360 réponses à ce sujet

[eroeru]

Yeah, the "intelligent" part was badly explained, I did an edit.

I simply wanted to state that there are in fact two criteria for "relevant" criticism, as far as I'm able to comprehend right now.

One is the ability to understand the franchise, the other the ability to understand what is (good) criticism, and how does it work.

I'm a bit bothersome at writing sometimes, hence I might come off as more "enraged" and sometimes more foolish than in actuality.

Modifié par eroeru, 14 septembre 2012 - 10:35 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Did people really get as upset about those complaints as they've gotten now? I may be mistaken, but I think those complaints could mostly come from a vastly different audience than the ones who really loved your first game and are also intelligent enough to think of well-explained criticisms - i.e. the people who's opinion should actually matter more.

It's hard to really characterize the group of people that "really loved the first game." Obviously you're in that camp, but that doesn't preclude someone that maybe became a BioWare fan with Mass Effect from also really loving Dragon Age. I don't think that a prerequisite for having Dragon Age be your favourite game is to have a history of playing BioWare's similar style games like Baldur's Gate or maybe even KOTOR.

*Raises hand.

I came to the forums when ME2 was released, playing ME1-ME2 in sequence, then jumped to DAO after what other people said. Only gone forward with Bioware games: Jade Empire was an unfinished exception, but I'm a bit of a graphics freak.

I think it's also important to note that many of our fans have only played BioWare games on the console, and I could see there being a stronger affinity to how the wheel plays out from a usability perspective than maybe a PC gamer (just speculation on my part).

Not quite 'only', but I did enjoy the more organized ME1 dialogue wheel on Console than I did the list of DAO.

[eroeru]

One more thing - I'd not have a problem if we could mesh up the positions of the dialogue-choices on the wheel and disable the indicators (the icons in the middle and explanations such as "investigate"). Though the meshing is more than problematic with having subcategories such as "investigate".


It is silly, but I'd genuinely enjoy the wheel if it had loads of subcategories, and questionmarks on each as an indicator (if any). x)


Or just that the wheel would be made into 10 differing parts instead of 6, with the possibility of hiding the indicators.

Modifié par eroeru, 14 septembre 2012 - 10:38 .

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

It reminds me of a stuck topic in ME2 forums after the releasing of ME2 about what do you want in ME3. ... Months later there was nothing combined as professionals wanted in ME3 and it was rushed, the story showed it.

Ah yes the Romance needs! It is the only thing that will be put...

[ianvillan]

eroeru wrote...



One more thing - I'd not have a problem if we could mesh up the positions of the dialogue-choices on the wheel and disable the indicators (the icons in the middle and explanations such as "investigate"). Though the meshing is more than problematic with having subcategories such as "investigate".


It is silly, but I'd genuinely enjoy the wheel if it had loads of subcategories, and questionmarks on each as an indicator (if any). x)


Or just that the wheel would be made into 10 differing parts instead of 6, with the possibility of hiding the indicators.

Well crusty bot did put forward an idea of a dialogue compass which is similar to your ideas, but no matter what some fans might say or what feedback they get the wheel is here to stay, including all the problems that come with it be that lack of choices and paraphrasing and the chances of the dialogue wheel changing to add more features or to fit the setting is slim.

[eroeru]

Why slim? Because they want to hold on to their patent in its exactness?

[Rylor Tormtor]

ianvillan wrote...

eroeru wrote...



One more thing - I'd not have a problem if we could mesh up the positions of the dialogue-choices on the wheel and disable the indicators (the icons in the middle and explanations such as "investigate"). Though the meshing is more than problematic with having subcategories such as "investigate".


It is silly, but I'd genuinely enjoy the wheel if it had loads of subcategories, and questionmarks on each as an indicator (if any). x)


Or just that the wheel would be made into 10 differing parts instead of 6, with the possibility of hiding the indicators.

