164 réponses à ce sujet

[Dendio1]

its clear to me that once the geth accepted the reaper upgrades their position on the matter changed. It makes sense in alot of ways, as TIM said why destroy when you can control

Modifié par Dendio1, 11 septembre 2012 - 01:04 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The study of what constitutes emotion is quite complex. It really can't be broken down into a short snippet in a forum post or in a Wikipedia article. People spend years studying how to analyze and treat emotional disorders and they have to be able to know what is healthy and what is not. English is also not a very good language for expressing precision either. It is quite vague. Things can take on multiple meanings.

Razzy1319's post to JessyLee202 about Legion is all about how Legion feels. Legion was being voiced by a human actor. Regardless of how neutral the actor was trying to be, there is still some emotion coming through. We also must remember that in this installment of ME Walters was all about making everyone "feel". Legion is trying to communicate in English which is what Shepard understands. "Desire" is a word Shepard understands. "Want" would also be a word that Shepard would understand, but desire sounds more "intelligent" so that word was used. Remember humans wrote the dialogue. So the Geth's 1s and 0s need to be converted into English.

In the war room, Legion will bring up this big ball showing the reaper code and talk about how uploading it will make the Geth true AI. You may not think it's a good idea because the reaper is using that code to control the Geth. So you can logically talk Legion out of that, and Legion will agree that it is a bad idea. Later, Legion will talk about the plan and doing that upload again. Legion also does some very obvious emotional behavior expressing shame as to having "code of old machines" running in its platform, and Shepard calls out Legion for lying to her repeatedly about their agreements. This is in the renegade conversation tree. If you played paragon you might not have seen it (most people play paragon). Legion apologizes repeatedly. In the end Legion admits it is no better than organics.

So you now have a new deck of cards. You know you got the Quarian spin of the Morning War and the Quarian attack from the Quarians. And now you can safely guess that you got the Geth spin on the Morning War and the Quarian attack and the Geth spin on why they accepted the reaper aid. Now as a renegon things get muddy but are leaning Quarian (just because the Quarians are "dirty suitrats" according to BW). As a paragon you're still seeing through Geth colored glasses (they were washed and waxed this morning). As a paragade things are muddy but are still leaning Geth. As a renegade it's fry the toasters.

Then you kill the reaper, and now you are faced with the third time after Legion has agreed twice that uploading that code is a bad idea, when Legion starts uploading the code anyway. This is like a child testing the limits of a parent, except now it is a death for the Geth, which at the moment have the sentience of varren, except for Legion, or death for the Quarians which at the moment have the sentience of you if let Legion upload that code.

1) Legion is breaking its word for the third time.
2) The Geth at the moment, except for Legion, have the sentience of varren
3) If Legion is successful in uploading the code, the Quarians are extinct.

The optimal solution is peace. However, if there is no peace option available, the solution is obvious. Legion has to die to save the Quarians. I will always save the Quarians or do the peace option.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 11 septembre 2012 - 01:24 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The optimal solution is peace. However, if there is no peace option available, the solution is obvious. Legion has to die to save the Quarians. I will always save the Quarians or do the peace option.

...And I will always save the geth or do the peace option because the quarians attacked after being specifically told not to attack under any circumstances.

I've spent two and a half games saving people who thought they knew better than me. Now is the time for them to face the consequences of their own damn actions.

[JesseLee202]

razzy1319 wrote...

@JesseLee202

"We do not experience fear as you would..." - Legion

But they still do... you know... experience fear.

You have proof to back that up? Legion says that they don't experience fear as we would, same concept with EDI saying "likes it" as short-hand.

"But we have no DESIRE to be exterminated..." - Legion

Desire isnt an emotion nowadays? link 

Legion says those things, just like when EDI says that it "likes it" as short-hand.

"...Why did'nt you fix [the hole] sooner or with something else?" - Shepard
"No data available" - Legion

So... not having data = having emotions... not the best argument.
 

That isnt proof of having emotions but I'm assuming it's a subtle hint that there are some things Geth cant quite explain logically like the emotion of admiration.

Or its not emotion, and instead them trying to emulate it.

Another one of these hints is Legion's rifle in ME3.

Really, "it is an efficient model"... Maybe Legion said that because it IS an efficient model...

I brought up emotion because its the only thing you answered.

No, I said that I believe synthetics only emulate life, they aren't trully alive.

In light of that, you didnt really answer my question.

And you never answered mine...

What is your criteria for sentience?

I'll tell you the Geth don't meet it.

