Mshep their relationship is also woven into this conflict too. They got tied in the moment shep confirmed he loved Tali for the simple reasons Quarians are born for the fleet to serve it, protect it, and to live in it him being her LI effects their politics just as the geth do it all comes back to the fleet.

For me the Rannoch chapter was a point to finally peer into the workings of the Quarian society politically, socially,economically, militarily. Not just hear stories, or be drug into the middle of a trial but we were literally forming this societies future in this mission more so then Tuchanka.

This society was closed off to all people they would consider outsiders they did let a human in once and it cost them a ship and many lives they closed themselves off to everyone unless they needed something they couldn't make like haul repairs. Shep ties into this if he's an LI for Tali because he's challenging this insular mindset. If there was no war I'm sure the Admirals would be up in arms they again are being asked to let other species into their society this could've been some real conflict for the couple socially not only causing chaos withing the Quarian community but also the galaxy as we know the galaxy also hats Quarians and their galaxy hero is dating a space gypsy. This would've been a great way to help with social tensions between the Quaraians and the galaxy and get them some respect if played right.

We know the Quarians have a loyalty policy all Quarians must be loyal to the fleet a good mission would've been the admirals trying to abuse shep's Spector status to their fleets advantage and make it a test put forth a dilemma that jives with the status will shep do it? Won't he? And did they even expect him to do it? This would be a test would he really go far for the fleet or would he fallow the spector loyalty to the council can he justify why this was better? If he can make the case the board will see this decision as wiser then the outcome they wanted. Politically this gets them registered with the galaxy as a species they can trust or not depending on what shep does. You would effect how they'll deal in the future of the galaxy after the war. The good would be the races accept them again and they get to do honest dealings if not they must deal with the likes of the Batarians or other races delving more into a criminal haven.

These moments would also strengthen or divide Tali and Shep relationship wise these two are the most unique, complex, and conflict center characters in the whole series they already start with a basic problem they can't eat the same foods and one of them is always going to be suit bound her off Rannoch him on Rannoch especially outside of the dessert zone.

We also mix in the war they're going to war to get their homeworld back he's lost his BW gave us no back and fourth sharing and receiving of comfort, worry, and joy like we got with fshep x garrus. This was another great area to strengthen two characters and BW dropped it majorly.

Geth x Shep

There was no conflict here on shep's part really irked me to no end he's been hacked, almost murdered by rouge AI and he's ok with linking up to the geth world? Makes no sense to me he may trust Legion but he can't trust the unknown thousand geth on that server not to hack him or other wise trap him mentally in there. There should've been shep at least being able in the wheel to have back and fourth conversations on him not wanting to do this, trying to find another solution, and trying to get reassurance he isn't going to be hacked while inside the thing. After all Legions a good hacker but he can't defend against a large scale hack attempt.

The Rannoch chapter should've been longer then what it was to accomplish all it was suppose to do this wasn't a chapter the should've rushed and rushed they did. I was upset by all the things they didn't do, rushed, ignored, or tried to pretended never happened and should've factored into this chapter. They did Tuchanka very well I had high hopes for this chapter and I shouldn't had.

As far as the dilemma for OP I agree this didn't make sense Legion says we don't want whatever the reapers are pedaling and then he takes it anyway. It would've been great to try the logical argument you presented the geth didn't need to be individuals in order to leave the galaxy and run from the reapers while they go rebuild their sphere in the center of the galaxy or something. I think this dilemma came about so BW could later reinforce what star child said about the machines would gain awareness and then turn on their creators and then destroy them...which is funny because thats exactly what the reapers did to their creators and then they theories they should save everyone else form this fate by destroying them....

[RadicalDisconnect]

SackofCat wrote...

How exactly did Legion avoid the syn-doctrination that befell it's Geth brethren?

I think he said something along the lines of its architecture being too complex to control. That's something that kinda irked me. A Reaper can't take over a single geth platform even though it had complete control of the geth consensus?

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 10 septembre 2012 - 02:59 .

[Ryzaki]

Quarians lost their victim card when they decided to attack the geth in ME3 to me. Thus I side with the Geth, pick destroy and Rannoch becomes a new human colony.

Morons all around.

...I wonder if it's those Reaper upgrades that result in the Geth dying in destroy.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 septembre 2012 - 03:06 .

[JesseLee202]

Aulis Vaara wrote...

Two question: How many Geth were killed?

Actually, not that many... 

"However, since geth do not "die" in any traditional sense (upon the destruction of a geth platform, its programs are simply transmitted to the nearest available platform) and so have no real losses to mourn from the Morning War, Legion posits that they instead clean and maintain the quarian worlds out of respect for their quarian creators who died in the conflict and in preparation for the eventuality of their return."

