183 réponses à ce sujet

[peddroelm]

Here are contents on one PM recived from Chris Schanche 09:57 AM 2012-09-13

"Heya,

So I went ahead and dug deeper into this. ... It looks like you're right, incendiary ammo in particular is stacking in a way with itself that exceeds the expected. I'll have this further researched for future potential fixes, but of course cannot promise anything.

The reason you are seeing the larger stacks with warp, as well as the disappearing warp ticks, is because warp and incendiary ammo both use the same damage effect for their DoT, this means that if an enemy is already warped and taking damage, and incendiary is added, the two effects are combined into one, this of course also works the other way (incendiary first then warp, creating one damage effect). Warp is still the 'owner' which is why when this effect kills a target, warp is the 'killing blow'.

Warp damage over time effects do not stack off each other in the same way as fire effects, so firing two warps back to back will not result in any odd stacking damage, however because it is the same damage type, it does seem to be subject, when combined with incendiary ammo, to incendiary ammo's bug, IE when the two effects are rolled together, incendiary ammo's odd multiplying trait is rolling the warp dot into it as well.

Because warp damage doesn't stack with itself, the effect should be relatively similar whether you use 1 warp or 2 before you begin stacking incendiary ammo effects.
...
Again thanks for your research on this, and for the bugged incendiary ammo I'll pass that information along. "

--Chris Schanche "

Video showcasing how "bad" this can get

HOW TO USE WITH AUTO WEAPONS (PPR, hurricane, ..)

UNLIKE THE OTHER AMMO TYPES INCENDIARY AMMO WILL CAUSE NEXT TO NO DAMAGE TO TARGETS WHILE YOUR AUTO WEAPON KEEPS FIRING ON THE TARGET (incendiary just builds up power)...So if you keep firing until target dies to weapon fire - it would be almost like you are using no ammo consumable at all ... AFTER YOU STOP FIRING AT THE TARGET - INCENDIARY AMMO WILL DO MOST OF ITS BUG INFLATED DAMAGE over a period of 3 seconds ... So using incendiary ammo with a automatic weapon involves shooting the target until it gets to mid/low health and then switching to another target (at which point all the built up potential of incendiary kicks in and kills the old target)...

That also applies to flamer (similar stacking mechanics (sans the extra damage BUG)) ... Most Much of the flamer damage will be applied as DOT after you stop firing it at the target ...


Conclusions of the incendiary ammo tests so far

- Incendiary ammo adds its percentage of weapon damage as DOT split in 6 equal ticks over 3 seconds...

- Incendiary ammo cancels (absorbs) some of other DOTs in effect on target (incendiary ammo , warp , flamer and inferno grenade) and instead buff its own 6 DOT ticks (damage inflicted will be (much) higher than if the dots were to apply normally - this being the buggy part)

- The above (incendiary dot canceling & damage pumping can apply multiple times) - as long as the next bullet/pellet hits before the incendiary DOT runs out (3 second window) (or any other DOT effect) ....Some intermediary DOT ticks will apply between weapon bullet/pellet shots (not all (most of) will be canceled) but the bulk of the damage will be delivered by the last 6 DOT ticks from the last incendiary application ... Stacking DOT ticks will apply normally to the target every 0.5 seconds with 6 extra dot ticks after you stopped firing .
phaeston incendiary ammo example

- Tested DOT that will not interact with incendiary ammo DOT : Annihilation Field , Dark Channel , Reave, Kishok DOT, Biotic Bubble Warp , Carnage, Balistic Blades , Incinerate , Arc Grenade , Shadow Strike , Smash , Lash

- Warp & incendiary combined DOT gets WARP multipliers vs defenses - (this allows incendiary ammo DOT to affect barriers and shields and also more damage vs armor)

Precisely 
vs  Health Armor Shield Barrier multiplier 
Incendiary     1  1  0  0    
Warp (typical spec)  1 2.25 0.5 3



- incendiary ammo applied over inferno grenade DOT (1 shot) will combine the DOTs resulting roughfully in the application of the inferno grenade damage over 3 seconds instead of 8... UPDATE from Tyhw - if you keep stacking the incendiary ammo over this combined DOT (multiple shots) incendiary ammo DOT will keep stacking the inflated value even higher ...
Tyhw's inferno grenade+ incendiary ammo thread