Well crusty bot did put forward an idea of a dialogue compass which is similar to your ideas, but no matter what some fans might say or what feedback they get the wheel is here to stay, including all the problems that come with it be that lack of choices and paraphrasing and the chances of the dialogue wheel changing to add more features or to fit the setting is slim.

See, there are some fans, like myself, that genuinely think the long form written out reposnes are better. I want to know what I am going to say, not guess. It has been argued over and over again. I think you are right, Bioware will not change it. Partly I think this is an issue of cross platforming, as I assume the wheel is a better interface design for consoles than the PC, but then this just falls into the file labeled "another reason why cross platforming sucks". 

Anyways, you are right. Bioware won't change this. This is part of their core design philosophy or whatever. I am sure that we are going to see more of the same action-rpg for DA3. Again, I hope I am wrong. 

[eroeru]

Aah, yeah, that. I already took the option to see full lines as granted. I'm probably a bit too naive on that front.

[Sylvius the Mad]

StElmo wrote...


The aesthetic, however, is completely awesome. And while I like the gritty idea you just discussed in terms of DA:O - DA:O does not really show this. I have no problem with them making the DA2 art style a bit more dirty,(adding mud decals, richer blacks etc.) but the aesthetic itself is stunning and should be kept over the very generic fantasy style I have seen in 100's of other RPG';s/

I completely disagree.  The generic-ness of DAO's art was a strength of the game.  Generic art grants the game a less fantastic mood overall, and that's what you want if you're going for dark and gritty.

And Dan Tudge used the phrase "dark and gritty" just about every time he spoke publicly during DAO's development.

[ianvillan]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

StElmo wrote...


The aesthetic, however, is completely awesome. And while I like the gritty idea you just discussed in terms of DA:O - DA:O does not really show this. I have no problem with them making the DA2 art style a bit more dirty,(adding mud decals, richer blacks etc.) but the aesthetic itself is stunning and should be kept over the very generic fantasy style I have seen in 100's of other RPG';s/

I completely disagree.  The generic-ness of DAO's art was a strength of the game.  Generic art grants the game a less fantastic mood overall, and that's what you want if you're going for dark and gritty.

And Dan Tudge used the phrase "dark and gritty" just about every time he spoke publicly during DAO's development.

They also said that they were inspired by George R R Martins song of ice and fire books when they were creating Origins, and I think that the art style they went with suited it.

Now try and put DA2s art style (hot rod samurai) to the dark and gritty of a song of ice and fire, and see if they go together.

[SomniariKess1124]

One thing i don't understand is why Templars are Viewed as evil in every game. Templars were basically just a Church boy with a sword. Research pays off in games, and i think the Templars need to just take after who they originally were in history.

http://en.wikipedia....Knights_Templar

I honestly think what DA3 needs, is research. Take after history. Kirkwall didn't look like it really had any historical origin, and that's the problem. you need an origin. something to take designs after. DAO had Origin. It looked alot like it had English origin. What i think, is that Bioware simply got cocky. they saw how well DAO did, and got overconfident.

[Wrathion]

SomniariKess1124 wrote...

One thing i don't understand is why Templars are Viewed as evil in every game. Templars were basically just a Church boy with a sword. Research pays off in games, and i think the Templars need to just take after who they originally were in history.

http://en.wikipedia....Knights_Templar

I honestly think what DA3 needs, is research. Take after history. Kirkwall didn't look like it really had any historical origin, and that's the problem. you need an origin. something to take designs after. DAO had Origin. It looked alot like it had English origin. What i think, is that Bioware simply got cocky. they saw how well DAO did, and got overconfident.

It's a fantasy game...

Why play fantasy if you just want historical?
I would suggest a book.

Modifié par Alexandrine Delassixe, 14 septembre 2012 - 09:34 .

[Allan Schumacher]

When most people think of organizations like the Knights Templar, they think of things like this.

The devout crusader that possessed high martial skill with devout religious fervour.

[Wulfram]

When I think of the Knights Templar I think of dumb conspiracy theories. And them getting filthy rich and then getting dissolved because the King of France wanted their stuff.

