335 réponses à ce sujet

[HiddenInWar]

Rubios wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

This is still going? You guys know what cheered me up? Non-blonde Femshep and Tali:

 

one of my favorites. Shame garrus wasn't s/s. That would have been amazing.

[Shermos]

I really don't see the problem here. In ME1, Tali is about 20 and in ME2 she has aged a couple of years with her voice a little bit deeper to show she is now an adult. Shepard decides he likes her and they hook up. In some real world cultures, it is quite normal for a woman to marry an older man (like 5-10 years older I mean).

It's not like you are forced to romance her either. She is a romance OPTION.

One thing you did say OP which I agree with is that the endings were dumbed down in the EC. None of them were very different than what I had imagined in my head canon. I liked being left to imagine the possibilities. I think Bioware has realised that most people aren't as smart and imaginiative as they gave them credit for. Sad but true.

Modifié par Shermos, 09 septembre 2012 - 04:59 .

[blacqout]

Shermos wrote...

I really don't see the problem here. In ME1, Tali is about 20 and in ME2 she has aged a couple of years with her voice a little bit deeper to show she is now an adult. Shepard decides he likes her and they hook up. In some real world cultures, it is quite normal for a woman to marry an older man (like 5-10 years older I mean).

It's not like you are forced to romance her either. She is a romance OPTION.

One thing you did say OP which I agree with is that the endings were dumbed down in the EC. None of them were very different than what I had imagined in my head canon. I liked being left to imagine the possibilities. I think Bioware has realised that most people aren't as smart and imaginiative as they gave them credit for. Sad but true.

We only found out her age in ME2, and this made her far older than she was presented to be in the first game. The age gap isn't the problem, so much as how you Tali is purposefully made to seem in ME1.

An 18 year old and a 38 year old getting together is fine. An 8 year old and a 28 year old obviously isn't.

[blacqout]

SackofCat wrote...

If you remove the insults and self-aggrandizement and assume the OPer's complaints are extreme hyperbole, assume his headcanon about Tali's voice and age are true, assume he has some insider info about Bioware's femshep poll and assume everyone that did not want a blond Shepard were misogynists (somehow), then he is just a condescending person that purposefully aggravates people online.

OPer,
You may actually be angry about something else but for whatever reason cannot express it. Lashing out at others is irresponsible. "The fans" are not responsible for you feeling unable to control your life.

Maybe you just want to feel, or justify why, you feel like a victim. "Look at all these mean, evil people being mean and saying mean things." the ban that is sure to come for your inflammatory posts will help.

And I am helping too, see?

If you showed a modicum of respect people might take you seriously but I am certain you already knew that.

You opening paragraph doesn't make sense. If you assume everything i said is true, then i'm just a condescending person that aggravates people online? Surely that could only be seen to be the case if i was knowingly spreading mistruths. 

I'm really not sure where any of you got the idea that i was painting everyone that voted against the blonde Shepard in the hastily-put together secondary poll as a bigot, either. Enough of the complainers were using misogynystic and anti-blonde rhetoric to make up a significant portion, and BioWare have been shown to listen to them. 

I'll reserve my respect for those that don't purposefully misrepresent my thoughts.

[StElmo]

blacqout wrote...

Shermos wrote...

I really don't see the problem here. In ME1, Tali is about 20 and in ME2 she has aged a couple of years with her voice a little bit deeper to show she is now an adult. Shepard decides he likes her and they hook up. In some real world cultures, it is quite normal for a woman to marry an older man (like 5-10 years older I mean).

It's not like you are forced to romance her either. She is a romance OPTION.

One thing you did say OP which I agree with is that the endings were dumbed down in the EC. None of them were very different than what I had imagined in my head canon. I liked being left to imagine the possibilities. I think Bioware has realised that most people aren't as smart and imaginiative as they gave them credit for. Sad but true.

We only found out her age in ME2, and this made her far older than she was presented to be in the first game. The age gap isn't the problem, so much as how you Tali is purposefully made to seem in ME1.

An 18 year old and a 38 year old getting together is fine. An 8 year old and a 28 year old obviously isn't.

Are you saying that people who liked tali are pedophiles who thought she was 16 or something gross?

I always assumed she is about 19 - as in, naive, sheltered adult, not teen or anything wierd like that.