My point in bringing up sentience is your line "Genocide of toasters is not wrong". I mistakenly assumed that you did not believe the Geth were sentient thus there is nothing wrong with exterminating them.

No, that is actually my view, not to mention its justice for the billions of lives lost in the morning war. Same thing applies to the Reapers in the destroy ending.

So now what I am getting from you is "Sentience doesnt matter. If I don't care about them, Genocide is a perfectly acceptable action"

Were did I say this? The Geth are not sentient. By MY standards.

Genocide of computers is not wrong.

inb4 "we are just computers too!", no we aren't, and having emotions factors heavily in this part.

Modifié par JesseLee202, 11 septembre 2012 - 01:38 .

[Ryzaki]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

The more of this thread I read, the more I notice what an inconsistently-written and portrayed race the geth are. They're almost as bad as Cerberus.

This is what happens when you don't plan your series ahead.

I agree with you on this. The mind boggles.

They have no emotion...yet the game has Legion express several emotions, they're completely logical...yet we see them operate on things that aren't logic more than once (what's the point of having a shrine for Quarians on Rannoch? What's the point of even staying NEAR Rannoch? It being "home" to them makes the most sense but that gives them a sense of possession and other emotions something that AIs don't usually have.) Their whole staying behind the veil can been seen as fear as easily as safety isolation.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 septembre 2012 - 01:40 .

[JesseLee202]

wow, too many quotes...

I don't think anyone is going to change their world view via the BSN, this is a pointless argument, I bid thee farewell.

[InvincibleHero]

razzy1319 wrote...

 @Dean_The_Young

Er.. yes. Ever heard of Mutually Assured Destruction? The USA and USSR's plan for "self defense"? Wherein even if one side was able to survive the other's attack, most of the world's inhabitants even the attackers would die of radiation and nuclear winter.

The ultimate act of spite though, the example above, would have given that casualty rate.

Given that Rannoch was toxic and the Geth had to clean it up as stated by one of the posters above, wouldnt it be a fair assumption that the Quarians poisoned the well? salted the earth? Wouldnt that mean they already massacred what was left of their people? and those evacuating were literally the only ones able to or allowed to? 

@JesseLee202

"We do not experience fear as you would..." - Legion

But they still do... you know... experience fear.

"But we have no DESIRE to be exterminated..." - Legion

Desire isnt an emotion nowadays? link

"...Why did'nt you fix [the hole] sooner or with something else?" - Shepard
"No data available" - Legion
 
That isnt proof of having emotions but I'm assuming it's a subtle hint that there are some things Geth cant quite explain logically like the emotion of admiration. Another one of these hints is Legion's rifle in ME3.  

I brought up emotion because its the only thing you answered. In light of that, you didnt really answer my question. What is your criteria for sentience?

My point in bringing up sentience is your line "Genocide of toasters is not wrong". I mistakenly assumed that you did not believe the Geth were sentient thus there is nothing wrong with exterminating them. 

So now what I am getting from you is "Sentience doesnt matter. If I don't care about them, Genocide is a perfectly acceptable action"
 

You need to play ME2 more or get videos of Legion's speech. In it is clear and stated as fact the quarians did not cause the devastation to Rannoch. The geth used WMDs (biological and radiactive which would not harm geth) to mass exterminate all men, women, children, and the infirm. I disbelieve they let them go becasue they were supposed to be so naive (just born LOL) and "accidently" exterminated almost all quarians. Yet right away would have had the capacity for spaceflight and their own ships built. Where was this armada to prevent them from getting off planet.

Maybe they decided later well this small number of quarians left yet snuffing them out will bring all other organics into war with us and geth will be utterly destroyed so the quarians were left to be space nomads. It is obvipus the geth were planetbound for a long time. Each planet had its own geth planned genocide on world. Each planet had small numbers of those that fled or were offworld to begin with. These are the survivors and it had nothing to do with the generosity of geth.

[huntrrz]

InvincibleHero wrote...

You need to play ME2 more or get videos of Legion's speech. In it is clear and stated as fact the quarians did not cause the devastation to Rannoch. The geth used WMDs (biological and radiactive which would not harm geth) to mass exterminate all men, women, children, and the infirm.

I do not recall this.  Can you link to any YouTube videos?

[Mystiq6]

I must say, I think this entire argument is poop. Legion was humanized the moment he took Shepard's armor.

If the organics vs synthetics theme is to be taken at face value for a moment, the entire point of Rannoch is to show that all the Geth really want is to understand organics. Legion shows this the moment you find him, and he's wearing part of your armor. One of the real points of Rannoch's ending is to make Destroy seem just as bad as the other two.