And do you even care about that?

Why should I care for programs moving to another platform?

And yes, the casualties are indeed billions, and not millions, but they are billions on both sides, not just on one!

Wrong, see quote.

Not to mention that Quarians actually killed their own to get at the Geth! And yet you'd call THEM victims?

As I said, I know what they did and I don't agree with killing innocence.

And I never said the Quarians are the victims. They paid for their mistakes. The Geth pay for theirs over Rannoch in my canon playthrough.

As a human being I find your reasoning highly disturbing...

Considering I just destroyed your argument, I find your lack of debating skills to be highly disturbing. Oh and my source is http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth under "Culture", and in the in-game codex, and from Legion himself.

Maybe you should considering reading it sometime.

Oh yeah, you still never answered my question. How can killing over 99% of a population be considered self-defense? 

[razzy1319]

JesseLee202 wrote...
Oh yeah, you still never answered my question. How can killing over 99% of a population be considered self-defense? 

Quarians stubbornly attacking until 99% of their population was extinguished?

Pretty evident in the game they are that stupid. No regard for civilians and all(liveships), attacking when they are on the brink. attacking with no allies. etc.. Wouldnt be surprised if it was the Quarians' fault they lost Rannoch, probably nuked themselves and thier world which probably why the Geth were "cleaning" it up for them.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

^^^ you are making assumptions again. Why do you side with the machines? You seem so adamant about siding with the machines. The geth are not innocent here. No one is innocent in that war. Yet the geth kept fighting until they were to either exterminate the Quarians, but some managed to escape. The Quarians may have used WMDs; the Geth used WMDs. Later when the Geth were pursuing their own future in the Dyson sphere and they did not need Rannoch anymore, they cleaned it so the Quarians could return. The cities and infrastructure were still intact -- this indicates it was chemical weapons not nukes. Chemical weapons would have little effect on the Geth, but much effect on the Quarians which also indicates it was probably the Geth using them since the Geth can survive in toxic environments. I just shot holes in your argument.

No one is innocent in a war. It takes two to fight. And this one almost resulted in the extinction of the Quarians 300 years earlier.

[Dean_the_Young]

razzy1319 wrote...

JesseLee202 wrote...
Oh yeah, you still never answered my question. How can killing over 99% of a population be considered self-defense? 

Quarians stubbornly attacking until 99% of their population was extinguished?

99% of a population isn't capable of attacking. 99% of a population isn't even able to be cognant that there's a conflict going on at all.

[Ryzaki]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

^^^ you are making assumptions again. Why do you side with the machines? You seem so adamant about siding with the machines. The geth are not innocent here. No one is innocent in that war. Yet the geth kept fighting until they were to either exterminate the Quarians, but some managed to escape. The Quarians may have used WMDs; the Geth used WMDs. Later when the Geth were pursuing their own future in the Dyson sphere and they did not need Rannoch anymore, they cleaned it so the Quarians could return. The cities and infrastructure were still intact -- this indicates it was chemical weapons not nukes. Chemical weapons would have little effect on the Geth, but much effect on the Quarians which also indicates it was probably the Geth using them since the Geth can survive in toxic environments. I just shot holes in your argument.

No one is innocent in a war. It takes two to fight. And this one almost resulted in the extinction of the Quarians 300 years earlier.

and resulted in their extintion in my game when they decided to start it up...yet again.

So yeah...not feeling that much guilt. The geth went overboard but they at least STOPPED. The Quarians didn't stop until in my game it killed them.

[Seboist]

Ryzaki wrote...

Quarians lost their victim card when they decided to attack the geth in ME3 to me. Thus I side with the Geth, pick destroy and Rannoch becomes a new human colony.

Wiping out two Xeno species for humanity's benefit? Good woman!

I personally would have preferred to gain control of the Geth and use them to wipe out the Quarians.

[N7Gold]

D24O wrote...

Yeah, Legion going all crazy over the Reaper code was not a good thing IMO. And you have to either tell him what he's doing is good, or tell him the geth are just mindless robots. I wish there was a way to proceed with the Geth as they were in 2. They didn't need to be changed IMO.

To be honest, this is a similar concept with the genophage cure in ME2 in Mordin's mission. The methods to make the cure were ruthless and unethical, but rejecting the cure if you want to cure the genophage in ME3 is somewhat of a bad idea. Same thing goes for the Reaper codes.