Jesus.

Oh well, I romanced Liara, because Liara is awesome so this aint my fight.

[StElmo]

Shermos wrote...

. In some real world cultures, it is quite normal for a woman to marry an older man (like 5-10 years older I mean).

In some real world cultures you can stone a woman to death for being seen with another man. Cultural existence does not make something right.

But age gap isn't really a massive issue if the people involved are conesnting actual adults, which I think everyone assumed Tali was indeed an adult.

Modifié par StElmo, 09 septembre 2012 - 09:14 .

[JBPBRC]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Are you serious? They changed her hair color. People do that. Is it misogyny in the case of Miranda's hair changing? I don't think so. Her hair changes from ME2 to ME3.

She has hair? I never noticed...

[blacqout]

StElmo wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Shermos wrote...

I really don't see the problem here. In ME1, Tali is about 20 and in ME2 she has aged a couple of years with her voice a little bit deeper to show she is now an adult. Shepard decides he likes her and they hook up. In some real world cultures, it is quite normal for a woman to marry an older man (like 5-10 years older I mean).

It's not like you are forced to romance her either. She is a romance OPTION.

One thing you did say OP which I agree with is that the endings were dumbed down in the EC. None of them were very different than what I had imagined in my head canon. I liked being left to imagine the possibilities. I think Bioware has realised that most people aren't as smart and imaginiative as they gave them credit for. Sad but true.

We only found out her age in ME2, and this made her far older than she was presented to be in the first game. The age gap isn't the problem, so much as how you Tali is purposefully made to seem in ME1.

An 18 year old and a 38 year old getting together is fine. An 8 year old and a 28 year old obviously isn't.

Are you saying that people who liked tali are pedophiles who thought she was 16 or something gross?

I always assumed she is about 19 - as in, naive, sheltered adult, not teen or anything wierd like that.

Jesus.

Oh well, I romanced Liara, because Liara is awesome so this aint my fight.

Not paedophiles, no - Tali has clearly reached puberty. 

I just think they're creepy. A 29 year old with a 16 year old conjures up all sorts of negative imagery.

[StElmo]

blacqout wrote...

StElmo wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Shermos wrote...

I really don't see the problem here. In ME1, Tali is about 20 and in ME2 she has aged a couple of years with her voice a little bit deeper to show she is now an adult. Shepard decides he likes her and they hook up. In some real world cultures, it is quite normal for a woman to marry an older man (like 5-10 years older I mean).

It's not like you are forced to romance her either. She is a romance OPTION.

One thing you did say OP which I agree with is that the endings were dumbed down in the EC. None of them were very different than what I had imagined in my head canon. I liked being left to imagine the possibilities. I think Bioware has realised that most people aren't as smart and imaginiative as they gave them credit for. Sad but true.

We only found out her age in ME2, and this made her far older than she was presented to be in the first game. The age gap isn't the problem, so much as how you Tali is purposefully made to seem in ME1.

An 18 year old and a 38 year old getting together is fine. An 8 year old and a 28 year old obviously isn't.

Are you saying that people who liked tali are pedophiles who thought she was 16 or something gross?

I always assumed she is about 19 - as in, naive, sheltered adult, not teen or anything wierd like that.

Jesus.

Oh well, I romanced Liara, because Liara is awesome so this aint my fight.

Not paedophiles, no - Tali has clearly reached puberty. 

I just think they're creepy. A 29 year old with a 16 year old conjures up all sorts of negative imagery.

You are assuming they thought she's 16 - what if they thought "oh she's 20" - not creepy if they thought she was 20 and indeed it was confirmed by BW that she was 20.

My point is you think these people want her to be young, but that is an assumption on your part.

You can't romance wrex, garrus and a bunch of other characters in the first game, does that make them children?

Your premise assumes the worst of people. Gamers have a pretty bad reputation with their wierd anime style interests (which I do think is damn creepy), but I think to assume Tali fans are creeps is to unfairly categorize all of them. Some of them may be. But there are creeps everywhere, unfortunately.

Also, if BW confirmed she was 20, whats the problem? Its not like she looks young in the game.

Modifié par StElmo, 09 septembre 2012 - 10:11 .

[SackofCat]

Allow me to extract one point from my opening paragraph then:

You accused dismissed other peoples' explanations of the change in Tali's tone as headcanon. Do you have in game evidence to show a discrepancy between Tali's development and any other Quarian?

