223 réponses à ce sujet

[Renmiri1]

That party banter is so typical of Justice in DAA! The busybody putting his nose on everyone's life and being judgmental is pure Justice.

With Merril I see not cruelty but half friendly concern, half an unwelcome mirror into what he is. What he says to Merril he is sometimes saying to himself. Seeing our own faults on others is disquieting. I know as a mom that when I see stuff I hate about me on my daughters actions it drives me bonkers!

[LobselVith8]

Renmiri1 wrote...

He actually loses himself pretty badly on the Short Story, which takes place right after he merges with Justice. If you read it you will think that the stuff with Ella is just playing with kittens!

Which might mean something if it didn't contradict the game. How would the templars force the (pro-mage) Warden-Commander to recruit a templar spy? This makes no sense with Greagoir as Knight-Commander (see: US ending for Surana or Amell Warden) and a pro-mage ruler, in addition to the Rylock incident. Why is Anders a cannibal in the short story, but not the game? Why is Anders immune to weapons? It's a short story that clashes strongly with the narrative in the game.

[Silfren]

Renmiri1 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've read it, but Hawke isn't privy to those events. It also conflicts pretty badly with some things that happen in-game, like how he can be stabbed in the chest with a sword and not die but he can't die from a dagger in the back.

Because he WANTS to die.

There is no conflict. Anders simply refuses to summon Justice and go "Abomination". Therefore he is just human and can be killed. No blue glowing, right ? Anders keeps a lid on Justice.

This is a really weak rationalization.  Justice is ALWAYS part of Anders, even when he's dormant.  It isn't as though when he's not in control that he's no longer there, no longer inside Anders' body. 

[Renmiri1]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

He actually loses himself pretty badly on the Short Story, which takes place right after he merges with Justice. If you read it you will think that the stuff with Ella is just playing with kittens!

Which might mean something if it didn't contradict the game. How would the templars force the (pro-mage) Warden-Commander to recruit a templar spy? This makes no sense with Greagoir as Knight-Commander (see: US ending for Surana or Amell Warden) and a pro-mage ruler, in addition to the Rylock incident. Why is Anders a cannibal in the short story, but not the game? Why is Anders immune to weapons? It's a short story that clashes strongly with the narrative in the game.

Is a short story written by the writer who wrote Anders, to introduce the character

If you played Awakenings you had a quest for Anders phylactery where the templar goes against King Alistair and tries to kill the Warden if the Warden defends Anders. Gregoire might be a reasonable templar but he is not the only one around. There are zealots  in Ferelden. We see them in game on Awakenings.

Anders is not a canibal. The descripton of the short story sounded like he had transformed into a harvester like being. Something worse than a broodmother at least.


But since we meet a human Anders later we know he can transform back.

Silfren wrote...


This is a really weak rationalization.  Justice is ALWAYS part of Anders, even when he's dormant.  It isn't as though when he's not in control that he's no longer there, no longer inside Anders' body.  

 
Excuse me ?

Instead of putting words in my mouth, how about reading my posts ?

Modifié par Renmiri1, 11 septembre 2012 - 03:26 .

[Silfren]

Renmiri1 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

He actually loses himself pretty badly on the Short Story, which takes place right after he merges with Justice. If you read it you will think that the stuff with Ella is just playing with kittens!

Which might mean something if it didn't contradict the game. How would the templars force the (pro-mage) Warden-Commander to recruit a templar spy? This makes no sense with Greagoir as Knight-Commander (see: US ending for Surana or Amell Warden) and a pro-mage ruler, in addition to the Rylock incident. Why is Anders a cannibal in the short story, but not the game? Why is Anders immune to weapons? It's a short story that clashes strongly with the narrative in the game.

Is a short story written by the writer who wrote Anders, to introduce the character

If you played Awakenings you had a quest for Anders phylactery where the templar goes against King Alistair and tries to kill the Warden if the Warden defends Anders. Gregoire might be a reasonable templar but he is not the only one around. There are zealots  in Ferelden. We see them in game on Awakenings.

Anders is not a canibal. The descripton of the short story sounded like he had transformed into a harvester like being. Something worse than a broodmother at least.


But since we meet a human Anders later we know he can transform back.

Silfren wrote...


This is a really weak rationalization.  Justice is ALWAYS part of Anders, even when he's dormant.  It isn't as though when he's not in control that he's no longer there, no longer inside Anders' body.  

 
Excuse me ?

Instead of putting words in my mouth, how about reading my posts ?