[Discouraged_one]

I am in 100% agreement. I think stylistically, this part of the game was very slick. However, the plot holes you mention are totally unacceptable. It makes me wonder, did the writers even check with what they had created in previous games.

[Ryzaki]

Seboist wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Quarians lost their victim card when they decided to attack the geth in ME3 to me. Thus I side with the Geth, pick destroy and Rannoch becomes a new human colony.

Wiping out two Xeno species for humanity's benefit? Good woman!

I personally would have preferred to gain control of the Geth and use them to wipe out the Quarians.

The Geth sadly wasn't intentionally. Alas BW had the plot demands so Shep decided he might as well use that to his benefit.

LOL that's...cruely hilarious. Get them to finish what they started eh? 

[razzy1319]

 @sH0tgUn jUliA

If you can make assumptions, why am I not allowed to?

I'm assuming the Quarians are stubborn and ignorant because that's how they are characterized in the conflict.

  - They created a SLAVE RACE and failed to properly respond to its growth of intelligence and sentience. (Stupid)

  - They refused to not only be responsible for their creation, enacting a Genocide but also REFUSED their own people's REASONS as to why they should be responsible, to the point of killing their own people (which is probably why there is a 99% percent causality rate on their side). (Stupid and Stubborn)

  - After hundreds of years of sitting in space, Did no one really think of just talking with the Geth, Admitting that they might have been wrong, and formally declaring that "yes, you MIGHT be smarter than us" or atleast "of an equivalent intellect and standing"? Oh yeh right they killed that part of their population( Stubborn and Stupid)

  -  And after all that, YOU, yourself as Commander Shepard, tell the Quarians that there is no point in the conflict other than stubborness and pride. What do these Quarians do in reply? They go off to finish commiting genocide again! (Stubborn)

You're assuming Rannoch was Chem-Bombed and the cities were clean. Amirite? Because once the Primes lend their assistance they say the word REBUILD. What and why the hell would you rebuild if all the infrastructure was there ready to be lived in and used? They even mention Quick-Fab Housing units as a temporary residence.

Again, I don't want to go into the nitty-gritty real world "parralel" of the conflict. I'm sure you know of this well enough. 

@Dean_the_Young

99% percent of the population doesnt need to be attacking for them to face extinction. We live in a world well below the technology level of the Quarians and where a percentage much less than 1 can pretty much start and end a conflict with a 99 percent casualty rate even 100.

From what we see in games, Quarians have little to no qualms about killing their own civilians(Liveships, Armed Civilian Fleet, Early Geth Sympathizers). Morally and ethically from there, a lot could be done to basically grow that casualty rate.

[Seboist]

Ryzaki wrote...

LOL that's...cruely hilarious. Get them to finish what they started eh? 

Sure.

It's tied to an idea I had of the Quarians and Cerberus having an uneasy alliance against the Geth by combining Overlord/Sold Legion with Rael Zorah's work and pro-Cerberus Shepard at the end turning against them.

Too bad we got retconned Cerberus superpower and uber-linearity instead.

[JesseLee202]

razzy1319 wrote...

 @sH0tgUn jUliA

If you can make assumptions, why am I not allowed to?

sH0tgUn jUlia was showing you that assumptions can work both ways.

I'm assuming the Quarians are stubborn and ignorant because that's how they are characterized in the conflict.

From your point of view. 

They created a SLAVE RACE and failed to properly respond to its growth of intelligence and sentience. (Stupid)

No. I guess we should start having anti-computer slavery strikes across the country! (Stupid)

And no, the Geth were not a slave race.  

"The quarians kept their programming as limited as that of any VI, nothing close to an AI, remaining mindful of the Citadel Council's laws against artificial intelligence."

They refused to not only be responsible for their creation, enacting a Genocide but also REFUSED their own people's REASONS as to why they should be responsible, to the point of killing their own people (which is probably why there is a 99% percent causality rate on their side). (Stupid and Stubborn)

LETS GO BACK TO MATH class SHALL WE. The Quarian population before the morning war was in the billions. After the morning war they had around 17 million.

Are you seriously trying to argue that the Quarians killed millions upon millions of Geth supporters? There was a large group of Geth supporters, but no where near the amount to account for the 99% however.

 "...the opposition became an outnumbered minority unable to prevent the outbreak of all-out war."