More importantly, you headcanoned that the reason for Tali's maturity in the two years since her pilgrimage (rite of passage) during the events of ME1 as being motivated by some sexual deviants that Bioware felt compelled to cater to.

There were also several points where you (purposefully or not) argued based on false information. Without going back through the thread, you argued against someone that mentioned that Quarians are sent out into the world on their own and used a Homeworlds comic as evidence. It has been established explicitly (ME1 and a few times in Retribution) and implicitly (Lia Vael, Veetor, Retribution and more) that Quarians are indeed sent out on/make their pilgrimage on their own.

A minor mistake, to be sure, but not for someone that repeatedly claims to be more intelligent and perceptive than this or that group.

[SackofCat]

Lol. Never accuse dismiss!

[blacqout]

StElmo wrote...

blacqout wrote...

StElmo wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Shermos wrote...

I really don't see the problem here. In ME1, Tali is about 20 and in ME2 she has aged a couple of years with her voice a little bit deeper to show she is now an adult. Shepard decides he likes her and they hook up. In some real world cultures, it is quite normal for a woman to marry an older man (like 5-10 years older I mean).

It's not like you are forced to romance her either. She is a romance OPTION.

One thing you did say OP which I agree with is that the endings were dumbed down in the EC. None of them were very different than what I had imagined in my head canon. I liked being left to imagine the possibilities. I think Bioware has realised that most people aren't as smart and imaginiative as they gave them credit for. Sad but true.

We only found out her age in ME2, and this made her far older than she was presented to be in the first game. The age gap isn't the problem, so much as how you Tali is purposefully made to seem in ME1.

An 18 year old and a 38 year old getting together is fine. An 8 year old and a 28 year old obviously isn't.

Are you saying that people who liked tali are pedophiles who thought she was 16 or something gross?

I always assumed she is about 19 - as in, naive, sheltered adult, not teen or anything wierd like that.

Jesus.

Oh well, I romanced Liara, because Liara is awesome so this aint my fight.

Not paedophiles, no - Tali has clearly reached puberty. 

I just think they're creepy. A 29 year old with a 16 year old conjures up all sorts of negative imagery.

You are assuming they thought she's 16 - what if they thought "oh she's 20" - not creepy if they thought she was 20 and indeed it was confirmed by BW that she was 20.

My point is you think these people want her to be young, but that is an assumption on your part.

You can't romance wrex, garrus and a bunch of other characters in the first game, does that make them children?

Your premise assumes the worst of people. Gamers have a pretty bad reputation with their wierd anime style interests (which I do think is damn creepy), but I think to assume Tali fans are creeps is to unfairly categorize all of them. Some of them may be. But there are creeps everywhere, unfortunately.

Also, if BW confirmed she was 20, whats the problem? Its not like she looks young in the game.

I don't think that anyone wanted her to be young. I think that she was originally written to be, but some people 'liked' her anyway, forcing BioWare to alter her age in the second game in order to make her a viable, and non-controversial, love interest. 

The problem is that BioWare altered their game to suit the desires of some people that were attracted to a character portrayed as being young. BioWare seem to often alter their games for the sake of portions of the fanbase who, quite frankly, should be getting told to go take a running jump. 

BioWare are pandering to all sorts of scum these days, and no longer taking the more enlightened views of me and my kind into consideration. That's a problem.

[blacqout]

SackofCat wrote...

Allow me to extract one point from my opening paragraph then:

You accused dismissed other peoples' explanations of the change in Tali's tone as headcanon. Do you have in game evidence to show a discrepancy between Tali's development and any other Quarian?

More importantly, you headcanoned that the reason for Tali's maturity in the two years since her pilgrimage (rite of passage) during the events of ME1 as being motivated by some sexual deviants that Bioware felt compelled to cater to.

There were also several points where you (purposefully or not) argued based on false information. Without going back through the thread, you argued against someone that mentioned that Quarians are sent out into the world on their own and used a Homeworlds comic as evidence. It has been established explicitly (ME1 and a few times in Retribution) and implicitly (Lia Vael, Veetor, Retribution and more) that Quarians are indeed sent out on/make their pilgrimage on their own.

