360 réponses à ce sujet

[Emzamination]

David Gaider wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
There is a saying of action speaks louder than words, and to me the way DA2 sold less than DAO says that Bioware went in the wrong direction in trying to appeal to the masses.

Personally, I wish fans would stay away from trying to bring economics into their arguments. Because most of you suck at it, and muddy your own arguments by doing so.

You want to talk economics? Then talk about profit. Talk about how other games are selling, instead of ignoring them like they don't exist. If you don't, then you make it plainly obvious you're only paying attention to the part of the data that supports your own agenda, the very thing you're accusing the industry of doing. Or that you're treating this argument as valid only when it appears to support your stance-- because I'm certain nobody who talks about these figures also brings up games they think were high-quality but didn't sell or games they think were low-quality but sold gangbusters, and how there can be a lot of reasons why each of these things occur.

Talk instead about why you like a game and would like to see more games like it. That, at least, is a subject on which a fan can speak with authority.

THANK YOU DAVID! I've been preaching this for the longest.I'm so tired of hearing Ea/bioware business practices being discussed on these forums by fans who don't truly know what they're talking about.We should all stick to talking about the game and leave the marketing and sales to the company.

[Malsumis]

The problem is bioware thinking a DA game can ever sell an amount close to COD. And then adjusting their vision to try and reach that number.

When you buy a Blizzard game you know what you are getting.

When you buy a Bethsoft game you know what you are getting.

When you buy a Bioware game..... You just don't know.

That's why those two companies will always sell more than Bioware, they keep their fans and get new ones, bio splits it's fan base with every new game, gaining new fans but losing old ones.

[Huntress]

David Gaider wrote...

Thus, inevitably, we will try to listen to as many  different fans as we can-- and those fans (primarily the loudest) will struggle to ensure they're the only ones we listen to. We will also try to keep to our own vision of what we want Dragon Age to become... and that will include elements from both DAO and DA2, as well as some from neither.

I am one of the players who liked both games,  saw the good and the bad from both games and  Im glad you guys are listening! I do hope DA do not become " only humans main character in the stories", meh... if Da3 is a human story then I'll pass thanks!, nothing personal it just, well... we had Hawke! at least you guys could had finished with that character.

Hopefully when we finally show what we've been working on, you'll see what we're doing and why and understand that the plan includes you in addition to others who might not be interested in the same things you are-- but undoubtedly there will be many people who just won't feel that way whenever we make any change. Some people will feel like they're being ignored even when they're not. But there you go.

Dieying here to see if I am wrong and DA3 is not another Human centered story with Humans centered organizations/religions...you name it.. for me it gets old real fast. 
I'ld love to be able to start as an elf, no forced to an organization but able to join one or more.
let me get something straight I wouldn't mind start a new just don't give me the same thing and tell me "because is new" ..keep it already have 1.

But of course what also could  keep me here  waiting..I think is hawke, I do want to know how that character will end, I sure hope you guys do not kill him/her I'll be so mad.. rofl... after that I actually don't know, probably hunt for another fantasy-rpg or stick to books.

Modifié par Huntress, 13 septembre 2012 - 04:28 .

[Sealy]

More companion interaction, with one another and with the Protagonist, I know some peoples weren't crazy about it but I liked the random tree bit that you could click on and get a convo if Sigrun/Velanna was with you, it was like "Hey! We're not at base and you still want to talk to me!":o

I like everything your keeping, although an Iconic appearance sorta looks like a lack of race thing and I really, really want the races back. Plus, I was super sad that I couldn't have Garretts awesome hair without taking his beard as well.

More variety in locations... or just try harder then "this door is now locked" to make a location new.

I didn't mind the lack of customization for companions, getting everyone awesome armor becomes tedious and expensive I found.

MP- Yes please. I love the MP in Mass Effect... I don't know how it would be incorporated but it would be awesome-sauce. My friend started playing Mass effect series just for the Multi-Player, I don't believe it is the evil everyone fears, nor do I feel that it wounds the single player experience.

Modifié par Fleshdress, 13 septembre 2012 - 04:33 .

