223 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

For me the situation with Ella is the perfect worst-case scenario for Anders/Justice; he loses control and turns his fury on an innoccent.  Now whether or not he kills her, how many times would that situation have to arise, where Anders loses control and threatens innoccent lives, before you would deem him unsalvagable?  How many before you accept that there is a problem and Anders can't be allowed to just run loose until it's been dealt with?

For me it's one.  After the situation with Ella all I could think was that the only thing that stopped him was me and I can't always be there.  Worse what happens when the day comes that even I won't be able to stop him.  I don't actually suggest he leave though because then there's nobody watching him and who knows what he'll do then.

So how about everyone else; not looking to argue the circumstances of the events or anything like that I'm just looking to gauge how dangerous Justice needs to become before people, haters and supporters alike, feel compelled to put a lid on it.

[TEWR]

I'd say one is enough, but it'd certainly help if Bioware actually showed Anders losing himself to Justice more then once an Act.

Because in Act 1, it happens once.

In Act 2, it happens twice only if you take him to the Fade, but that instance can't really be considered losing himself to Justice/Vengeance as that's Justice's natural home.

In Act 3, it happens... once. And that's only if he's Rivaled.

And yet if Rivaled, we are told that he is losing the fight against Justice. So then why can't we see himself losing himself more then once per act?

Also, I'm of the mind that once he's killed, Justice/Vengeance is free to roam Thedas. I actually view Justice/Vengeance not as a Demon, but as a Spirit/Demon intertwined as one being at most. Alternatively, he's still just a Spirit, but operating under a darker premise of what constitutes justice.

For as I've said many times in the past, justice and vengeance are two sides of the same coin, with one side being a slightly darker shade.

[Renmiri1]

He actually loses himself pretty badly on the Short Story, which takes place right after he merges with Justice. If you read it you will think that the stuff with Ella is just playing with kittens!

http://dragonage.bio...racters/anders/

Read it and you see that during the episode with Ella Anders is holding Justice back. During the entire length of DA2 he holds Justice back, even on Act 3.

IMHO the reason Anders asks you to come help free Karl on Act 1 is to avoid a massacre. He even tells you that "I will get Karl out no matter what the cost". Hawke and the party are there not to protect Anders and Karl, but to protect the templars.
The same goes for Ella. He begs you to be there, even though he has been going in and out of the Gallows on that tunnel for ages. But he knows his control is slipping so he wants you there. Not to protect him. To protect people FROM him.

My Hawke stays with him. She loves him and thinks she can help Anders control Justice. Even after Act 3.

[TEWR]

I've read it, but Hawke isn't privy to those events. It also conflicts pretty badly with some things that happen in-game, like how he can be stabbed in the chest with a sword and not die but he can't die from a dagger in the back.

[Renmiri1]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've read it, but Hawke isn't privy to those events. It also conflicts pretty badly with some things that happen in-game, like how he can be stabbed in the chest with a sword and not die but he can't die from a dagger in the back.

Because he WANTS to die.

There is no conflict. Anders simply refuses to summon Justice and go "Abomination". Therefore he is just human and can be killed. No blue glowing, right ? Anders keeps a lid on Justice.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 10 septembre 2012 - 04:45 .

[Gallimatia]

There should be an option to try to kill Anders after he kills/almost kills Ella. It would be the appropriate response for many Hawkes but instead we get the option to send him on his merry way after what Anders agrees is a hideous crime. Also when you turn him in to the templars they should take it seriously. The scenes could have been like the cut one in DA:O where you turn Morrigan in. Morrigan uses her magic and escapes to return when the plot needs her. Anders/Justice could have done the same. It would have spared templar supporting rivalry Hawke from looking like a hypocrite (mages need to be locked up but not the revolutionary possessed one I have tagging along?) and the templars from looking like complete morons.

For me the recruitment quest was enough to want Anders dead. He pressured Hawke into a fight with hordes of Templars and revealed that he was possessed. The last one of those is enough on it's own. I dislike the supernatural and would like to see every demon, spirit and god dead or at least gone from the world my characters inhabit. Justice is no exception. Also it bugs me that he is completely useless in the Templar fight and makes Hawke's team kill everyone. I reloaded that fight a lot the first time around and I'd be lying if I said it didn't adversely effect my opinion of Anders. In character I'd say it makes sense to react negativly to the massive trouble he gets you into.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 10 septembre 2012 - 07:01 .