-
Tyhw's incinerate + incendiary ammo thread

also this post has nice information presentation

Reegar & incendiary IV tests on turian sentinel ...
Warp + Reegar
warp + warp + reegar
Some N7 Fury damage tests (biotic detonations, DOTs , and PPR & the incendiary ammo BUG)
Asari Justicar Tests (Bubble Debuff , Warp , Reave , Kishok) & incendiary ammo
Various Carnage, flamer , balistic blades, inferno grenades, incinerate , arc grenade , Shadow Strike, Smash, Lash tests (with vironblood's help)

Turian Sentinel

Paladin IV (((531.1 - 424.9) / 9) * (4 - 1)) + 424.9 = 460.3 base damage (25% WD EB)

30% PD TA
30% WD passive
Warp 250 * (1+0.2) // Detonation//expose//pierce benefits its own dot

AP ammo 30% ammo damage 75% armor piercing

"The power damage bonus is effective on both the impact (75%) and DoT (25%). If evo 3 expose is taken, a single Warp's impact damage does not benefit from its own expose. The DoT however, does." corlist tests .

The nasty mumbers ...

Test subject Silver Geth Prime 7875 // 11250

/////////////////////////////////////
/////////////////////////////////////


Test armor shot

11250 - 10405.9453 = 844.0547
(460.3 * 0.3) + (460.3 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.3)) - (30 * (1 - 0.75)) = 844.055 OK


11111.9101 (11250 - 11111.9101 = 138.0899) (11250 - 11111.9101) / 0.3 = 460.299667 ammo damage is 30% of 460.3 base damage and applied before weapon damage
10405.9453 (11111.9101 - 10405.9453 = 705.9648) actual weapon damage

Now warp

Target HP        Damage Inflicted
10617.187500 632.8125 (impact)
10605.058594 12.128906
10592.929688 12.128906
10580.800781 12.128906
10568.671875 12.128906
10556.542969 12.128906
10544.414063 12.128906
10532.285156 12.128906
10520.156250 12.128906
10508.027344 12.128906
10495.898438 12.128906
10483.769531 12.128906
10471.640625 12.128906
10459.511719 12.128906
10447.382813 12.128906
10435.253906 12.128906
10423.125000 12.128906
10410.996094 12.128906
10398.867188 12.128906
10386.738281 12.128906
10374.609375 12.128906


Calculated

250 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.5 * 1.5 * 0.75 = 632.8125 OK

Total DOT
10617.1875 - 10374.609375 = 242.578125
250 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.5 * 1.5 * 0.25 = 210.9375 NOT OK
250 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.5 * 1.5 * 0.25 * 1.15 = 242.5781 OK (corlist was right - warp expose)

20 DOT ticks (*0.25/20 per tick or *0.25*1.15/20 in case of pierce )

//////////////////////////////////////////////////
//////////////////////////////////////////////////

Warp Over Warp

10617.187500 632.8125 (impact damage first warp)
10605.058594 12.128906
10592.929688 12.128906
10580.800781 12.128906
10568.671875 12.128906
10556.542969 12.128906
10544.414063 12.128906
10532.285156 12.128906
9804.550781 727.734375 (632.8125 * 1.15 = 727.734375 OK second warp impact damage gets pierce bonus)
9792.421875 12.128906
9780.292969 12.128906
9768.164063 12.128906
9756.035156 12.128906
9743.906250 12.128906
9731.777344 12.128906
9719.648438 12.128906
9707.519531 12.128906
9695.390625 12.128906
9683.261719 12.128906
9671.132813 12.128906
9659.003906 12.128906
9646.875000 12.128906
9634.746094 12.128906
9622.617188 12.128906
9610.488281 12.128906
9598.359375 12.128906
9586.230469 12.128906
9574.101563 12.128906
9561.972656 12.128906
9549.843750 12.128906
9537.714844 12.128906
9525.585938 12.128906
9513.457031 12.128906
9501.328125 12.128906
9489.199219 12.128906
9477.070313 12.128906
9464.941406 12.128906
9452.812500 12.128906
9440.683594 12.128906
9428.554688 12.128906
9416.425781 12.128906
9404.296875 12.128906

