327 réponses à ce sujet

[Sable Rhapsody]

Norrax wrote...
plus i knew even befor the Leviathan of dis was  annoucend that the next dlc would be  a blatant and shameful way of puting the catalyst forshadow in.

I'd rather have Mass Effect 3 make some sense six months later than not make sense at all, but it's still a poor substitute to a well-structured plot in the first place.

[Blueprotoss]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What. Is. Your. Argument.

Denial won't get you anywhere and Its your fault that you missed the foreshadowing in the 1st place.

Denial of what? 

I'm asking you to make a case for your assertions, you just seem competely incapable of that, whether by a massive sense of arrogance and misplaced superiority, or just a complete inability to because you don't actually have anything to argue with.

I can't miss foreshadowing that's not there. 

Yet you keep on denying the foreshadowing.  I can't force you to see something that you aren't willing to see in the 1st place.

[CELL55]

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What. Is. Your. Argument.

Denial won't get you anywhere and Its your fault that you missed the foreshadowing in the 1st place.

Denial of what? 

I'm asking you to make a case for your assertions, you just seem competely incapable of that, whether by a massive sense of arrogance and misplaced superiority, or just a complete inability to because you don't actually have anything to argue with.

I can't miss foreshadowing that's not there. 

Yet you keep on denying the foreshadowing.  I can't force you to see something that you aren't willing to see in the 1st place.

Perhaps because it's not really there?

[Blueprotoss]

CELL55 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Yet you keep on denying the foreshadowing.  I can't force you to see something that you aren't willing to see in the 1st place.

Perhaps because it's not really there?

If it didn't exist then the IT wouldn't have appeared.  Denying foreshadowing is like saying that hot coffee won't burn your exposed skin.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 11 septembre 2012 - 02:00 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What. Is. Your. Argument.

Denial won't get you anywhere and Its your fault that you missed the foreshadowing in the 1st place.

Denial of what? 

I'm asking you to make a case for your assertions, you just seem competely incapable of that, whether by a massive sense of arrogance and misplaced superiority, or just a complete inability to because you don't actually have anything to argue with.

I can't miss foreshadowing that's not there. 

Yet you keep on denying the foreshadowing.

Yes, I do.

I can't force you to see something that you aren't willing to see in the 1st place.

So you don't have anything to argue with, basically. 

I'm perfectly willing to see foreshadowing. 

I just don't, and you're far to arrogant to even discuss it or accept that someone might have a credible opposing view. 

[Warrior Craess]

yes, they are going to retcon in foreshadowing of the catalyst. That it was pre-planned doesn't matter. The simple fact remains that only the Prothian AI on Thessia mentions anything about something else controling the pattern, but you get "I don't know but it's obvious..." as an answer to the only question you can ask about it. There is nothing further about something that could potentially change the whole aspect of the war. And someone as supposedly versed in war as Shepard, Javik, Wrex, would know this, and report it up the chain. That nothing like this actually happens means the writers intentionally meant to keep you in the dark about it.

[Blueprotoss]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Yes, I do.

So you admitted that you're in denial.

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

So you don't have anything to argue with, basically. 

I'm perfectly willing to see foreshadowing. 

I just don't, and you're far to arrogant to even discuss it or accept that someone might have a credible opposing view.

If you were willing to see the foreshadowing then you wouldn't have purposely avoiding it.

[The Night Mammoth]

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Yes, I do.

So you admitted that you're in denial.

You say that as if someone's provided me with an irefutable case that I'm just too stubborn to accept. 

Surprise! No one has. Especially not you, who's just cited some sh*t about the Geth getting a redesign from an artbook and flung context void random sentences as if I can f*cking read your mind. 

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

So you don't have anything to argue with, basically. 

I'm perfectly willing to see foreshadowing. 

I just don't, and you're far to arrogant to even discuss it or accept that someone might have a credible opposing view.

If you were willing to see the foreshadowing then you wouldn't have purposely avoiding it.