[Xilizhra]

As of now, he's only done that once, and did in fact control himself enough to prevent anything from happening in my own playthrough. I'll offer leniency in this case for the time being. The true answer to your question depends on circumstance.

[Plaintiff]

Anders didn't murder Ella. He kept Justice in control, as he has many times before.

And even if he had killed Ella, Anders matters more to my Hawke and to me than all of his "victims" combined. Ella is a stranger to me, it's no skin off my back if she lives or dies. My Hawke kills people every day, just because he's paid to, and Anders helps him.

Neither I nor my Hawke think Anders should blame himself for what Justice does or doesn't do. Anders and Justice are separate entities. I don't hold Anders accountable for Justice's crimes anymore than I blame sufferers of DID for crimes committed by an alternate personality.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:29 .

[sylvanaerie]

It's frustrating how Hawke's options are limited in this game. We don't get an option to go into the Fade to put an end to the merger (which would be my first inclination as soon as he reveals what's happened in Act 1). Barring that, the option to murderknife him then would have saved so much trouble, but made the final act a lot less interesting.

Turning him in to the templars is a joke, and kind of belies the whole 'they're gonna get ya' feeling they should be presenting in order to be perceived as a threat. I realize Hawke isn't going to get taken because...well the game would be damn boring sitting around in the gallows waiting for act 3's events to happen, but you should have had the option to turn him (or Merrill) in to the templars, or even a quest where they are discovered and you have to go rescue them. Anders could still have escaped, he's the Houdini of the Circle, he could still get out and do what he does in Act 3. Would have definitely personalized the threat templars hold on mages if they took your (potential) sweetheart. Bethany in the circle wasn't the same, it wasn't player instigated, and kind of felt removed from the plot-line to me, particularly since most players know they could avoid it if she becomes a Grey Warden instead.

In an argument about spirits/demons with Anders Merrill tells him there's no such thing as a 'good spirit'. All spirits are just spirits. Demons just are attracted to negative emotions instead of positive ones. Even in Awakenings, Justice confessed to feeling envy for the dead man's fleeting memories of his home and family, that sense of belonging. He also had this black and white view of justice that doesn't work well in a world filled with shades of grey like Thedas. How much more confusing it must have been for him to inhabit a living Anders with his anger/hate of templars at times overwhelming the spirit inside him. From the moment both agreed (and in their pride assumed that each could control the other), Justice was demonized. This could only end in tears.

Nearly all my Hawkes made him stay (keep your friends close, and your enemies closer, as it were). One Hawke made him go because she felt maybe if he weren't around other people, he could find some way to control what he was turning into. And I'd never made that choice before and wanted to see if it had any impact on the ending--it doesn't. But if I had the option, then and there to turn him in or kill him, I'd do it. Even if Hawke stops him from killing Ella, and make no mistake, Anders is NOT in control there. Only Hawke's words enable him to pull back in time and stop Justice from going all postal on the kid. Anything but that special option leads to him exploding her head. Ella wasn't my breaking point, him being an abomination was, the situation with Ella just illustrates it more sharply.

[Urzon]

To be absolutly truthful, the whole Ella situation didn't effect me that much.

Yes, Anders almost (or did) lost control of Justice and killed an innocent person, but Anders, and Hawke and friends, kill innocent people all the live long day. How many lyrium smugglers did Hawke and co. have to kill just to get to that conversation anyway? (Heck, Hawke him/herself can be a smuggler for a year.) How many nameless thugs and bandits do will kill through out the game? Just because they are doing something illegal, does that mean their death can be just written off as ok or justified (oh, the irony!)?

Anders is just as dangerous under the influence of Justice, as when he is not. They only thing Justice gave Anders was: a clear goal, motivation, and demon-proofing,

Modifié par Urzon, 10 septembre 2012 - 09:09 .

[Renmiri1]

If you read the short story you will see that as out of control as he looked with Ella he was nowhere near how he was on the short story.