20 + 20 DOT ticks - same damage per tick - WARP PIERCE DEBUFF DOESN'T STACK WITH ITSELF

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Paladin shot with warp debuff

10617.187500 632.8125
10605.058594 12.128906
10592.929688 12.128906
10580.800781 12.128906
10568.671875 12.128906
10430.582031 138.089844 (ammo damage = 460.3 * 0.3 = 138.09 Pierce Does NOT APPLY TO AMMO POWER DAMAGE)
9613.847656 816.734375 (weapon damage 460.3 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.3) * 1.15 - 30 * (1 - 0.5) * (1 - 0.75) = 816.73475 applies same as other debuffs)
9589.589844 12.128906
9577.460938 12.128906
9565.332031 12.128906
9553.203125 12.128906
9541.074219 12.128906
9528.945313 12.128906
9516.816406 12.128906
9504.687500 12.128906
9492.558594 12.128906
9480.429688 12.128906
9468.300781 12.128906
9456.171875 12.128906
9444.042969 12.128906
9431.914063 12.128906
9419.785156 12.128906

20 warp dot tics as before


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Warp + warp + paladin shot

10617.187500 632.8125 first warp impact damage OK
10605.058594 12.128906
10592.929688 12.128906
10580.800781 12.128906
10568.671875 12.128906
10556.542969 12.128906
10544.414063 12.128906
10532.285156 12.128906
10520.156250 12.128906
10508.027344 12.128906
10495.898438 12.128906
9768.164063 727.734375 second warp impact damage OK
9756.035156 12.128906
9743.906250 12.128906
9731.777344 12.128906
9719.648438 12.128906
9707.519531 12.128906
9695.390625 12.128906
9683.261719 12.128906
9671.132813 12.128906
9659.003906 12.128906
9646.875000 12.128906
9634.746094 12.128906
9622.617188 12.128906
9484.527344 138.089844 ammo damage same OK
8664.042969 820.484375 weapon damage 3.75 points of extra damage ?! Should test with different weapon - would differnce scale (armor weaking related) ?
8651.914063 12.128906
8639.785156 12.128906
8627.656250 12.128906
8615.527344 12.128906
8603.398438 12.128906
8591.269531 12.128906
8579.140625 12.128906
8567.011719 12.128906
8554.882813 12.128906
8542.753906 12.128906
8530.625000 12.128906
8518.496094 12.128906
8506.367188 12.128906
8494.238281 12.128906
8482.109375 12.128906
8469.980469 12.128906
8457.851563 12.128906
8445.722656 12.128906

40 warp dot ticks as expected

(test repeated - anomaly consitent)
========================================
========================================
========================================
=========================================

Same tests with Incendiary ammo III


10566.535156 683.464844 (weapon damage) (460.3 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.3)) - 30 = 683.465 OK
10543.520508 23.014648
10520.505859 23.014648
10497.491211 23.014648
10474.476563 23.014648
10451.461914 23.014648
10428.447266 23.014648 (460.3 * 0.3) / 6 = 23.015 OK

6 incendiary ammo dot ticks

NO Shenigans so far
/////////////////////////

2 Paladin shots
10566.535156 683.464844 weapon damage OK
10543.520508 23.014648
9860.055664 683.464844 weapon damage OK
9773.250977 86.804688 BUG (WHOAW)
9686.446289 86.804688
9599.641602 86.804688
9512.836914 86.804688
9426.032227 86.804688
9339.227539 86.804688


The last 6 ticks of incendiary do too much damage
////////////////////////
////////////////////////


3 Paladin Shots


10566.535156 683.464844 weapon damage OK
10543.520508 23.014648
10520.505859 23.014648
9837.041016 683.464844 weapon damage OK (no armor weakening from incendiary ammo)
9754.815430 82.225586
9071.350586 683.464844 weapon damage OK
8936.387695 134.962891 o_O BUG
8801.424805 134.962891
8666.461914 134.962891
8531.499023 134.962891
8396.536133 134.962891
8261.573242 134.962891

