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[Taboo]

LucasShark wrote...

David7204 wrote...

So tell me. How exactly does Leviathan 'ruin' the Destroy ending?

Tell me: what is going to happen in the destroy ending where the only restraining element on a race of psychic space beings who lust to be worshipped has been removed?

Too bad the Stargazer scene disproves that.

Meanwhile...

[LucasShark]

David7204 wrote...

Gee, maybe DLC should just never add anything to the story or characters. I'm sure that would be a lot of fun.

I wonder if any of you are the same people clamoring for more character DLC or whatnot.

There is a massive difference between adding depth, and filling in what should have been there in the first place.

[TheWerdna]

LucasShark wrote...

David7204 wrote...

So tell me. How exactly does Leviathan 'ruin' the Destroy ending?

Tell me: what is going to happen in the destroy ending where the only restraining element on a race of psychic space beings who lust to be worshipped has been removed?

They can't be worse then the Reapers, and we beat those.

[The Night Mammoth]

MetioricTest wrote...

As much as Levvy gave us plot-points and reveals, he also set up the Catalyst nicely... Which is bizarre because already met him...without set-up

Honestly I thought it made the whole thing worse. 

I mean, the Leviathans dump some of the most important pieces of information we've ever learned on us, and are some of the most important entities in the entire story, and yet you don't do anything about it. All I had to do after I finished the DLC was Cronos Station, before I went to Earth, and yet the comparitively small gap where basicallly no mention of the plot defining tidbits you're told is ever brought up. 

It's a nice attempt, but I thought it failed in this respect. Close but no cigar, as it were. 

[Kileyan]

LucasShark wrote...

David7204 wrote...

So tell me. How exactly does Leviathan 'ruin' the Destroy ending?

Tell me: what is going to happen in the destroy ending where the only restraining element on a race of psychic space beings who lust to be worshipped has been removed?

Mass Effect 4 happens!

We couldn't beat the reapers conventionally so now we will get a trilogy where we can't beat the Leviathans. At the end we will meet yet another race who created the Leviathans. Only this time our choices will matter. The new race will hold out all four of their hands and ask us to guess which one has the credit chip inside. It is all up to us, we have a single choice to save the galaxy.

[LucasShark]

TheWerdna wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

David7204 wrote...

So tell me. How exactly does Leviathan 'ruin' the Destroy ending?

Tell me: what is going to happen in the destroy ending where the only restraining element on a race of psychic space beings who lust to be worshipped has been removed?

They can't be worse then the Reapers, and we beat those.

No we didn't, their leader let us win for building his magic lamp.

[D24O]

Taboo-XX wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

David7204 wrote...

So tell me. How exactly does Leviathan 'ruin' the Destroy ending?

Tell me: what is going to happen in the destroy ending where the only restraining element on a race of psychic space beings who lust to be worshipped has been removed?

Too bad the Stargazer scene disproves that.

Meanwhile...

Wait... why did Miranda kill Shepard and take his clothes?

[MegaSovereign]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

As much as Levvy gave us plot-points and reveals, he also set up the Catalyst nicely... Which is bizarre because already met him...without set-up

Honestly I thought it made the whole thing worse. 

I mean, the Leviathans dump some of the most important pieces of information we've ever learned on us, and are some of the most important entities in the entire story, and yet you don't do anything about it. All I had to do after I finished the DLC was Cronos Station, before I went to Earth, and yet the comparitively small gap where basicallly no mention of the plot defining tidbits you're told is ever brought up. 

It's a nice attempt, but I thought it failed in this respect. Close but no cigar, as it were. 

I hated how Shepard didn't mention anything he learned about the Catalyst to Vendetta on Thessia.

It's better to play the Leviathan DLC just after Thessia, sort of like how it's better to play Arrival just after the Suicide Mission.

[Mcfly616]

Foreshadowing is not needed. The point of the ending was to make the player question themselves and what they believe at the very last moment. foreshadowing the choices would defeat that purpose.

[MegaSovereign]

D24O wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

David7204 wrote...

So tell me. How exactly does Leviathan 'ruin' the Destroy ending?

Tell me: what is going to happen in the destroy ending where the only restraining element on a race of psychic space beings who lust to be worshipped has been removed?

Too bad the Stargazer scene disproves that.

Meanwhile...

Wait... why did Miranda kill Shepard and take his clothes?

Because she's a man trapped in a woman's body.

[David7204]

Well, Shepard had no reason to believe the 'intelligence' had anything to do with the Catalyst or the Crucible or anything besides the Leviathans at that point.

[TheWerdna]

LucasShark wrote...

TheWerdna wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

David7204 wrote...

So tell me. How exactly does Leviathan 'ruin' the Destroy ending?

Tell me: what is going to happen in the destroy ending where the only restraining element on a race of psychic space beings who lust to be worshipped has been removed?

They can't be worse then the Reapers, and we beat those.

No we didn't, their leader let us win for building his magic lamp.

Yes, and I am sure we will convienently get another space magic lamp to kill the Leviathans.

[RiouHotaru]

MetioricTest wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Leviathan DLC was planned before the release of the game. It was pushed back because of the ending controversy.

Its existence isn't tied to forum's b*tching.

This isn't much of a defense.

Sure it excuses the DLC. But it doesn't explain why the Catalyst is badly foreshadowed, pretty much to the extent that it isn't foreshadowed...

Uhhh, while the Catalyst specifically wasn't foreshadowed, there was ALWAYS a lingering foreshadow of the Reapers being controlled by someone/something else.  The fact they were giant ROBOTS should have been a dead giveaway to this.