Hmm, I wonder if Celene might fancy nicking the Templars stuff?

[Allan Schumacher]

Wulfram wrote...

When I think of the Knights Templar I think of dumb conspiracy theories. And them getting filthy rich and then getting dissolved because the King of France wanted their stuff.

Hmm, I wonder if Celene might fancy nicking the Templars stuff?

I can think of that too... because of Deus Ex... lol.

Though I played enough Medieval: Total War to know how amazeballs the Knights Templar were that I loved using them hehehe.

[SomniariKess1124]

Idk. every Rpg that has templars in it, they all end up being evil. i don't know why they can't just be shown how they were.

And as for the "Fantasy game" comment...

I know its a game. that's my point. think of Assassin's creed. they had some historical themes. I'm just saying, that history isn't a bad idea for making games.

[Allan Schumacher]

Isn't Assassin's Creed still literally set on Earth though? (In Italy I thought)

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Actually, the first is set in the Middle East during the Crusades, the second in Italy during the Renaiisance and the third (as of yet unreleased) is going to be set in America, circa the American Revolution. All times in history when the Templar theories have the most activity.

For what its worth.

[SomniariKess1124]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Isn't Assassin's Creed still literally set on Earth though? (In Italy I thought)

Yes, but before him was Altair (I think i spelled his name right) and Altair was set on saving some kind of mythical object. but more importantly, he dealt in some historical moments (some of those assassinations did happen, but they were all marked as 'we don't know who killed them'). And, well, history came to bite his decendants. i just think that DA kind of needs to go along with some of it's lore, since i didn't seem to see much lore being mentioned at all.

[Mulsanne Blue]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Did people really get as upset about those complaints as they've gotten now? I may be mistaken, but I think those complaints could mostly come from a vastly different audience than the ones who really loved your first game and are also intelligent enough to think of well-explained criticisms - i.e. the people who's opinion should actually matter more.

It's hard to really characterize the group of people that "really loved the first game." Obviously you're in that camp, but that doesn't preclude someone that maybe became a BioWare fan with Mass Effect from also really loving Dragon Age. I don't think that a prerequisite for having Dragon Age be your favourite game is to have a history of playing BioWare's similar style games like Baldur's Gate or maybe even KOTOR.

I think it's also important to note that many of our fans have only played BioWare games on the console, and I could see there being a stronger affinity to how the wheel plays out from a usability perspective than maybe a PC gamer (just speculation on my part).


Not that I think you were doing this, but make sure you're not categorizing someone that felt DAO should have had a voiced PC and the dialogue wheel isn't someone that loves DAO and is intelligent enough to think of well explained criticisms.

My first Bioware game was DAO on a consle and I LOVED it. It was unlike any RPG I had ever played (but by no means do I consider myself an RPG expert - heck, I feel like a total noob when I hear some people talk about all the things they want to see in DA3. It makes me think, "Holy crap, I never even thought of that...") I liked DAO so much I bought it for PC. I have multiple playthroughs on both platforms, and I still play both. It was Dragon Age that steered me toward Mass Effect. At the time, I was much more into fantasy than sci-fi.

Later, I was so excited for DA2 and couldn't wait for it to come out. It wasn't quite what I expected, but I still enjoyed it very much. I initially bought it for the console and then for the PC even though it was much different and some of the changes took some getting used to. There were defintiely things that I did not enjoy, such as the lack of customization and other things that I won't get into because they have been hashed to death in the forums. But I still play it and enjoy it. Am I going to buy DA3? You bet, without a doubt. Probably pre-order too because I love the Dragon Age universe that much. Maybe I am naive, but I have faith that the devs ARE listening to people's concerns, they will address them, and improve the areas of concern. And while I don't get to spend a whole lot of time on the BSN, I will continue to follow posts and speak up when I feel the need. Especially when I can interact with people that aren't being hostile, because truth be told, that is the only reason I stay away from posting in most threads...