[Emzamination]

Darth Death wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
I think they definitely need to bare in mind the fans opinions.

I also think they need to have a focussed vision of what they want to achieve creatively and don't let that be compramised just because of fan views.

Thus, inevitably, we will try to listen to as many  different fans as we can-- and those fans (primarily the loudest) will struggle to ensure they're the only ones we listen to. We will also try to keep to our own vision of what we want Dragon Age to become... and that will include elements from both DAO and DA2, as well as some from neither.

This is the second time I've seen you say that. Who are the "loudest"?

He's talking about the users who constantly make threads/post about how much they hate Dragon age 2 and how bioware can grovel to earn back their goodwill.

Can't say if this is true or not since Gaider never confirm it, but let's just say that it is for now. If the "loudest" are the "majority" who complain about DA2 then what does that imply?

Re- read his post

The comment I would make is that some people seem to think the only fans
we should be listening to are the fans who liked DAO but didn't like
DA2-- not the fans who liked DA2 and not DAO or the fans who liked both.

Thus, inevitably, we will try to listen to as many  different fans as we
can-- and those fans (primarily the loudest) will struggle to ensure
they're the only ones we listen to.

The loudest are not the majority, they are simply the loudest.They drown out everyone else's opinion with their incessant screaming and ranting.

[Shevy]

Yep, I never heard "I like that feature from Origins" from a dev, at least not in this clarity. Leaving recycled areas out, cause they clearly weren't a volitional feature of DA II.
I know nothing is confirmed to 100% right now, but on voiced protag, dialogue wheel and actiony combat it is kind of, but none of Origins exclusive features such as race selection. It would be nice to hear "yeah, we liked the race selection and are looking into bringing it back even if we can't promise something". It's kind of discouraging as an Origins fan to only hear what was liked of DA II and most likely will be implemented in DA III, while stating it'll "combine what made Origins and DA II great".

[Allan Schumacher]

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

We will also try to keep to our own vision of what we want Dragon Age to become... and that will include elements from both DAO and DA2, as well as some from neither.

That's fine in all, but every feature that you've announced so far were features purely from Dragon Age 2.

1. Voiced Protagonist.
2: Dragon Age 2 Combat
3: Dragon Age 2 Art
4:Dialogue Wheel
5. Iconic appearances
6. Focus on cutscenes

We're also trying to be, frankly, a bit more open.  We've mentioned those things specifically because they are issues that frequently come up and after some fans feeling duped with DA2, I think it's important to be straight up with some of the stuff and be more: "We're not looking to remove these features because we want to iterate on them and improve them."


And since there are those that seem curious, I do feel that Dragon Age is a better game than DA2 is.  That doesn't mean I didn't like some of the ideas DA2 wanted to implement (some more successfully than others).

[Darth Death]

Emzamination wrote...

The loudest are not the majority, they are simply the loudest.They drown out everyone else's opinion with their incessant screaming and ranting.

He didn't directly address the question, so again no real confirmation. This is just your interpretation on what you think he means.

[Emzamination]

Darth Death wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The loudest are not the majority, they are simply the loudest.They drown out everyone else's opinion with their incessant screaming and ranting.

He didn't directly address the question, so again no real confirmation. This is just your interpretation on what you think he means.

Ok then, not worth the energy to argue.

[Korusus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

We will also try to keep to our own vision of what we want Dragon Age to become... and that will include elements from both DAO and DA2, as well as some from neither.

That's fine in all, but every feature that you've announced so far were features purely from Dragon Age 2.

1. Voiced Protagonist.
2: Dragon Age 2 Combat
3: Dragon Age 2 Art
4:Dialogue Wheel
5. Iconic appearances
6. Focus on cutscenes

We're also trying to be, frankly, a bit more open.  We've mentioned those things specifically because they are issues that frequently come up and after some fans feeling duped with DA2, I think it's important to be straight up with some of the stuff and be more: "We're not looking to remove these features because we want to iterate on them and improve them."

But those are all the worst parts of DA2, not the best parts from both games.  I haven't even seen you guys mention the presence or nonpresence of a tactical camera going forward.  If you can't even pull that from DA:O, then go ahead and tell us now so we aren't wasting each other's time.

