327 réponses à ce sujet

[The Night Mammoth]

Blueprotoss wrote...

It was as clear as TIM being a villian. 

What specifically?

The Reaper's motives?

The Catalyst and its choices?

Make a case. 

[Epique Phael767]

Blueprotoss wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Except that is A) a minor detail in ME1, and never even bloody confirmed, in-fact: utterly denounced by Sovreign.

The Geth, general ban on AI creation form the Council before the Morning War, and the rumor of Leviathan is a good start in ME1.  The Collectors appearing, the Geth are still bad, and the Harbinger dialogue continues is shown in ME2.  The most foreshadowing is shown in ME3 and its hard to them.

2 words: Hindsight bias. No one even detected these things untill it was shoved down our throats at the last second. If it is not the most present theme it is not the main theme.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

MetioricTest wrote...

No it didn't. That's the problem. All the games had a running main theme and then the ending had a completely seperate minor theme. "Stop the Reapers" is replaced with "Solve the inevitable conflict between Synthetics and Organics that we will explain to you right now and you have to accept."

Agreed. For all the hate that Dragon Age 2 gets, there is no ambiguity regarding what the central conflict occupies and it's seen from start to finish. Mages vs. Templars is the primary topic under scrutiny and it's explored through the setting, main plot, and companions, start to finish amidst other conflicts (Ex: Qunari).

That's where the Reaper motivation drops the ball. ME1 tells us that synthetics are a problem. This is acceptable. ME2 offers us the contrast via Legion, EDI, and the Geth. This is also acceptable, it's "the switch". ME3 further drives home the point with EDI's growing care for the Normandy and the presentation of the Geth/Quarian conflict, which is not posed as being a dilemma of synthetics vs. organics. The ME3 ending essentially reopens a plot point which was assumed to be concluded.

This is why Javik is such an anomaly, because he's the only element which reinserts the synthetic-organic conflict back into the story. Tone-wise, the ending feels off because we're making heavy decisions under the possibility of synthetic-organic conflict when we haven't dealt with significant synthetic conflict since ME1. It would be like DA2 instead ending with a Qunari invasion when we thought the plot point was settled with Act 2.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 09 septembre 2012 - 04:00 .

[Blueprotoss]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What specifically?

the Geth

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

The Reaper's motives?

the harvest cycle

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

The Catalyst and its choices?

self-aware AI

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

Make a case.

Its pretty easy.

[Blueprotoss]

Epique Phael767 wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Except that is A) a minor detail in ME1, and never even bloody confirmed, in-fact: utterly denounced by Sovreign.

The Geth, general ban on AI creation form the Council before the Morning War, and the rumor of Leviathan is a good start in ME1.  The Collectors appearing, the Geth are still bad, and the Harbinger dialogue continues is shown in ME2.  The most foreshadowing is shown in ME3 and its hard to them.

2 words: Hindsight bias. No one even detected these things untill it was shoved down our throats at the last second. If it is not the most present theme it is not the main theme.

That isn't based on hindsight even when the Geth were purposely changed inot robots to create a Created vs Creator conflict.  Also its not that hard to spot a Created vs Creator conflict as one of the main themes even when the Reapers scream out Lovecraft.

[LucasShark]

Blueprotoss wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Except that is A) a minor detail in ME1, and never even bloody confirmed, in-fact: utterly denounced by Sovreign.

The Geth, general ban on AI creation form the Council before the Morning War, and the rumor of Leviathan is a good start in ME1.  The Collectors appearing, the Geth are still bad, and the Harbinger dialogue continues is shown in ME2.  The most foreshadowing is shown in ME3 and its hard to them.

... You're an idiot.

[The Night Mammoth]

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

What specifically?

the Geth

The Geth were foreshadowed? 

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

The Reaper's motives?

the harvest cycle

How does that give me any information about their motives? 

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

The Catalyst and its choices?

self-aware AI

What about them? 

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

Make a case.

Its pretty easy.

There wasn't exactly that much information there. I mean, you basically provided nothing in the way of a supporting argument. 

Try again.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 09 septembre 2012 - 04:10 .

[LucasShark]

magnetite wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Is Bioware really going to try and retroactively add foreshadowing for the insanity of the ending?

This will NOT work, it is the writing equivillent of cheating honestly.  Explanations and foreshadowing are what should have been in here in the first place!  This is like releasing an expansion pack to a book which didn't feature any foreshadowing or explanation of events.

I say this because of both the EC and the Leviathan DLCs, the first which made a scitzophrenic ending slightly less awful, and the second which retroactively tried to explain the mess of circular logic the Catalyst spouted.