Let me ask you, what does minority mean? Do you know what outnumbered means? Or are you really that thick? The Geth killed the majority of Quarians, stop trying to deny it. (Stubborn and Stupid)

After hundreds of years of sitting in space, Did no one really think of just talking with the Geth, Admitting that they might have been wrong, and formally declaring that "yes, you MIGHT be smarter than us" or atleast "of an equivalent intellect and standing"? Oh yeh right they killed that part of their population( Stubborn and Stupid)

After hundreds of years sitting in space, did any of the Geth really think about reaching out, or leave Rannoch considering the Geth don't even live there, and formally declaring that the they were wrong for killing billions of Quarians, because killing over 99% of a population is not self-defense? (Stubborn and Stupid)

 

And after all that, YOU, yourself as Commander Shepard, tell the Quarians that there is no point in the conflict other than stubborness and pride. What do these Quarians do in reply? They go off to finish commiting genocide again! (Stubborn)

No, maybe your shep said that, but mine didn't. 

Genocide of toasters is not wrong.

You're assuming Rannoch was Chem-Bombed and the cities were clean. Amirite? Because once the Primes lend their assistance they say the word REBUILD. What and why the hell would you rebuild if all the infrastructure was there ready to be lived in and used? They even mention Quick-Fab Housing units as a temporary residence.

There were both destroyed cities and toxins left from the war. All we can do is speculate.

From what we see in games, Quarians have little to no qualms about killing their own civilians(Liveships, Armed Civilian Fleet, Early Geth Sympathizers). Morally and ethically from there, a lot could be done to basically grow that casualty rate.

From what we see in-game, the Geth have no qualms about killing anyone. Period. That can easily account for billions of casualties.

Heretics: "Hay, lets go worship those Reapers that think killing everyone and everything is a good idea!"

"True" Geth: "No man, were all good, but you go ahead anyway! We won't try and stop you. "

My source is from the codex, and in-game conversations.

Modifié par JesseLee202, 10 septembre 2012 - 06:11 .

[razzy1319]

Most of your counter-arguments are fair. The lack of information and abundance of assumptions we make can make this debate go on forever.

However, I am more interested in what you would consider sentience. What would it take to make you say "Yes, this platform/construct/equipment of biological/mechanical/electrical material is sentient and deserves a bit more attention/understanding"?

[JesseLee202]

razzy1319 wrote...

Most of your counter-arguments are fair. The lack of information and abundance of assumptions we make can make this debate go on forever.

I agree, that is why I prefer to not get involved.

However, I am more interested in what you would consider sentience.

I believe this, "Synthetics emulate life, but they aren't trully alive.".

Synthetics have no emotion. Legion states this in ME2. What good are memories or people we care about if we feel nothing for them? 

What would it take to make you say "Yes, this platform/construct/equipment of biological/mechanical/electrical material is sentient and deserves a bit more attention/understanding"?

See above. Just because I don't think it's alive, doesn't mean I can't give it attention.

Would you say a plant is alive/sentient? I don't, but I still care for them.

[Ryzaki]

Seboist wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOL that's...cruely hilarious. Get them to finish what they started eh? 

Sure.

It's tied to an idea I had of the Quarians and Cerberus having an uneasy alliance against the Geth by combining Overlord/Sold Legion with Rael Zorah's work and pro-Cerberus Shepard at the end turning against them.

Too bad we got retconned Cerberus superpower and uber-linearity instead.

Don't forget alliance fanboism. I could've dealt with Cerberus superpower (even if completely WTF inducing) and uber-linearity (I love JE and that game is VERY Linear. But very good) but why oh why did I have to be an alliance fanboy? 

[razzy1319]

@JesseLee02

Emotions? That's it?

Geth do have emotions. They might not understand what it is and thus can't say they have it.

Geth admire Quarians just enough to protect those that understood them during the Morning War and illogically rebuild/clean a world they don't even use.

Legion somewhat admires Shepard, enough to wear his N7 patch.

Legion felt unsure of the decision on the Heretic space station and left it to Shepard to decide.

Geth feared for their survival and in desperation sided with the Reapers.

[Dean_the_Young]

razzy1319 wrote...

@Dean_the_Young

99% percent of the population doesnt need to be attacking for them to face extinction. We live in a world well below the technology level of the Quarians and where a percentage much less than 1 can pretty much start and end a conflict with a 99 percent casualty rate even 100.

Er, no. Not really, and particularly when one faction practices 'self-defense'. Levels of destruction half that high only come as a result of deliberate intent.

From what we see in games, Quarians have little to no qualms about killing their own civilians(Liveships, Armed Civilian Fleet, Early Geth Sympathizers). Morally and ethically from there, a lot could be done to basically grow that casualty rate.

Which still wouldn't change that there wouldn't be a 99% casualty rate unless the Geth took a distinctly offensive approach.The Quarians stop being a meaningful threat well before they reach a 99% casualty rate.