[JoHnDoE14]

  From DA3 I'd simply want it to be more like an Oldschool RPG. I don't want excessive action ; I want important (to the way the story unfolds) dialogue and epic, atmospheric areas to explore. I want that feeling, that insane shiver to the spine, that you got when playing the ambient Icewind Dale 2 and the epic BG 2. I want me and my enemies to have acces (to the same!) thousands of potions, poisons and powerfull spells. I long to have to think about how I am going to approach a battle IN ADDITION to be forced to think during it. I want to listen to that kind of godamn music that you keep singing in your head even after you stop playing (like or or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V6ayeiKkT4&feature=related). No company had even attempted to do this since the golden era of 1998-2001. The only thing that came close was Origins, which without doing half of what I wanted was a good enough game.
  And please, for the shake of all that is holy, if such a marvelous game ever came to existence, do not force me to install Origin to play it.
    That's my 2 cents anyway. I am done venting. Back to playing Xcom until my courses at the university start...

[Allan Schumacher]

Darth Death wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The loudest are not the majority, they are simply the loudest.They drown out everyone else's opinion with their incessant screaming and ranting.

He didn't directly address the question, so again no real confirmation. This is just your interpretation on what you think he means.

For reference sake, I avoided the forums after the release of DAO (aside from what mandatory stuff I needed to do as part of my job) because of the frothing rage I was seeing.

I literally had someone tell me the wish I had been aborted as a fetus so that someone more competent could take my place in QA so BioWare would stop releasing buggy pieces of trash.


If I go to virtually any game forum of any large developer, the most common thing is people visibly upset and even hating the product.  Only in smaller games (especially ones that cater to one very specific audience) will I see more unwavering support, and even then it's often in an "us vs. them" mentality where they'll even defend everything and anything about the game.

[Fallstar]

David Gaider wrote...

ianvillan wrote...
There is a saying of action speaks louder than words, and to me the way DA2 sold less than DAO says that Bioware went in the wrong direction in trying to appeal to the masses.

Personally, I wish fans would stay away from trying to bring economics into their arguments. Because most of you suck at it, and muddy your own arguments by doing so.

You want to talk economics? Then talk about profit. Talk about how other games are selling, instead of ignoring them like they don't exist. If you don't, then you make it plainly obvious you're only paying attention to the part of the data that supports your own agenda, the very thing you're accusing the industry of doing. Or that you're treating this argument as valid only when it appears to support your stance-- because I'm certain nobody who talks about these figures also brings up games they think were high-quality but didn't sell or games they think were low-quality but sold gangbusters, and how there can be a lot of reasons why each of these things occur.

Talk instead about why you like a game and would like to see more games like it. That, at least, is a subject on which a fan can speak with authority.

Since we don't know how much profit DA2 made, or similar games, about the only data we have to go on is sales figures from an unreliable website. People might draw bad conclusions from that data, but the only reason those conclusions are bad is because the data is bad. Garbage in, garbage out. You might say "Don't try to draw conclusions then" but people will inevitably try.

Regarding the OP, it'd be nice to hear about a feature from Origins that is making a return for DA3. And the devs don't need to be so opaque about things. I'm sure most people are capable of understanding that things change all the time, and that not everything you plan to include in the game will actually make it in. The problem with DA2 wasn't that you announced features that didn't make it in; it was that no one understood the scale of the changes prior to pre-ordering due to precisely the same problem that exists now - lack of communication.

Edit: As for comparing how DA is selling to how other RPG franchises are doing, don't series like TES and TW show how well you can do by sticking more or less to the formula? If there other modern triple A RPG games that have sold well by changing direction as severely as DA did, then I am ignorant of them.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 13 septembre 2012 - 04:58 .

[Allan Schumacher]

But those are all the worst parts of DA2, not the best parts from both games. I haven't even seen you guys mention the presence or nonpresence of a tactical camera going forward. If you can't even pull that from DA:O, then go ahead and tell us now so we aren't wasting each other's time.