Now you're just desperate to grasp at something to win the argument with without having to support anything you say. 

I'm not 'avoiding' any foreshadowing. There isn't any to avoid. Make a case or sit down. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 11 septembre 2012 - 02:41 .

[palician]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Norrax wrote...
plus i knew even befor the Leviathan of dis was  annoucend that the next dlc would be  a blatant and shameful way of puting the catalyst forshadow in.

I'd rather have Mass Effect 3 make some sense six months later than not make sense at all, but it's still a poor substitute to a well-structured plot in the first place.

This

[Blueprotoss]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

You say that as if someone's provided me with an irefutable case that I'm just too stubborn to accept.

This is based on stubbornness on your part.

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

Surprise! No one has. Especially not you, who's just cited some sh*t about the Geth getting a redesign from an artbook and flung context void random sentences as if I can f*cking read your mind.

Yet you still denying direct and indirect foreshadowing.

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

Now you're just desperate to grasp at something to win the argument with without having to support anything you say.

I'm not desperate at all and its funny that you're flipping the table since you don't want to be wong.

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

I'm not 'avoiding' any foreshadowing. There isn't any to avoid. Make a case or sit down. 

Yet you are avoiding the foreshadowing and you'r far from sitting down.

[George Costanza]

There's no foreshadowing.

But if Bioware are going retcon foreshadowing into it, and it makes the whole thing make sense somwhere down the line, then I'm not going to have an issue with it. I'd be cool with that. Good luck to them.

Their work so far though isn't giving me confidence. Leviathan actually raised more problems than it solved.

[paul165]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Norrax wrote...
plus i knew even befor the Leviathan of dis was  annoucend that the next dlc would be  a blatant and shameful way of puting the catalyst forshadow in.

I'd rather have Mass Effect 3 make some sense six months later than not make sense at all, but it's still a poor substitute to a well-structured plot in the first place.

Although I object strongly having to pay for Bioware to fix their PoS writing I support this statement. Actually on second thoughts both these statements it was blatant and shameful and a poor, late fix is slightly better than no fix at all (even if I think it was a bloody awful attempt at a fix and I resent the hell out of Bioware for charging for it rather than including the lore in the main game).

[Blueprotoss]

George Costanza wrote...

There's no foreshadowing.

But if Bioware are going retcon foreshadowing into it, and it makes the whole thing make sense somwhere down the line, then I'm not going to have an issue with it. I'd be cool with that. Good luck to them.

Their work so far though isn't giving me confidence. Leviathan actually raised more problems than it solved.

I guess you're not an eye guy based on how Bioware does some foreshadowing with faces like two examples are the indoctrinated with Saren and TIM.

[The Night Mammoth]

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

You say that as if someone's provided me with an irefutable case that I'm just too stubborn to accept.

This is based on stubbornness on your part.

You've povided nothing for me to be stubborn against. So no, it's not.

If anything you're being stubborn because you refuse to back anything you say. 

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

Surprise! No one has. Especially not you, who's just cited some sh*t about the Geth getting a redesign from an artbook and flung context void random sentences as if I can f*cking read your mind.

Yet you still denying direct and indirect foreshadowing.

Well done, Columbo. 

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

Now you're just desperate to grasp at something to win the argument with without having to support anything you say.

I'm not desperate at all and its funny that you're flipping the table since you don't want to be wong.

I've been saying this for several pages now. 

Either you're arrogant, or you have nothing. 

No 'table flipping' going on. 

You're not exactly making it difficult for me to actually win. 

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

I'm not 'avoiding' any foreshadowing. There isn't any to avoid. Make a case or sit down. 

Yet you are avoiding the foreshadowing and you'r far from sitting down.

Can't avoid something that's not there. Unless you can prove it is. 

You wont, because you cant, obviously. 

[CronoDragoon]

Others will have misgivings because, well, a game is not a book. ME3 is the end of the trilogy and there will be no sequels. Since the ending has made very little sense to most, it's a bit galling to have to pay for something that potentially makes it better.