I didn't put words in your mouth.

Justice is physically, literally, inside of Anders.  I don't buy that Anders has some sort of temporary immortality that only comes into effect when Justice/Vengeance is in control. 

The short story does not actually make sense in light of the rest of the story, period. 

[Xilizhra]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

He actually loses himself pretty badly on the Short Story, which takes place right after he merges with Justice. If you read it you will think that the stuff with Ella is just playing with kittens!

Which might mean something if it didn't contradict the game. How would the templars force the (pro-mage) Warden-Commander to recruit a templar spy? This makes no sense with Greagoir as Knight-Commander (see: US ending for Surana or Amell Warden) and a pro-mage ruler, in addition to the Rylock incident. Why is Anders a cannibal in the short story, but not the game? Why is Anders immune to weapons? It's a short story that clashes strongly with the narrative in the game.

Simple: the Hero of Ferelden doesn't stay Warden-Commander for long.

[Red Templar]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

He actually loses himself pretty badly on the Short Story, which takes place right after he merges with Justice. If you read it you will think that the stuff with Ella is just playing with kittens!

Which might mean something if it didn't contradict the game. How would the templars force the (pro-mage) Warden-Commander to recruit a templar spy? This makes no sense with Greagoir as Knight-Commander (see: US ending for Surana or Amell Warden) and a pro-mage ruler, in addition to the Rylock incident. Why is Anders a cannibal in the short story, but not the game? Why is Anders immune to weapons? It's a short story that clashes strongly with the narrative in the game.

The short story being written by the same person who wrote Anders in the game, it is rather representative of who this monster really is.

If your idea of Anders clashes with this short story, it is because your idea of Anders is an idealized creature created in your own mind to champion your views, not the flawed, well-intentioned but murderous hypocrite who exists in the narrative.

The short story alone is proof that this vile individual should have been drowned at birth.

[Xilizhra]

Anders? Hah. Flawed, to be sure, but about the "murderer" thing... as Zevran says, "But truthfully, I think all of us can claim that title, no?" And he's hardly monstrous.

[EricHVela]

Renmiri1 wrote...

What you see in legacy is just a little spat, that is not Anders + Justice in kill mode. We actually NEVER see that in game. No matter how bad he loses it, Anders always manages to keep a lid and avoid massacres like the one he did on his short story.

What you see in Legacy is Anders failing "to keep a lid". He shows that he is incapable of controlling Vengeance.

Anders states that there is no division between Vengeance and him. Whether Anders is still a separate consciousness is immaterial if Vengeance can take over and try to kill Hawke even if Hawke's the LI.

Your point has been successfully disputed. Anders/Vengeance has proven to be dangerous. An uncorrupted spirit of Justice would agree and pass sentence upon Anders/Vengeance for the act of attempted murder.

[Fiacre]

That was under very, very special circumstances and was because of the taint, something that Corypheus used to influence *a lot* of tainted people. That wasn't as much about him not being able to control Vengeance under normal circumstances as not being able to control him while an ancient Magister tried to mindcontrol him.

And no, I don't believe uncorrupted Justice would have passed judgement. I think uncorrupted Justice would have noticed the whole Ancient Magister Trying To Mindcontrol Him Via The Taint thing.

[Xilizhra]

Your point has been successfully disputed. Anders/Vengeance has proven to be dangerous. An uncorrupted spirit of Justice would agree and pass sentence upon Anders/Vengeance for the act of attempted murder.

Unless persuaded otherwise. As he can be with the Architect.

[Lazy Jer]

The answer to the OP's question, for me, depends a lot on whether or not Anders actually killed Ella or just scared the socks off of her. If he just had a close call then I might, as Hawke, be able to BS myself into thinking that he's not all that bad and as long as he's never adventures alone and a cool head is with him then he can be reigned in. It may be BS, but, looking at my own objective personality I'd loose a healer, a deep roads expert and turning my back on a friend if I turned him on for this.

If he'd actually killed Ella then I'd probably turn him in in a heartbeat. There is a clear difference between the killing one does while adventuring and what happened to Ella. What happened with Ella was Anders clearly loosing control to a being that was willing to kill an innocent person. And Ella WAS an innocent. It doesn't matter if Justice recognized or considered her an innocent. The fact is that she was. Justice accused her of being a demon based off of very very very loose "evidence" (i.e. she thought he was a demon). You're putting all of Darktown in danger by letting that walk around, and Darktown's already a bad enough neighborhood.