- Machines have to be made by someone, implying that someone came up with the idea/concept/etc of "Reapers", implying a creator (The Catalyst)

- They're programmed with a very specific directive, which directly implies that someone/something had to program that directive into them.  Machines cannot spontaneously program themselves from nothing.

- The Cycle they were following had been repeated countless times, implying an underlying plan or agenda, AGAIN, implying the existence of a creator and/or a controller.

That the controller at the end was revealed to be an AI was SUPPOSED to be the twist.  We knew (or should have known) that there was someone's hand behind the Reapers, that they were controlled by another machine was a twist, yes.  But not a bad one.

[MegaSovereign]

David7204 wrote...

Well, Shepard had no reason to believe the 'intelligence' had anything to do with the Catalyst or the Crucible or anything besides the Leviathans at that point.

When Vendetta mentions that the Reapers are not the cause of the "pattern," Shepard and company look surprised despite knowing that the Reapers were created by an intelligence.

[LucasShark]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Foreshadowing is not needed. The point of the ending was to make the player question themselves and what they believe at the very last moment. foreshadowing the choices would defeat that purpose.

... that is some serious bullcrap right there.

[The Night Mammoth]

RiouHotaru wrote...

MetioricTest wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The Leviathan DLC was planned before the release of the game. It was pushed back because of the ending controversy.

Its existence isn't tied to forum's b*tching.

This isn't much of a defense.

Sure it excuses the DLC. But it doesn't explain why the Catalyst is badly foreshadowed, pretty much to the extent that it isn't foreshadowed...

Uhhh, while the Catalyst specifically wasn't foreshadowed, there was ALWAYS a lingering foreshadow of the Reapers being controlled by someone/something else.  The fact they were giant ROBOTS should have been a dead giveaway to this.

- Machines have to be made by someone, implying that someone came up with the idea/concept/etc of "Reapers", implying a creator (The Catalyst)

- They're programmed with a very specific directive, which directly implies that someone/something had to program that directive into them.  Machines cannot spontaneously program themselves from nothing.

- The Cycle they were following had been repeated countless times, implying an underlying plan or agenda, AGAIN, implying the existence of a creator and/or a controller.

That the controller at the end was revealed to be an AI was SUPPOSED to be the twist.  We knew (or should have known) that there was someone's hand behind the Reapers, that they were controlled by another machine was a twist, yes.  But not a bad one.

There's no way in hell I would have ever come to that conclusion or anything like it. 

I always thought the Reapers turned themeselves into synthetics. Each one was an individual, and they were all just massive, souless, arogant ****s. 

I certainly never thought of them as generic robots with some mysterious controller, mostly because they were never made out to be anything like the former, and the latter was never implied anywhere until Thessia. 

[The Night Mammoth]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Foreshadowing is not needed. The point of the ending was to make the player question themselves and what they believe at the very last moment. foreshadowing the choices would defeat that purpose.

I questioned everything about Mass Effect and didn't come to some inspiring conclusions. 

[RiouHotaru]

That you missed the foreshadowing isn't Bioware's fault then. The clues were all there. This is like saying that "organics vs. synthetics" wasn't a theme of the franchise when it was very CLEARLY a present theme.

[LucasShark]

RiouHotaru wrote...

That you missed the foreshadowing isn't Bioware's fault then. The clues were all there. This is like saying that "organics vs. synthetics" wasn't a theme of the franchise when it was very CLEARLY a present theme.

A) there wasn't any to miss
it was never the core conflict, and never will be.

[The Night Mammoth]

RiouHotaru wrote...

That you missed the foreshadowing isn't Bioware's fault then. The clues were all there.

I'd like a list please, because you could very easily come to several other conclusions that would have more supporting evidence. 

This is like saying that "organics vs. synthetics" wasn't a theme of the franchise when it was very CLEARLY a present theme.

It was. 

The defining conflict of the nature the Catalyst says it is?

Ha, ha ha, no. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 09 septembre 2012 - 02:28 .

[RiouHotaru]

LucasShark wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

That you missed the foreshadowing isn't Bioware's fault then. The clues were all there. This is like saying that "organics vs. synthetics" wasn't a theme of the franchise when it was very CLEARLY a present theme.

A) there wasn't any to miss
it was never the core conflict, and never will be.

I pointed out the foreshadowing, which is ALL there if you look at it and use some common sense.  Bioware isn't obligated to and shouldn't HAVE to point out every little thing.

And while it wasn't the core conflict, it WAS a contributory theme of the game.

[D24O]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I pointed out the foreshadowing, which is ALL there if you look at it and use some common sense.  Bioware isn't obligated to and shouldn't HAVE to point out every little thing.

And while it wasn't the core conflict, it WAS a contributory theme of the game.

IMO saying Versus is too simple. It wasn't that straightforward as the games went on. O&S relations is a better term IMO.

[MegaSovereign]

Organic vs Synthetics is a very real thing.

My battle is ongoing with Microsoft Windows PC and its lack of cooperation.

[The Night Mammoth]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I pointed out the foreshadowing, which is ALL there if you look at it and use some common sense.  Bioware isn't obligated to and shouldn't HAVE to point out every little thing.

You pointed out things you managed to deduct from largely unrelated parts of the plot, that weren't very convincing, had little in the way of actual in-game evidence, and were more conrete that what I came up with, less so, actually. 

Saying that because they're machines, they have to have a controller, is not foreshadowing. 

And while it wasn't the core conflict, it WAS a contributory theme of the game.

Although not in the same form presented by the Catalyst.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 09 septembre 2012 - 02:33 .

[D24O]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Organic vs Synthetics is a very real thing.

My battle is ongoing with Microsoft Windows PC and its lack of cooperation.

Hit it. That usually works. Sometimes.