Not really. We as fans are not entitled to a proper ending of the series (and I use entitled here not in the silly sense it's been used but in the actual way the word functions). If you go see a movie and it has a bad ending, you can't demand your money back. I was always, from March, a proponent of BW making a paid DLC that completely redid Earth. Unfortunately, because many people felt that a bad ending invalidated their purchase and demanded everything for free, we only got the EC instead.

Different mind-set. Many buy games with the expectation that they're paying for the full product, instead of something that might require them to spend more money to finally get what they thought they had. Again, perspective.

BioWare thought they were giving us the full package. It just so happened we thought the ending to their full package sucked. That's the real reason here; it's not a question of complete or incomplete, but rather that people still think the ending is bad and don't want to pay to make it better. I, on the other hand, am perfectly fine paying to make it better. But the endings do not require Leviathan to comprehend the events of ME3.

In any case, I suppose my main point is that it ultimately whether or not Leviathan is good or whether or not Leviathan completes ME3: it would not have been able to be released with the original game. They were pressed for time and resources as it is, and when I consider the possibility that something else in ME3 might have been cut to make time for it, I find I like the idea of releasing it as DLC more.

It's a thin line, obviously. I might consider Leviathan very important to the integrity of the plot, but I wouldn't think the same of LotSB in regards to ME2. All opinion, and I can understand both perspectives.

At the very least, I appreciate that we can discuss this civilly despite our opposing viewpoints.

It's not the actual events of Leviathan and more the effet it has on potentially making the story better.

Since you've said you are not against DLC in general, would you only want DLC that does not affect the main plot? I for one believe that all ME3 DLC should affect the main plot or it feels fairly small in comparison. I am very excited, for example, at the possibility of future DLC explaining the origins of the Crucible.

I don't think it was done well. Perhaps if the plot acknowledged this fact I might actually like it. Instead it has the opposte effect and makes me hate more. Perhaps that's just a yearning for some personal satisfaction on wanting the ability to point out the irony. 

Yes, I think Shepard pointing this out would have been proper. And I am not saying whether or not it's irony used well or poorly. But that is distinct from saying, "The Catalyst ends up doing the opposite of his intended purpose, that means the writing is bad." No, that's the point of what happened. Its not like the writers didn't realize that a catalyst for peace destroying his creators was ironic. It's not retarded. Done well or not is a separate, interesting discussion to be had.

And for the record, yes the Catalyst should have already been foreshadowed in the game much more than he was, and yes they should have perhaps dealt with how contradictory the Reapers' ultimate origins seem to Sovereign's personality. But I am willing to pay for content that A. Improves the story in some of the above ways and 2. is fun to play.

Edit: I'd also point out that for everyone who was waiting for a price drop on ME3 to buy it, and will play it for the first time with the EC and Leviathan, it will be actual foreshadowing for them. One of my best friends hasn't played it yet because of a game backlog, and I am extremely interested to hear his opinion of ME3's ending post-EC and Leviathan.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 11 septembre 2012 - 03:21 .

[paul165]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Stuff

Just give up Blueprotoss never answers any points properly and will just keep spinning this out long after any sane person would have moved on.

Modifié par paul165, 11 septembre 2012 - 03:16 .

[George Costanza]

Blueprotoss wrote...

George Costanza wrote...

There's no foreshadowing.

But if Bioware are going retcon foreshadowing into it, and it makes the whole thing make sense somwhere down the line, then I'm not going to have an issue with it. I'd be cool with that. Good luck to them.

Their work so far though isn't giving me confidence. Leviathan actually raised more problems than it solved.

I guess you're not an eye guy based on how Bioware does some foreshadowing with faces like two examples are the indoctrinated with Saren and TIM.

Sorry, you're going to have to run that one by me again. What, exactly, are their eyes supposed to be foreshadowing? That people with freaky eyes are ne'er-do-wells?