I don't want this, focussing on the worst aspect of this story will mire everything, all it will do is produce more garbage, see the introduction of psychic space demi-gods which ruin the destroy ending.

Since Mass Effect 3 is the final game for this "story arc", any DLC released in the future will basically wrap up Shepard's story. There is no post game content so to speak since everything needs to be done before you go to Earth. That sounds like what they're doing.

uh so expand the story in other ways?  Like make this feel like a war rather than "the reapers checklist off all major set-pieces for your enjoyment".

Whatever they do, make DLC actually matter to the ending or don't attach it at all, as trying to sort something from this tangled mess will just tie an anchor to any piece of DLC.

Modifié par LucasShark, 09 septembre 2012 - 04:13 .

[Epique Phael767]

magnetite wrote...

It actually does feel like a war. Did you guys not hear things such as "we just lost a couple million people because of the Reapers".

Thing about this game is they take war and sacrifice very seriously, but I don't think anyone actually realizes that. People are still too emotional over the ending, even six months since release.

Depending on the ending, it's the living I pity.

[LucasShark]

magnetite wrote...

It actually does feel like a war. Did you guys not hear things such as "we just lost a couple million people because of the Reapers".

Thing about this game is they take war and sacrifice very seriously, but I don't think anyone actually realizes that. People are still too emotional over the ending, even six months since release.

They really don't.  What they should have done is have their five hub worlds and then have them taken away over the course of the story.  As it stands it feels more like the Reapers follow Shepard arround, toasting the planet just before we get there.  Case in point Earth: I don't feel like anything at all was lost as I never got any sense of what it was beforehand.  My Shepard isn't even from Earth.

[MetioricTest]

magnetite wrote...

It actually does feel like a war. Did you guys not hear things such as "we just lost a couple million people because of the Reapers".

Thing about this game is they take war and sacrifice very seriously, but I don't think anyone actually realizes that. People are still too emotional over the ending, even six months since release.

When the ending of a story-heavy triology you invested hundreds of hours/dollars in sucks... It's hard to pretend to be surprised that fans are still unhappy.

Kinda hard to take the in-plot sacrfices seriously when the ultimate conclusion they sacrifced themselves for is so bad you want to pretend it never happened.

[Eterna]

MegaSovereign wrote...



It takes more than control capabilities to become a galactic threat. You need Reaper armor and lasers.

They didn't really seem to have a problem before.

[MetioricTest]

magnetite wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

They really don't.  What they should have done is have their five hub worlds and then have them taken away over the course of the story.  As it stands it feels more like the Reapers follow Shepard arround, toasting the planet just before we get there.  Case in point Earth: I don't feel like anything at all was lost as I never got any sense of what it was beforehand.  My Shepard isn't even from Earth.

If you want to talk about choices having impact, Udina was going to have an all human council in ME1, but we never saw one, so you could say it didn't matter.

To be honest I;m glad.

An all human council SOUNDS impressive but in reality it would make no sense...

Just imagine Councilor Smith having to sit at 3 week long trade negotiation/boarder dispute between the Volus, Elcor and Turians.

By hour 9 of meeting 17 he'd be blowing his own kneecaps off and begging someone who actually cares/has any knowledge of the situation to take over.

[Blueprotoss]

LucasShark wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

Except that is A) a minor detail in ME1, and never even bloody confirmed, in-fact: utterly denounced by Sovreign.

The Geth, general ban on AI creation form the Council before the Morning War, and the rumor of Leviathan is a good start in ME1.  The Collectors appearing, the Geth are still bad, and the Harbinger dialogue continues is shown in ME2.  The most foreshadowing is shown in ME3 and its hard to them.

... You're an idiot.

Yet the Geth aren't bad in ME3 unless if you destroyed the Heretics  and/or killed off Legion in ME2.

LucasShark wrote...

They really don't.  What they should have done is have their five hub worlds and then have them taken away over the course of the story.  As it stands it feels more like the Reapers follow Shepard arround, toasting the planet just before we get there.  Case in point Earth: I don't feel like anything at all was lost as I never got any sense of what it was beforehand.  My Shepard isn't even from Earth.

Opinion is opinion but do you realy know if that would really make you happy. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 09 septembre 2012 - 04:37 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

magnetite wrote...

Can't please everyone though, they've said that before. Anyways, I'd invite the fans to make a game as complex as Mass Effect 3. It's not as easy as it looks. Not to mention create an ending catered to every single person who plays this game. Let's see, 3 million copies sold, and roughly 3 million individual endings.