If you think about it, this is WHY they are being mentioned. First, I disagree that they are the worst parts (and believe it or not, a lot of other people will as well), but they are definitely things that people such as yourself bring up all the time.


On the other hand, if we straight up state we're doing whatever superbly awesome thing that you really really want us to do, and then for some reason we're not able to actually deliver it THEN what are you going to think of us when you play the next game?  Now we've become liars that will say and do anything to make a buck.  Personally I think there's been (intentionally) little information, but if you'd prefer we could just keep silent about all the stuff, even the things you don't want to hear?

We're being stingy on what we state will be in the game because fans see announcements as commitments, and I'd personally rather do some fans a service and state "I know this isn't what you want to hear, but we're looking at still keeping this feature that you aren't too keen on just so that there are no surprises."

We don't do this just to be obstinate and to ****** off fans though. It may be hard to believe, and this is what Gaider indicates when talking about the "loudest" group, but every single one of those features mention DOES have fans that really enjoy having it in the game. And we certainly do look at ways to improve it, while at the same time still making the game that we want to make.

As an anecdote, just among my own personal circle of friends the most frequent complaint I heard about Dragon Age Origins was the way the PC was silent and how the conversation system seemed rather archaic especially after playing Mass Effect. They liked the changes made to that system in DA2, even ultimately enjoyed the entirety of DAO more than DA2. Which is just as valid of a feedback to the game as any other as far as I'm concerned.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 13 septembre 2012 - 05:00 .

[Darth Death]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

The loudest are not the majority, they are simply the loudest.They drown out everyone else's opinion with their incessant screaming and ranting.

He didn't directly address the question, so again no real confirmation. This is just your interpretation on what you think he means.

For reference sake, I avoided the forums after the release of DAO (aside from what mandatory stuff I needed to do as part of my job) because of the frothing rage I was seeing.

I literally had someone tell me the wish I had been aborted as a fetus so that someone more competent could take my place in QA so BioWare would stop releasing buggy pieces of trash.


If I go to virtually any game forum of any large developer, the most common thing is people visibly upset and even hating the product.  Only in smaller games (especially ones that cater to one very specific audience) will I see more unwavering support, and even then it's often in an "us vs. them" mentality where they'll even defend everything and anything about the game.

That's unfortunate & unacceptable. I'm truly sorry you had that happen to you. I was already aware David knew where I was going with my question & decided not to answer it, but I felt it would have been the first step in addressing the issue honestly. Humility & kindness usually triumphs over hatred. Not a easy practice, but a possible one.   

[Brockololly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
If I go to virtually any game forum of any large developer, the most common thing is people visibly upset and even hating the product.  Only in smaller games (especially ones that cater to one very specific audience) will I see more unwavering support, and even then it's often in an "us vs. them" mentality where they'll even defend everything and anything about the game.

I think thats largely the nature of developer forums- people probably coming on and posting on the forum because something is wrong or their game isn't working, etc. Meanwhile, at least right after launch, the people enjoying the game likely aren't necessarily on the forum because they're actually playing the game.


Even if the developer specific forums trend more negative or critical, if you visit other gaming related forums like Penny Arcade or NeoGAF or Something Awful, you can get a general feel on certain issues as to how people are preceiving a given game. You'll no doubt still have the extremes of loving or hating a game but you'll probably get more of the people in the middle.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
We don't do this just to be  obstinate and to ****** off fans though. It may be hard to believe, and  this is what Gaider indicates when talking about the "loudest" group,  but every single one of those features mention DOES have fans  that really enjoy having it in the game. And we certainly do look at  ways to improve it, while at the same time still making the game that we want to make.

My main question though then comes back to Origins to DA2, where there wasn't much in the way of clarity in communicating features from Origins that would be iterated on instead of simply dumped in favor of something completely different. The shift from DA:O to DA2 with things like the tactical view being dumped from the PC version was initially stated as being something central to tactical combat and then when it was no where to be found in the final game, it was never commented on from any of the developers as to where it went or why. Thats the sort of thing thats very frustrating. If  a developer just said "Hey, we wanted to put in the tactical view but we had to get the game out in 10 months and we just couldn't fit it into the release" that would be better than the general silence or wishy washy responses that you get instead.