This doesn't really help the lack of foreshadowing for much of cluster**** that is the plot of the third game.

Modifié par George Costanza, 11 septembre 2012 - 03:18 .

[Blueprotoss]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

You've povided nothing for me to be stubborn against. So no, it's not.

If anything you're being stubborn because you refuse to back anything you say.

Again the stubbornness is from you because you don't want to be wrong.

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

Well done, Columbo.

Insulting people when you want answers is very counter productive.

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

I've been saying this for several pages now. 

Either you're arrogant, or you have nothing. 

No 'table flipping' going on. 

You're not exactly making it difficult for me to actually win.

I'm being far from difficult even when I keep on giving you examples.

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

Can't avoid something that's not there. Unless you can prove it is. 

You wont, because you cant, obviously.

Oh the irony! If you didn't want to avoid this then you won't be flipping the table.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 11 septembre 2012 - 03:31 .

[Blueprotoss]

paul165 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Stuff

Just give up Blueprotoss never answers any points properly and will just keep spinning this out long after any sane person would have moved on.

How is that when I cotinue to give answers even when insults keep coming like from you and him.

[Blueprotoss]

George Costanza wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

George Costanza wrote...

There's no foreshadowing.

But if Bioware are going retcon foreshadowing into it, and it makes the whole thing make sense somwhere down the line, then I'm not going to have an issue with it. I'd be cool with that. Good luck to them.

Their work so far though isn't giving me confidence. Leviathan actually raised more problems than it solved.

I guess you're not an eye guy based on how Bioware does some foreshadowing with faces like two examples are the indoctrinated with Saren and TIM.

Sorry, you're going to have to run that one by me again. What, exactly, are their eyes supposed to be foreshadowing? That people with freaky eyes are ne'er-do-wells?

This doesn't really help the lack of foreshadowing for much of cluster**** that is the plot of the third game.

There's so much foreshadowing in ME3 that it regularly hits you in the face even with the EC and Leviathan being added.

[Dendio1]

Bioware is making the ending work by adding in appropriate foreshadowing via leviathan. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's a you problem.

If leviathan was in the base game, there would be no mass effect 3 ending fiasco

Modifié par Dendio1, 11 septembre 2012 - 03:43 .

[The Night Mammoth]

I assert there is no foreshadowing of ME3's ending in the story.

Blueprotoss asserts there is.

He refuses to make any sort of case for his assertions and apparently other people, who ask him to do this, are in the wrong because they are 'too stubborn' to agree with him despite being provided nothing to actually argue against. 

http://community.us....?v=mpbl-1&px=-1

Yeah, no, there's something fishy going on here.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 11 septembre 2012 - 03:53 .

[CronoDragoon]

Dendio1 wrote...

Bioware is making the ending work by adding in appropriate foreshadowing via leviathan. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's a you problem.

If leviathan was in the base game, there would be no mass effect 3 ending fiasco

If Leviathan and the EC were in the base game, I think you meant. People still would have complained about the ending but you are right, there would have been no Retake movement or 80k to charity.

[Blueprotoss]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I assert there is no foreshadowing of ME3's ending in the story.

Blueprotoss asserts there is.

He refuses to make any sort of case for his assertions and apparently other people, who ask him to do this, are in the wrong because they are 'too stubborn' to agree with him despite being provided nothing to actually argue against. 

Yeah, no, there's something fishy going on here.

Insulting people still won't help you even when you keep on ignoring those examples of foreshadowing.  All I can say now is that you're doing a horrible job at wanting answers.

[Blueprotoss]

Dendio1 wrote...

Bioware is making the ending work by adding in appropriate foreshadowing via leviathan. Sorry if you don't like it, but that's a you problem.

If leviathan was in the base game, there would be no mass effect 3 ending fiasco.

To be fair Leviathan was forseshadowed in every ME game and Harbinger even said that he wasn't a leader.  If there was more direct fooreshadowing then there wold be less rage even when the ME3 ending fiasco was more about ending personalization then anything else.