//////////////////////
//////////////////////
//////////////////////

warp + paladin


10617.187500 632.8125 (ok warp impact damage) 250 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.5 * 1.5 * 0.75
10605.058594 12.128906 (ok warp tick damage)
10592.929688 12.128906
10580.800781 12.128906
10568.671875 12.128906
10556.542969 12.128906
10544.414063 12.128906
10532.285156 12.128906
10520.156250 12.128906
10508.027344 12.128906
10495.898438 12.128906
10483.769531 12.128906
10471.640625 12.128906
9666.156250 805.484375 ((460.3 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.3)) * 1.15) - (30 * (1 - 0.5)) = 805.48475 OK weapon damage
9472.250000 193.906250 O_O O_o O_O O_o O_O O_o O_O O_o
9278.343750 193.906250
9084.437500 193.906250
8890.531250 193.906250
8696.625000 193.906250
8502.718750 193.906250

Dot effects are getting canceled past incendiary application - only the 6 ticks from the last incendiary remain - BUT THEY DO MASSIVE DAMAGE...

==========================
===========================
Warp + paladin + paladin + paladin



10617.187500 632.8125 (ok warp impact damage) 250 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3) * 1.5 * 1.5 * 0.75
10605.058594 12.128906 Normal Warp DOT
10592.929688 12.128906
10580.800781 12.128906
10568.671875 12.128906
10556.542969 12.128906
9751.058594 805.484375 ((460.3 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.3)) * 1.15) - (30 * (1 - 0.5)) = 805.48475 OK weapon damage
9542.250977 208.807617
9333.443359 208.807617
8527.958984 805.484375 ((460.3 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.3)) * 1.15) - (30 * (1 - 0.5)) = 805.48475 OK weapon damage
8219.335938 308.623047
7413.851074 805.484863 ((460.3 * (1 + 0.25 + 0.3)) * 1.15) - (30 * (1 - 0.5)) = 805.48475 OK weapon damage
6987.770020 426.081055 Incendiary DOT tick This is getting ridiculous
6561.688965 426.081055
6135.607910 426.081055
5709.526855 426.081055
5283.445801 426.081055
4857.364746 426.081055

Modifié par peddroelmz, 04 mai 2013 - 06:08 .

[MIA115]

Please make this readable instead of just a wall of numbers.

[corporal doody]

MATH BE DAMNED!!!!


IF THAT WAS INDEED MATH I MEAN.....cuz it looked like a bunch of numbers...LISTED!


besides...i dont get it anyways...says incendiary ammo issue...but then AP ammo is brought up...did i miss something in that mass of numbers?


MASS NUMBER EFFECT!!

Modifié par corporal doody, 08 septembre 2012 - 07:21 .

[Waffelmeister]

MIA115 wrote...

Please make this readable instead of just a wall of numbers.

Agreed, tl;dr!

[Merkit91]

Do we have any word from BioWare about this bug? Is it safe to use it?

[DHKany]

I can make one mean bowl of cereal.

[Saradas85]

understood

[OblivionDawn]

I feel like there's a point in here somewhere.

[peddroelm]

I will give you a TL;DR version ... must conclude tests first ...

[Los Tacos Bueno]

Um. What's the bug? And the result? Anything?

[AppealToReason]

The only incediary bug I know is that the DOT stops if the Banshee or Phantom does their aborbing thing.

[landylan]

This thread is pointless. You need a paragraph that explains what you're testing. If someone doesn't believe your findings, they'll check the long list of numbers.

[Ramsutin]

Saradas85 wrote...

understood

[jacob92883]

A simple explanation is required for the masses, myself included, to understand what you just posted. Thank you

[FeralJester616]

jacob92883 wrote...

A simple explanation is required for the masses, myself included, to understand what you just posted. Thank you

/signed

[Asebstos]

Well, unless I'm misunderstanding this... Incendiary Ammo + the debuff from Warp = totally insane DOT that gets more insane the more times you apply the ammo effect, which would mean that Warp + Incendiary Ammo on a Reegar or PPR = raging inferno of DOT fire damage.