Story-wise, no, I don't think Legion needed to die. There didn't seem to be any immediate need when the reapers were able to inject their code into the geth platforms without killing a reaper. Do I think it was forced? Just a little. Does it ruin the whole mission for me? Not really.

This is only a problem for the OP because everyone's being a lot more critical of everything because of the game's ending.

[InvincibleHero]

huntrrz wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

You need to play ME2 more or get videos of Legion's speech. In it is clear and stated as fact the quarians did not cause the devastation to Rannoch. The geth used WMDs (biological and radiactive which would not harm geth) to mass exterminate all men, women, children, and the infirm.

I do not recall this.  Can you link to any YouTube videos?

You have to immediately talk to Legion, do loyalty have convo after, and then have one more convo with it before the Omega 4 relay to find out about the morning war. I got it everytime I played. (Easy way you can travel to a hub world without fear of losing crew and that triggers).

To paraphrase the quarians were not the cause of the destruction on their world and obviously there is a lot because 300 years later the geth have not repaired it. So if they didn't then it leaves the geth and reading between the lines you have to assume it is WMDs of some kind which would effectively kill quarians yet leave geth unharmed. Legion did seem kinda evasive and did not take responsiblity at any point for the geth actions.

I don't visit youtube so I wouldn't know an exact link. Sorry.

[razzy1319]

 Legion and the Morning War 

No specific mention of WMDs. but you could assume it from the lines "We did great HARM to them" and "clean the rubble and the toxins".

EDIT:

@JesseLee202

Your criteria for sentience is important for your argument. If being organic is one of them, then yes, this argument pointless. Thanks!



 

Modifié par razzy1319, 11 septembre 2012 - 10:11 .

[fainmaca]

The main thing I dislike about this story arc is the anti-Geth slant it builds up, part of the growing anti-synthetic theme of ME3 in general. This comes into the story through the idea of the Geth needing the Reaper Code to be 'alive'. The need to become individuals to be 'alive'.

I contest this strongly. Why do the Geth need to change their being, give up their unique perspective of the collective consciousness, in order to be considered valid forms of life. In actual fact, giving up their uniqueness IMO makes them less alive. They lose the spark of diversity that life needs, becoming little more than fancy robots as they are forced to conform to some kind of arbitrary measure of what makes a living being.

In short, the Geth were alive before the upgrade. All the upgrade did was kill off that race and replace it with a bland alternative that is closer to our own perspective.

Now, I could tolerate that, if we'd been given an option to support the 'Geth were already alive' ideal. If we could get by without the Code upgrade. Make it an option, entirely valid for some Shepards and their outlook on what makes a living being, but don't force that viewpoint down our throats. Especially if it turns out that the divide between synthetic and organic was what the franchise was all about.

Aside from that, other problems in the narrative were:

Xen cast aside. She had potential to be an awesome antagonist. She could have performed research that led to results she could use in the field against the Geth, eventually leading to a split in the fleet as she convinced captains to go to war. Here's where your words encouraging or discouraging the war would have had impact, deciding how many go to war versus how many hold back. Hell, have her get a hold of the Reaper Code, meaning you have to choose whether to side with her at the cost of the Geth's freedom but with the reward of some very solid technology to use against the Reapers, or eventually convince Geth and Quarian unite to fight her, with the reward of your morals intact and a free Geth, but lost tech and fleet assets.

Legion's forced sacrifice irks me. While touching, it should have been possible to avoid in some way, like Mordin's. The fact is that Mordin's death is more satisfying because I know that I could have avoided it, but that personally the price was too high. On the flip side, saving him is satisfying because you considered it worth the price you paid. Sacrifice feels truly meaningful when you have another path open to you.

[JBPBRC]

fainmaca wrote...

The main thing I dislike about this story arc is the anti-Geth slant it builds up, part of the growing anti-synthetic theme of ME3 in general. This comes into the story through the idea of the Geth needing the Reaper Code to be 'alive'. The need to become individuals to be 'alive'.

I contest this strongly. Why do the Geth need to change their being, give up their unique perspective of the collective consciousness, in order to be considered valid forms of life.

Because art, and Bioware needed to hash out a story to meet EA's deadlines.

[RadicalDisconnect]

JesseLee202 wrote...
*snip

Okay, what are your standards for sentience and sapience then? Or do you arbitrarily decide based on emotions or personal preference?

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 12 septembre 2012 - 09:09 .