A minor mistake, to be sure, but not for someone that repeatedly claims to be more intelligent and perceptive than this or that group.

I actually made no such argument.

I just pointed out that Tali did not spend the more dangerous moments of her pilgrimage alone. This implies that while a Quarian that comes of age is sent out on their own, they're clever enough to seek help or band together when things get too tough... basically meaning they know to avoid unecessary danger. 

I'll be sure to simply explain the implications of any future comments, so that some of you can keep up. I certainly did not claim that the Quarians do not embark on their pilgrimages alone as you are suggesting. 

Modifié par blacqout, 09 septembre 2012 - 10:25 .

[StElmo]

blacqout wrote...

StElmo wrote...

blacqout wrote...

StElmo wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Shermos wrote...

I really don't see the problem here. In ME1, Tali is about 20 and in ME2 she has aged a couple of years with her voice a little bit deeper to show she is now an adult. Shepard decides he likes her and they hook up. In some real world cultures, it is quite normal for a woman to marry an older man (like 5-10 years older I mean).

It's not like you are forced to romance her either. She is a romance OPTION.

One thing you did say OP which I agree with is that the endings were dumbed down in the EC. None of them were very different than what I had imagined in my head canon. I liked being left to imagine the possibilities. I think Bioware has realised that most people aren't as smart and imaginiative as they gave them credit for. Sad but true.

We only found out her age in ME2, and this made her far older than she was presented to be in the first game. The age gap isn't the problem, so much as how you Tali is purposefully made to seem in ME1.

An 18 year old and a 38 year old getting together is fine. An 8 year old and a 28 year old obviously isn't.

Are you saying that people who liked tali are pedophiles who thought she was 16 or something gross?

I always assumed she is about 19 - as in, naive, sheltered adult, not teen or anything wierd like that.

Jesus.

Oh well, I romanced Liara, because Liara is awesome so this aint my fight.

Not paedophiles, no - Tali has clearly reached puberty. 

I just think they're creepy. A 29 year old with a 16 year old conjures up all sorts of negative imagery.

You are assuming they thought she's 16 - what if they thought "oh she's 20" - not creepy if they thought she was 20 and indeed it was confirmed by BW that she was 20.

My point is you think these people want her to be young, but that is an assumption on your part.

You can't romance wrex, garrus and a bunch of other characters in the first game, does that make them children?

Your premise assumes the worst of people. Gamers have a pretty bad reputation with their wierd anime style interests (which I do think is damn creepy), but I think to assume Tali fans are creeps is to unfairly categorize all of them. Some of them may be. But there are creeps everywhere, unfortunately.

Also, if BW confirmed she was 20, whats the problem? Its not like she looks young in the game.

I don't think that anyone wanted her to be young. I think that she was originally written to be, but some people 'liked' her anyway, forcing BioWare to alter her age in the second game in order to make her a viable, and non-controversial, love interest. 

The problem is that BioWare altered their game to suit the desires of some people that were attracted to a character portrayed as being young. BioWare seem to often alter their games for the sake of portions of the fanbase who, quite frankly, should be getting told to go take a running jump. 

BioWare are pandering to all sorts of scum these days, and no longer taking the more enlightened views of me and my kind into consideration. That's a problem.

Okay, well I agree BioWare have altered characters to pander to the sleazy side of the fanbase, I just don;t think Tali is one of them.

Ashley and Liara's cup size is something I am more concerned about, it's pretty gross how sexualized those characters became.

[Dazro]

Greylycantrope wrote...

This is still going? You guys know what cheered me up? Non-blonde Femshep and Tali:

I always thought Tali would be bald....I mean what is the point of having hair when youre always in a life support suit? And that doesn't look like Tali it's Samara! She must be desperate to get in shepard's pants on way or another!

[Brovikk Rasputin]

I am disappoint wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

This is the worst thread ever made.

No I'm pretty sure you made some threads.

And I'm pretty sure none of them were anywhere near this level of ****.

[NM_Che56]

Taboo-XX wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Do you even know what misogyny is?

The hatred of women by men. 
A comment implying that a woman with blonde hair is incapable certainly falls under the definition, unless it is made clear the commentator feels the same way about men with blonde hair.

Are you serious? They changed her hair color. People do that. Is it misogyny in the case of Miranda's hair changing? I don't think so. Her hair changes from ME2 to ME3.