Why weren't the central elements of Origins simply iterated on for DA2 instead of the wholesale changes that were made? Why are those new elements being iterated on now, while the ones from Origins were not?

Its just very frustrating for me to see a game in Origins which was pretty damn close to fantastic then go in a mostly totally opposite direction for the sequel, taking it in a direction and style that has already been occupied by Mass Effect and any other number of action RPGs. I'll naturally wait and see what DA3 has in store, but I don't understand why certain elements first established in DA2 are being held as Sacred Cows now while so much from Origins was turned on its head.

Modifié par Brockololly, 13 septembre 2012 - 05:40 .

[hoorayforicecream]

DuskWarden wrote...

Since we don't know how much profit DA2 made, or similar games, about the only data we have to go on is sales figures from an unreliable website. People might draw bad conclusions from that data, but the only reason those conclusions are bad is because the data is bad. Garbage in, garbage out. You might say "Don't try to draw conclusions then" but people will inevitably try.

This is Gaider's point. Arguments of this nature are built on incomplete information when they shouldn't be. Gaider is suggesting that you should analyze within a scope that you do have complete information - what you, personally, liked or disliked about the game, rather than making it an economic analysis. It helps him and other devs a lot more when you do that than when you try to make it about economics.

The general problem with this is that many want to make their opinion seem stronger than simply their opinion, and thus present (incomplete) economic data as evidence that further supports their opinion. Unfortunately, this line of thinking doesn't work on a developer, because they have access to much more information than you do (the wonders of telemetry data, among other things) but are constrained for legal/professional reasons from divulging to the general public. Additionally, the people to whom the economic arguments would be effective aren't likely to be reading the forums either. Writers, animators, programmers, designers, artists, and the like aren't involved in the funding decisions of their games.

What the developer cares about is what you liked or disliked and why. That's all. You don't need to prove to him or her that it will make them more money in the long run, nor do you need to support it with sales figures from other games. All the developer cares about is the what and the why, because then they will then bring it up at a design meeting, usually starting off with something like "Someone on the forums said this, and I thought it was a really interesting point."

[megamacka]

NO MULTIPLAYER!
EA already stated that they wont allow companies to release games without MP tho.....
Mass effect 3 was already dumped down because of the extra money / people / development time that had to get into the multiplayer. PLEASE do not make the same mistake twice. Give EA the finger, make us proud.

[Maria Caliban]

ME 3 single player had problems, but none of those are the fault of multiplayer. And no, MP didn't steal resources from SP. And no, the ending wouldn't have been better without MP.

The only problem with Mass Effect MP is that you needed it to get 'the best' ending.

[Uccio]

One point: Loot. Needs to be correct one. When I kill shade or bandit ingame I expect to find something related to that character. Not like, for example, mage cap on qunari. It should be something the creature/character has used/wears himself.

[Gebert]

Things I'd like:

Artstyle: While I don't think the DA2 artstyle was horrible as many other seems to think, I believe Bioware can do better. I'd like more realistic combat animations, and a slightly slower-paced game than DA2, though not as ridiculously slow as DA:O (Two-handers, I'm looking at you<_<). A toned-down design on equipment in general would also be great. 

Equipment: I'm intruiged by the semi-unique-thingy Bioware's going for regarding the companions' gear, and I think it will bring a good balance between the wish for distinctive characters and the joy of equipping your party with new gear. Hopefully gear will only have attribute requirements that makes sense, and have no class restrictions; I'd rather  there be drawbacks for wearing heavier/more protective armour (I quite liked the fatigue system from DA:O), and for weapons, well, there's the individual skill-trees for the different classes.

classes and stats: I liked the change from skill-lines to skill-trees, though there shouldn't be requirements for abilities were you'd need two abilities from different branches of the tree to get the last one. <- Hopefully this made sense...
A more static attribute system where each point actually mattered would also be welcome. Maybe you'd only get 1 attribute point every level, and that the max would be something like 20 in each. 