While true, it also cannot be ignored that Bioware dug their own grave on this point. Making every squad member in ME2 killable did not  help their cause at all, while reducing many likable characters to cameos. Likewise with the Collector Base. Bioware's mistake was in focusing on breadth of choice rather than depth of choice, which isn't a problem for small scale decisions (Ex: killing Fist), but sucks when you want a galaxy-wide impact (the Rachni). Bioware was too ambitious with the concept and bit off more than they could chew. As it stands, Alpha Protocol has done choices and consequences better than any Bioware game to date.

[Blueprotoss]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

The Geth were foreshadowed?

Quarians being the Creator and the Geth being the Created.

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

How does that give me any information about their motives?

Saren

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

What about them?

Council ban on AI creation and EDI.

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

There wasn't exactly that much information there. I mean, you basically provided nothing in the way of a supporting argument. 

Try again.

Yet its still easy and I'm only using a small amount of information.

[MetioricTest]

Can't please everyone though, they've said that before. Anyways, I'd invite the fans to make a game as complex as Mass Effect 3. It's not as easy as it looks. Not to mention create an ending catered to every single person who plays this game. Let's see, 3 million copies sold, and roughly 3 million individual endings. I think the guy who was a level designer said there was 25,000 different plot states (choices). Not to mention some wanted a finale for all the war assets you collected.

You can see where I'm going with this. It sounds like a logistics nightmare.

This is flimsy logic. Almost the entire fanbase widely agrees that all three games are on the whole good and the ending is widely disliked, even by those who love the game. Many hate the ending BECAUSE it's such a stark contrast from the quality of the game.

The notion that the ending isn't bad, it just simply "is impossible to cater to everyone" is absurd. Especially when you factor in how much of a non ending the original ending was. 3 choice pulled out of no where that don't make complete sense driven from a terrible character that lead to the same scene in 3 colors...


Come on this has nothing to do with "catering to everyone" it was just bad and rushed.

[Blueprotoss]

MetioricTest wrote...

magnetite wrote...

It actually does feel like a war. Did you guys not hear things such as "we just lost a couple million people because of the Reapers".

Thing about this game is they take war and sacrifice very seriously, but I don't think anyone actually realizes that. People are still too emotional over the ending, even six months since release.

When the ending of a story-heavy triology you invested hundreds of hours/dollars in sucks... It's hard to pretend to be surprised that fans are still unhappy.

Kinda hard to take the in-plot sacrfices seriously when the ultimate conclusion they sacrifced themselves for is so bad you want to pretend it never happened.

Yet the oney and hour investment doesn't matter especially when RPGs is the topic.

[The Night Mammoth]

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

The Geth were foreshadowed?

Quarians being the Creator and the Geth being the Created.

Yes, and?

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

How does that give me any information about their motives?

Saren

How does that give me any information about their motives?

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

What about them?

Council ban on AI creation and EDI.

What about them?

The Night Mammoth wrote... 

There wasn't exactly that much information there. I mean, you basically provided nothing in the way of a supporting argument. 

Try again.

Yet its still easy and I'm only using a small amount of information.

You're not doing anything 'easily', you're just posting a heap of ambiguous sh*t that makes no sense because it has no context or any sort of reasoning. 

You have no argument. 

[Blueprotoss]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

magnetite wrote...

Can't please everyone though, they've said that before. Anyways, I'd invite the fans to make a game as complex as Mass Effect 3. It's not as easy as it looks. Not to mention create an ending catered to every single person who plays this game. Let's see, 3 million copies sold, and roughly 3 million individual endings.

While true, it also cannot be ignored that Bioware dug their own grave on this point. Making every squad member in ME2 killable did not  help their cause at all, while reducing many likable characters to cameos. Likewise with the Collector Base. Bioware's mistake was in focusing on breadth of choice rather than depth of choice, which isn't a problem for small scale decisions (Ex: killing Fist), but sucks when you want a galaxy-wide impact (the Rachni). Bioware was too ambitious with the concept and bit off more than they could chew. As it stands, Alpha Protocol has done choices and consequences better than any Bioware game to date.

Alpha Protocol is a good game while its still one game and the real grave was based on expectations.

[Blueprotoss]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

You're not doing anything 'easily', you're just posting a heap of ambiguous sh*t that makes no sense because it has no context or any sort of reasoning. 

You have no argument. 

Putting up blinders won't help you and a simple read whole the ME1 artbook or the web docs on ME1 can easily prove you wrong.  Denial will only get you so far.

[Bill Casey]

"Created will always rebel" is racist...