Rolan is still standing, and I smell the lyrium he drank, which guarded him from the blast. But he's afraid. I see his shield jerk and know he barely resisted the urge to flee, and I have a sudden thought, "What am I?" for I've seen him face both broodmothers and abominations without fear.

And then his sword is level with my chest, and I let it come, because it is only steel and cannot hurt me, for I am not of mortal men. And when it sinks hilt-deep in my flesh with no reaction, that's when he gives up. He turns and runs, and from behind, I tear his head off at the neck, no magic, just me, whatever that is now. His blood splashes into my open mouth and it tastes like honeyed wine and the warmth spreads through me
...
And suddenly I'm alone, standing in a burning forest, with the bodies of templars and wardens at my feet. So many, and I didn't even know they were there. Didn't even know I had killed them, but the evidence is all around me. Not the aftermath of a battle as I've known it, but a bloody abattoir of rent limbs and torn and eaten flesh.

Anders/ Justice killed many templars ans wardens ALONE, with no help. Why did he need your help with Karl ? With Ser Alrick ? He had been using the Lyrium smuggler tunnels and had had a "meeting" with Ser Alrick before. And we see above he was perfectly capable of soloing both encounters. He asks Hawke to come... Why ? To help him if he loses control. As Hawke does when Justice turns on Ella.

My Hawke could not let him face all this alone. And she also fears Justice. Trapped out of the fade and corrupted into Vengenace, now needing a new host, what will  be it capable of doing ? Best not find out.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 10 septembre 2012 - 09:14 .

[Knight of Dane]

Urzon wrote...
Yes, Anders almost (or did) lost control of Justice and killed an innocent person, but Anders, and Hawke and friends, kill innocent people all the live long day.

Specify, I don't think my Hawke killed any innocent bystanders at least not if they didn't attack first?

[MichaelStuart]

I wouldn't care how many innocents he killed.
As long as Anders is useful to me, he can do what he wants.

[Xilizhra]

Wouldn't Anders' victory at least remove a source of rage from Justice? With the templars gone, justice would be fulfilled and the rage demony parts might be able to slowly fade. I doubt spirits changing can be a one-way street.

[Renmiri1]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wouldn't Anders' victory at least remove a source of rage from Justice? With the templars gone, justice would be fulfilled and the rage demony parts might be able to slowly fade. I doubt spirits changing can be a one-way street.

Good point. 

Hopefully that gets Justice more mellow 

[Urzon]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Urzon wrote...
Yes, Anders almost (or did) lost control of Justice and killed an innocent person, but Anders, and Hawke and friends, kill innocent people all the live long day.

Specify, I don't think my Hawke killed any innocent bystanders at least not if they didn't attack first?

Ya, it's hard to put the "innocent" label on cannon fodder thugs and smugglers, but it's easier to do given how DA2 started. Hawke had to choose to either be a smuggler or thug (sorry, mercenary) to support his/her family. Why can't that apply to all the thugs in the city as well? They might not like their job, but given how Kirkwall is; people have to turn to crime to support themselves and their families.

Sure there are always going to be bad apples, but if they swing first; it doesn't give you creative right on how they should die. (Hmm... Immolation or bisection today for nameless thug#3?) The only thing special about the Ella situation, is that they gave her a name.

[Urzon]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wouldn't Anders' victory at least remove a source of rage from Justice? With the templars gone, justice would be fulfilled and the rage demony parts might be able to slowly fade. I doubt spirits changing can be a one-way street.

Justice would just move Anders to another source of injustice. How the rich lord treat the poor, the whole situation with the city elves, slavery in Tevinter, the Qunari imposing their will on Thedas, petty theft, litterbugs..,

Justice has many other things to move onto.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In Act 3, it happens... once. And that's only if he's Rivaled.

I would say that's because the distinction between Anders and Justice is so thin now that it's practically non-existent.

[SeptimusMagistos]

About three I'd say.

It's a tough situation and anyone can lose control once. Twice is pushing it but understandable if the incidents are spaced far enough apart. Once he establishes a pattern, it's probably best to stop him.

Luckily my Hawke's trust of Anders paid off and we never again had an incident like that.

[thats1evildude]

sylvanaerie wrote...