And unless you really intend to argue that the retreating Quarians successfully massacred their own people rather than leave them to live under Geth occupation, the greatest indicator of a Quarian indicator is the fact that there are no Quarians alive on Rannoch or anywhere else in Geth space today. The only Quarians left alive are the descendents of those who successfully escaped the Geth: all others who failed for lack of want or ability are dead, and gave no descendents.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 septembre 2012 - 09:58 .

[JesseLee202]

razzy1319 wrote...

@JesseLee02

Emotions? That's it?

Geth do have emotions. They might not understand what it is and thus can't say they have it.

No, you are wrong again.  http://www.youtube.c...g2ZgY9tQ#t=0m26 They don't.

Geth admire Quarians just enough to protect those that understood them during the Morning War and illogically rebuild/clean a world they don't even use.

No, you are wrong again. The Geth maintain Rannoch because it is one of the only things they know how to do. They are being responsible for all the death they caused.

Legion somewhat admires Shepard, enough to wear his N7 patch.

It was a field repair, not emotionally driven.

Legion felt unsure of the decision on the Heretic space station and left it to Shepard to decide.

Do you know the definition of emotion? Or what unsure means? This point you made has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Geth feared for their survival and in desperation sided with the Reapers.

No, you are wrong again. Legion says so.  http://www.youtube.c...8pUuC4nw#t=9m15

Trying to survive =/= feeling emotion


EDIT: I forgot to answer your first question, no, emotion is not the determining factor about sentience for me.

Modifié par JesseLee202, 10 septembre 2012 - 09:58 .

[Ryzaki]

...you don't build a memorial (and take care of it. All pro bono) for someone because you have no emotions. Regret is an emotion.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 septembre 2012 - 12:03 .

[razzy1319]

 @Dean_The_Young

Er.. yes. Ever heard of Mutually Assured Destruction? The USA and USSR's plan for "self defense"? Wherein even if one side was able to survive the other's attack, most of the world's inhabitants even the attackers would die of radiation and nuclear winter.

The ultimate act of spite though, the example above, would have given that casualty rate.

Given that Rannoch was toxic and the Geth had to clean it up as stated by one of the posters above, wouldnt it be a fair assumption that the Quarians poisoned the well? salted the earth? Wouldnt that mean they already massacred what was left of their people? and those evacuating were literally the only ones able to or allowed to? 

@JesseLee202

"We do not experience fear as you would..." - Legion

But they still do... you know... experience fear.

"But we have no DESIRE to be exterminated..." - Legion

Desire isnt an emotion nowadays? link

"...Why did'nt you fix [the hole] sooner or with something else?" - Shepard
"No data available" - Legion
 
That isnt proof of having emotions but I'm assuming it's a subtle hint that there are some things Geth cant quite explain logically like the emotion of admiration. Another one of these hints is Legion's rifle in ME3.  

I brought up emotion because its the only thing you answered. In light of that, you didnt really answer my question. What is your criteria for sentience?

My point in bringing up sentience is your line "Genocide of toasters is not wrong". I mistakenly assumed that you did not believe the Geth were sentient thus there is nothing wrong with exterminating them. 

So now what I am getting from you is "Sentience doesnt matter. If I don't care about them, Genocide is a perfectly acceptable action"
 

[Dean_the_Young]

razzy1319 wrote...

 @Dean_The_Young

Er.. yes. Ever heard of Mutually Assured Destruction? The USA and USSR's plan for "self defense"? Wherein even if one side was able to survive the other's attack, most of the world's inhabitants even the attackers would die of radiation and nuclear winter.

The USA and USSR weren't 1% of the world's population, and the concept of MAD is one of mutual aggression, it was a policy of system and deliberate genocide on both sides. It was a deterence, not defense.

Likewise, MAD was never a credible player for destroying the entire world, because most of the world wasn't targets of interest. MAD stood a good chance at destroying Western Civilization (and China) as we know it, but a total extinction event it was unlikely to be.

Given that Rannoch was toxic and the Geth had to clean it up as stated by one of the posters above, wouldnt it be a fair assumption that the Quarians poisoned the well? salted the earth? Wouldnt that mean they already massacred what was left of their people? and those evacuating were literally the only ones able to or allowed to?

None of those are fair assumptions. As metaphors and in practice, those are all policies that are only counter-productive in opposing the Geth.

This is the same bizaar logic that characterizes the Rannoch arc: that the Quarians are the sole responsible party for all the incredibly stupid things that they are party to. Except in this case no one has made any case that they are responsible for destroying their population except in apologism like yours.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 11 septembre 2012 - 12:59 .