You aren't really arguing anything substantive here.

Miranda was supposed to be blonde.  ANTI-BLONDITES!

[bas_kon]

Since the retcon was to pander the "straight male gamer" it's not a bad retcon, it doesn't matter if she was teen and was never interested in that old man called Shepard in ME1; she changed her interests, aged faster than the rest of the galaxy and destroyed the lore of her species but she's still a good character, because she's a female, has wide hips, and it was for the "straight male gamer".

Kaidan, though, since he's a male atractive human, he's hated by default, no matter if what happened to him and mshep happens everyday irl, his character was "ruined forever" since he wasn't targeted to the "straight male gamer", despite changing nothing about the lore the game or his personality. And the funniest thing is he never really had so many traight male fans back in ME1, but suddenly a lot of "new fans" were upset because he "changed" his mind about mshep. WTF?!

[blacqout]

bas_kon wrote...

Since the retcon was to pander the "straight male gamer" it's not a bad retcon, it doesn't matter if she was teen and was never interested in that old man called Shepard in ME1; she changed her interests, aged faster than the rest of the galaxy and destroyed the lore of her species but she's still a good character, because she's a female, has wide hips, and it was for the "straight male gamer".

Kaidan, though, since he's a male atractive human, he's hated by default, no matter if what happened to him and mshep happens everyday irl, his character was "ruined forever" since he wasn't targeted to the "straight male gamer", despite changing nothing about the lore the game or his personality. And the funniest thing is he never really had so many traight male fans back in ME1, but suddenly a lot of "new fans" were upset because he "changed" his mind about mshep. WTF?!

I quite agree with you. Mass Effect's fanbase is broken.

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

Like I said;

Tali is like Mission Vao. Cute jailbait.

[Village_Idiot]

Hey guys! What's going...

blacqout wrote...

For my 19th birthday my dad bought me a Mercedes CLK cabriolet 500 sport instead of the porsche i wanted. And in 1996 my mother ignored my pleas to have a cesarean and ended up, as expected, giving birth to my sister on Christmas day. 

Every christmas after that was essentially ruined, as i had to wait for her to open her birthday presents before i was allowed to even look at my xmas gifts.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

blacqout wrote...

BioWare are pandering to all sorts of scum these days, and no longer taking the more enlightened views of me and my kind into consideration. That's a problem.

No offense, but if Bioware were to be taking your "enlightened" views as well as your atttitude into account, they probably wouldn't be around at this point. We don't need more Dragon Age 2 or terribad endings.

[I am disappoint]

HiddenInWar wrote...
one of my favorites. Shame garrus wasn't s/s. That would have been amazing.

Nope, it would ruined the integrity of his character.

[blacqout]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

blacqout wrote...

BioWare are pandering to all sorts of scum these days, and no longer taking the more enlightened views of me and my kind into consideration. That's a problem.

No offense, but if Bioware were to be taking your "enlightened" views as well as your atttitude into account, they probably wouldn't be around at this point. We don't need more Dragon Age 2 or terribad endings.

There was exactly one problem with Dragon Age II, and that was the extensive use of recycled environments. BioWare are accutely aware of this, and i would stake my life on it never happening to the same extent in future DA games. 

There was so much good about the game, that i geniunely pity those of you who are unable to look past a cosmetic flaw. With the exception of Jade Empire, it's the best story BW have penned, and the characterisation was awesome. 

[I am disappoint]

blacqout wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

blacqout wrote...

BioWare are pandering to all sorts of scum these days, and no longer taking the more enlightened views of me and my kind into consideration. That's a problem.

No offense, but if Bioware were to be taking your "enlightened" views as well as your atttitude into account, they probably wouldn't be around at this point. We don't need more Dragon Age 2 or terribad endings.

There was exactly one problem with Dragon Age II, and that was the extensive use of recycled environments. BioWare are accutely aware of this, and i would stake my life on it never happening to the same extent in future DA games. 

There was so much good about the game, that i geniunely pity those of you who are unable to look past a cosmetic flaw. With the exception of Jade Empire, it's the best story BW have penned, and the characterisation was awesome. 

A lot of peope had a problem with the plot too.
Bad game is bad.

Modifié par I am disappoint, 09 septembre 2012 - 12:46 .