It's frustrating how Hawke's options are limited in this game. We don't get an option to go into the Fade to put an end to the merger (which would be my first inclination as soon as he reveals what's happened in Act 1).

I doubt that's possible. Justice didn't possess Anders from the Fade, he was pulled into the mortal world by the Baroness.

[Gallimatia]

Urzon wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Urzon wrote...
Yes, Anders almost (or did) lost control of Justice and killed an innocent person, but Anders, and Hawke and friends, kill innocent people all the live long day.

Specify, I don't think my Hawke killed any innocent bystanders at least not if they didn't attack first?

Ya, it's hard to put the "innocent" label on cannon fodder thugs and smugglers, but it's easier to do given how DA2 started. Hawke had to choose to either be a smuggler or thug (sorry, mercenary) to support his/her family. Why can't that apply to all the thugs in the city as well? They might not like their job, but given how Kirkwall is; people have to turn to crime to support themselves and their families.

This remind me of ME2. Shepard running around slaughtering hundreds upon hundreds of "criminals" and "mercs" for dubious reasons like recruting ruthless vigilantes the Illusive Man thinks you need. While Garrus talks about shooting mercs and criminals for "target practice" it seems to escape him that Shepard is or has been both something that should be painfully obvious when Shepard's background is "I grew up on the streets fighting for every scrap of food" (with "the Reds") and is currently on Cerberus payroll. Nevermind that Garrus himself probably has Omega's highest murder rate and that pretty much no squadmate is a stranger to crime and quite a few have a history of organized crime. Garrus by the way does attack first, robbing and murdering smugglers to provoke them to attack his "well prepared kill zones".

Well I did as few missions as possible in ME2 but in DA2 I find it easier to kill mooks because it doesn't feel like what you see on screen is Hawke's reality. Hawke and his squad moves at a completely different pace than everyone else in the world and it's outside the realm of the possible anything but a mage Hawke could do what Hawke does and even then it's a huge stretch. The limit to what one man or a group of four can do in muscle based melee combat is low and not close to what happens in game.

Modifié par Gallimatia, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:56 .

[EricHVela]

Unfortunately, it isn't so simple. With Hawke there to talk Anders/Vengeance down, we don't know if Anders would have come to his senses before the last moment. There was some reasoning with him, and I would not consider him not "salvageable" by that action alone.

What made him worthy of the scrapyard was when Hawke can't talk him down in Legacy. Even if he's the LI, he loses all control and tries to kill Hawke.

Anders showed that Hawke cannot trust him in Legacy. If there was another Justice spirit, it would likely have sentenced Anders to confinement or death for his actions.

How this differs from mages is that most of the mages have not tried to kill someone outright. It is not justice to convict them of a crime that they did not attempt. (To me, that would be like imprisoning everyone that can use a concealed gun.)

[Renmiri1]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Unfortunately, it isn't so simple. With Hawke there to talk Anders/Vengeance down, we don't know if Anders would have come to his senses before the last moment. There was some reasoning with him, and I would not consider him not "salvageable" by that action alone.

What made him worthy of the scrapyard was when Hawke can't talk him down in Legacy. Even if he's the LI, he loses all control and tries to kill Hawke.

Anders showed that Hawke cannot trust him in Legacy. If there was another Justice spirit, it would likely have sentenced Anders to confinement or death for his actions.

How this differs from mages is that most of the mages have not tried to kill someone outright. It is not justice to convict them of a crime that they did not attempt. (To me, that would be like imprisoning everyone that can use a concealed gun.)

No he did not!

He asks for Hawke's help and Justice needs to be b***slapped around a bit to come to his senses but Anders is a Warden and a very powerful mage with an abomination inside. He can get immune to swords, and massacred a group of templars and wardens by himself, tearing them limb from limb. Then eating them and drinking their blood just for spite.

What you see in legacy is just a little spat, that is not Anders + Justice in kill mode. We actually NEVER see that in game. No matter how bad he loses it, Anders always manages to keep a lid and avoid massacres like the one he did on his short story.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 10 septembre 2012 - 08:46 .