I guess in a long-winded way I am trying to say that I fit into both groups but feel that I am able to adequately and intelligently express any concerns. I may not have done so in the past, but due to this thread I may do so in the fututre. I also feel it is VERY important to give them support and positive feedback

[Amirit]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I think it's also important to note that many of our fans have only played BioWare games on the console, and I could see there being a stronger affinity to how the wheel plays out from a usability perspective than maybe a PC gamer (just speculation on my part).
.

This is an excellent point! Now, is there any statistic to look at? I mean, you rightfully criticize those who tries to operate by economic data they have no idea about. But is there a group of statisticians in BW who collects the data about amount of console users vs PC, or preference in companions, order of achievements collection and so on. A lot of it is right here, on this very site. And something like this was done for SWtoR. What about DA?

[twincast]

SomniariKess1124 wrote...

Idk. every Rpg that has templars in it, they all end up being evil. i don't know why they can't just be shown how they were.

Bankers? 'Cause that's not considered evil at all.

[Aimi]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I can think of that too... because of Deus Ex... lol.

Though I played enough Medieval: Total War to know how amazeballs the Knights Templar were that I loved using them hehehe.

Eh. The Templar order was, militarily, one of the less successful of the knightly crusading orders.

Their history in Palestine was undistinguished, and unlike the Knights Hospitaller/Knights of St. John or the German Order/Teutonic Knights, they did not have much of a career outside of the Holy Land to point to. (The Hospitallers notably continued their survival as a state into the eighteenth century until Napoleon extinguished their rule over Malta, were a key element in the incessant Habsburg/Italian/Ottoman naval wars in the Mediterranean, and participated as the defenders in some of the most celebrated sieges of all time. The German Order, of course, built a large and successful state on the Baltic coast that persisted, in some form or other, into the sixteenth century.) Their impact on the history of banking is also consistently overrated, mostly by the Holy Grail types and Dan Brownesque conspiracy theorists. And there is really little else to recommend them.

Be all that as it may, though, the word "templar" has passed into the English lexicon as being associated with diehard religious warriors, and it's quite reasonable to use it in the sense BioWare did.

[eggs on leggs]

I’m not very good trying express myself in such a way people can understand me but I will give it a go and please don’t shout too loud at me... I have an awful headache!

Firstly, I would really hate to be part of the team working on DA3 (or any new game) because personally if I’ve worked hard to produce something that I’m proud of only to have it shot to pieces would be heartbreaking!

It must be extremely difficult trying to produce a game which will satisfy the vast majority of people. I personally loved both Origins and DA2, yes there were elements of each game which niggled me but Bioware DIDN’T make the game purely for ME and it WON’T put me off buying DA3 when it comes out.

I’m not a hardcore gamer, heck I’ll be 40 years old next month but despite the bits which niggled me in both games I’ve played each well over 30 times. My hubby is almost 47 years old and he loved Origins – he hasn’t as yet been able to play DA2 because most of the time I’m on it.

I’ll attempt to offer some CONSTRUCTIVE criticism on the game parts that niggled me and also what I would personally like to see in DA3 at a later date because I'm off to play DA2 now!

[Allan Schumacher]

Firstly, I would really hate to be part of the team working on DA3 (or any new game) because personally if I’ve worked hard to produce something that I’m proud of only to have it shot to pieces would be heartbreaking!

For myself, it entirely depends on how the feedback comes in. I don't expect every single person to love a game that I helped create, but when I see a well reasoned explanation for why a gamer is disappointed, I will make note.

If I see someone state that they feel my team is a bunch of yokels or (my biggest pet peeve) just outright lazy, then it can be harder to remain civil (an issue going back to my childhood... hated being called lazy).


That said, it DOES come with the territory. I really struggled with it on DAO, but I have gotten better and part of why I am engaging with the boards is to have a stronger connection so that (hopefully) I am better able to receive and deal with criticism without getting overly defensive.