Dialogue: Let me see what my character is going to say, please, ala the "tooltips" from DE:HR's dialogue system. And as little auto-dialogue as possible. I'd also like the symbols to represent intent rather than what actually will happen to a greater degree than how DA2 did it. Let me fail more.:happy:

Story and companions: I don't really care, as long I'm not railroaded into a very specific belief (i.e. I have to support the Chantry). Branching story is always great, but I'd rather the branching happened within the game, rather than at the end. The Witcher 2 did this really well.

[philippe willaume]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

jackofalltrades456 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

We will also try to keep to our own vision of what we want Dragon Age to become... and that will include elements from both DAO and DA2, as well as some from neither.

That's fine in all, but every feature that you've announced so far were features purely from Dragon Age 2.

1. Voiced Protagonist.
2: Dragon Age 2 Combat
3: Dragon Age 2 Art
4:Dialogue Wheel
5. Iconic appearances
6. Focus on cutscenes

We're also trying to be, frankly, a bit more open.  We've mentioned those things specifically because they are issues that frequently come up and after some fans feeling duped with DA2, I think it's important to be straight up with some of the stuff and be more: "We're not looking to remove these features because we want to iterate on them and improve them."


And since there are those that seem curious, I do feel that Dragon Age is a better game than DA2 is.  That doesn't mean I didn't like some of the ideas DA2 wanted to implement (some more successfully than others).

Hello alan
This is a view shared a fair bit of people.
it could even be argued that how much you like a game is because you hit more ladders than snakes.

Now I teach and practice a fencing written in a language no-one has spoken for 400 years.
In sparing, no ammount of planning and vision, prevent me to get arse ended over to me when i do something now quite good enough.
sure can invoque the rain being to wet, the grass too green, or the lack of relevance of chinesse/japanesse/thai etc technique to HEMA instead of looking at what i was doing.

now as an aside  that seens to be taking the best of both worlds 



Now, i know i don't speak english proper and all that, but what is explianed in the second video, has nothing to do with DA2 combat.
So my question is
is it that i am mistaken or i am going not to be respected the day after the night before?

phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 13 septembre 2012 - 06:46 .

[megamacka]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ME 3 single player had problems, but none of those are the fault of multiplayer. And no, MP didn't steal resources from SP. And no, the ending wouldn't have been better without MP.

The only problem with Mass Effect MP is that you needed it to get 'the best' ending.

I honestly do not believe that.
The time, money and people etc that was working on MP should've been working on the SP. Sure it probably would only have been a little more refined but I believe that the MP could have been a nice DLC instead or added later on.

   80% less dialogue choices, weaker enviroments, rushed zones, plot holes, going from A to B through small corridors with no real freedom.... Mass effect 3 just felt incredible lazy and rushed ( except for Rannoch and Tuchanka imo which was amazing, Patrick weekes <3 ).

   Dragon age and mass effect r both incredibly important to me and I do NOT want to see the same thing that happened to Mass effect 3 happen to Dragon age 3. That would break my heart. I honestly don't trust Bioware anymore and my hopes for DA3 are low indeed. If they do manage to pull off DA3 then that would mean everything to me tho.

[megamacka]

Ukki wrote...

One point: Loot. Needs to be correct one. When I kill shade or bandit ingame I expect to find something related to that character. Not like, for example, mage cap on qunari. It should be something the creature/character has used/wears himself.

You are forgetting the cheese. Everyone should drop cheese!

[Little Princess Peach]

I would like to have more interactions with the Li, say if the pc is angry sad about somthing, the li would react in a certain way.

ALso maybe not having the romances feel as forced like in da2, Anders was fun to romance but I thaught it was strange that he was hitting on Hawke first and right after he lost his first lover...

also I would like to see a combination of cmbat, the fastness of da2 but with dao's combat style.

also I would like the pc's background expanded more like having a quest or two involing that background trait, masseffect 3 had very little of this and I would like it in me3, maybe they can talk about there parents and past with friends and li, also one last thing...

No skittle choices at the end please I've had enough of stupid endings to last a life time