[Fiacre]

I really don't see how Anders deserves to die because Corypheus, an ancient tainted magister, which, at the very least, is very, very rare, if he's not the last one left, influences him to the point of losing it for a few minutes. Hawke slaps him around, Anders takes back control and is completely reliable for the rest of the DLC. Unique situations that have as low a chance of occurring as running into a creature like Corypheus does should not be used to judge him. Especially since you might as well judge every Warden the same way, especially the mage Wardens, considering that we're told that he's not the only one Corypheus influenced via the taint.

[nightscrawl]

DPSSOC wrote...

For me the situation with Ella is the perfect worst-case scenario for Anders/Justice; he loses control and turns his fury on an innoccent.  Now whether or not he kills her, how many times would that situation have to arise, where Anders loses control and threatens innoccent lives, before you would deem him unsalvagable?  How many before you accept that there is a problem and Anders can't be allowed to just run loose until it's been dealt with?

For me it's one.  After the situation with Ella all I could think was that the only thing that stopped him was me and I can't always be there.  Worse what happens when the day comes that even I won't be able to stop him.  I don't actually suggest he leave though because then there's nobody watching him and who knows what he'll do then.

So how about everyone else; not looking to argue the circumstances of the events or anything like that I'm just looking to gauge how dangerous Justice needs to become before people, haters and supporters alike, feel compelled to put a lid on it.

Oooo this is one of my fave DA2 topics! Rival Anders, non-romance, is my favorite method of play.

I've had a lot of opportunity to observe Anders. I've played though DAA three full times, DA2 about a dozen. I've done the friend, rival, romance, non-romance; all possible combinations.

My view of Anders is rather complicated. I was initially happy to see the carryover from DAA, and unlike some players, I didn't feel totally disconnected from that Anders, being able to reason out some of the character differences (which I won't get into here). As the time went on, I grew to dislike him more and more. If you read all of the party banter, Anders is one of the most caustic people in Hawke's entire crew -- Fenris comes in second if only for the level of viciousness in his remarks to Merrill, although she seems to bring out the worst in him about pretty much every subject. Everyone else has either a friendly relationship with others (like Varric who is friendly with everyone), or mixed dependent on who the person is.

Then I did my first Anders rivalmance, which basically forced me to find a reason to have an attraction to Anders (note I don't say "like") that would be compelling enough for the romance, while still satisfying the merits of a rival relationship. There are aspects to Anders that I do like and admire: he is sometimes funny and charming, but usually darkly serious, passionate, and determined; once in a while the old (DAA) Anders shines through, but those moments are rare and precious indeed.

I readily admit that those parts of him are on a wobbly fence, easily able to tip over into those parts I don't like about him: stubbornness, a blind belief that ALL mages strive for the same things he does, a lack of tact bordering on insolence, and a cutting wit that is willing to say things to hurt people. The conflict between these things fuels the rivalmance for me, further bolstered by concern and fear over his lack of control over Justice.

After doing the rivalmance, I found that those feelings carried over into my non-romance play with Anders as well. I've grown to like Anders for who he is in DA2, all facets of his personality. I think he is one of the most interesting and dynamic characters in the entire game, especially if you (as a player) are willing to do a friend AND a rival play.


To the topic at hand... His lack of control is a big concern for me. It leads to the lack of trust I have in Anders. However, I do have a concern for him as a friend. With the Ella incident he shows great regret, shame, and self-fear over his actions, even if you manage to save her. Even with the Act 3 rival Justice break, I can see that Anders is trying. To me, the greatest hurt and anger comes from Anders manipulating my feelings and lying to get me to help him against the Chantry in Act 3.

Through all of that however, I still have that small grain of hope that he can master himself. And as we see from the friend relationship, and in particular the friendmance, he can to a degree. Make no mistake, Anders has no illusions about himself. He knows that his anger destroyed his friend; he knows that he is extremely dangerous, unpredictable, and should not be trusted because of it ("You take a grave risk trusting me";) and he knows that his final act on the Chantry will make him a murderer. Anders knows all of these things but persists in them anyway because he is severely goal oriented and believes that the end (mage freedom) justifies the means (war: leading to the deaths of thousands of innocents, mage, templar, and bystanders alike).

What happens to Anders is nothing less than a tragedy. I hate having to kill him, feel regret over it, but I also feel the necessity.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 10 septembre 2012 - 10:13 .