Edit: The inital tests appear to be seeing if the warp debuff stacks with itself in a weird way or if the warp debuff stacks with AP ammo in a weird way, the answer appears to be 'no'.

Modifié par Asebstos, 08 septembre 2012 - 07:34 .

[synapsefire]

I love your posts bro and I appreciate the testing but it's just horrible to extract the information from them that is actually useful.

[corporal doody]

Asebstos wrote...

Well, unless I'm misunderstanding this... Incendiary Ammo + the debuff from Warp = totally insane DOT that gets more insane the more times you apply the ammo effect, which would mean that Warp + Incendiary Ammo on a Reegar or PPR = raging inferno of DOT fire damage.

Edit: The inital tests appear to be seeing if the warp debuff stacks with itself in a weird way or if the warp debuff stacks with AP ammo in a weird way, the answer appears to be 'no'.

but...but.....Incinerate and incendiary ammo stack too!!!

and reave reave reave reave reave....warp ammo...um....or incendiary

[chcknwng]

Maths with just numbers, no formulas means nothing.

[IElitePredatorI]

How do people work this stuff out?

[Nicegil2012]

Woow thanks for the answers!!! This math tells me that my father did leave me on purpose when I was a child. YAAAAAAAAAAY!

[Asebstos]

Here, I'll explain with some of his numbers

This is the data for hitting a target with warp and then shooting it 3 times with a Paladin using Incendiary ammo. I've cleaned it up by removing the target's hp, only leaving how much damage is being done.

632.8125 <---- this is the initial hit from Warp on the target. It is normal.
12.128906 <---- this is the DOT damage from Warp. It is normal.
12.128906
12.128906
12.128906
12.128906
805.484375 <---- this is the 1st shot from the Paladin. The number matches what it should be.
208.807617 <---- this is the DOT after the 1st shot
208.807617
805.484375 <---- this is the 2nd shot. It is normal.
308.623047 <---- this is the DOT after the 2nd shot. It is getting crazy high.
805.484863 <--- this is the 3rd shot, it is normal.
426.081055<---- this is the DOT after the 3rd shot, it is insane!
426.081055
426.081055
426.081055
426.081055
426.081055

After the 3rd shot the DOT does 6 ticks at around 426 damage.... for over 2556 points of damage from DOT! That's 3x more damage than the initial hit.

[Beerfish]

I couldn't figure out the numbers so instead I thought I would present this thread with a .....



Baby elephant!

[Ziegrif]

Peddro I think it's better you tell us clearly first what you are testing and give us a clear anwer of what the bug is.
Then give us your hypothesis, conduct tests, after that update the results.
This... this is not science it's a bunch of answers with vague questions and no point anywhere.

Seriously interested on the bug though.

Asebstos wrote...

Here, I'll explain with some of his numbers

This is the data for hitting a target with warp and then shooting it 3 times with a Paladin using Incendiary ammo. I've cleaned it up by removing the target's hp, only leaving how much damage is being done.

632.8125 <---- this is the initial hit from Warp on the target. It is normal.
12.128906 <---- this is the DOT damage from Warp. It is normal.
12.128906
12.128906
12.128906
12.128906
805.484375 <---- this is the 1st shot from the Paladin. The number matches what it should be.
208.807617 <---- this is the DOT after the 1st shot
208.807617
805.484375 <---- this is the 2nd shot. It is normal.
308.623047 <---- this is the DOT after the 2nd shot. It is getting crazy high.
805.484863 <--- this is the 3rd shot, it is normal.
426.081055<---- this is the DOT after the 3rd shot, it is insane!
426.081055
426.081055
426.081055
426.081055
426.081055

After the 3rd shot the DOT does 6 ticks at around 426 damage.... for over 2556 points of damage from DOT! That's 3x more damage than the initial hit.

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!

Incendiary + warp DoTs bug the out and do insane amounts of damage?! Those dmg numbers are INSANE!
What the hell?!

Modifié par Ziegrif, 08 septembre 2012 - 07:55 .

[Mendelevosa]