[Renmiri1]

Your point has been successfully disputed. Anders/Vengeance has proven to be dangerous. An uncorrupted spirit of Justice would agree and pass sentence upon Anders/Vengeance for the act of attempted murder.

I don't see my point disproven at all.

Hawke is alive, no one died in the battle. All the party mebers with you are available to you after it. At maximum on Legacy you get a companion or two knocked unconscious.

Considering we have seen Anders kill in battle many times, and enemies didin't come back, guess what ? he was holding back. The pain of being shot at and rendered unconscious by Hawke and the rest of the team was enough for Anders to "snap out of it". No one was ever in danger during the battle,

Dangerous ? Yes
Capable of killing Hawke ? No

[TEWR]

ReggarBlane wrote...

What you see in Legacy is Anders failing "to keep a lid". He shows that he is incapable of controlling Vengeance.

I actually took that to mean that Justice/Vengeance came out on purpose because Corypheus was trying to control Anders -- because Anders is still a Warden, even if he's not a Warden.

It had nothing to do with failing to keep control of him, but Justice/Vengeance trying to not let Anders be used, possibly hoping Hawke would reign Anders back to his senses.

Of course, it's only a momentary 2 second pop-up, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

[Silfren]

Red Templar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

He actually loses himself pretty badly on the Short Story, which takes place right after he merges with Justice. If you read it you will think that the stuff with Ella is just playing with kittens!

Which might mean something if it didn't contradict the game. How would the templars force the (pro-mage) Warden-Commander to recruit a templar spy? This makes no sense with Greagoir as Knight-Commander (see: US ending for Surana or Amell Warden) and a pro-mage ruler, in addition to the Rylock incident. Why is Anders a cannibal in the short story, but not the game? Why is Anders immune to weapons? It's a short story that clashes strongly with the narrative in the game.

The short story being written by the same person who wrote Anders in the game, it is rather representative of who this monster really is.

If your idea of Anders clashes with this short story, it is because your idea of Anders is an idealized creature created in your own mind to champion your views, not the flawed, well-intentioned but murderous hypocrite who exists in the narrative.

The short story alone is proof that this vile individual should have been drowned at birth.

I'll accept that short story as canon when, and ONLY when, a Bioware official states as much.  

[Renmiri1]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

What you see in Legacy is Anders failing "to keep a lid". He shows that he is incapable of controlling Vengeance.

I actually took that to mean that Justice/Vengeance came out on purpose because Corypheus was trying to control Anders -- because Anders is still a Warden, even if he's not a Warden.

It had nothing to do with failing to keep control of him, but Justice/Vengeance trying to not let Anders be used, possibly hoping Hawke would reign Anders back to his senses.

Of course, it's only a momentary 2 second pop-up, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

Is how I saw it too. By going "Justice" he could ignore the taint voice a bit. And getting Hawke to slap Anders around DID make Anders come back to normal, so maybe Justice's attack was part of the plan. It knew Anders needed some spanking 

Red Templar wrote...

The short story alone is proof that this vile individual should have been drowned at birth.

 
While I agree that the short story shows a vile beast, it is not the only thing we have on Anders.

When we meet him he has been healing wounds, birthing children and more, for free. He also asks for your help to free his friend. Even powerful enough to do it on his own, he has not done so. Why ? Anders is horrified at the prospect of another massacre and will never go alone into a situation that might "trigger" Justice.

Is he dangerous. Yes, very much so. Is he worth saving ? My Hawke thinks so. Yours doesn't. Both valid IMHO

Modifié par Renmiri1, 11 septembre 2012 - 10:34 .

[Knight of Dane]

Urzon wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Urzon wrote...
Yes, Anders almost (or did) lost control of Justice and killed an innocent person, but Anders, and Hawke and friends, kill innocent people all the live long day.

Specify, I don't think my Hawke killed any innocent bystanders at least not if they didn't attack first?

Ya, it's hard to put the "innocent" label on cannon fodder thugs and smugglers, but it's easier to do given how DA2 started. Hawke had to choose to either be a smuggler or thug (sorry, mercenary) to support his/her family. Why can't that apply to all the thugs in the city as well? They might not like their job, but given how Kirkwall is; people have to turn to crime to support themselves and their families.

Sure there are always going to be bad apples, but if they swing first; it doesn't give you creative right on how they should die. (Hmm... Immolation or bisection today for nameless thug#3?) The only thing special about the Ella situation, is that they gave her a name.

You can hardly call anyone innocent if they attack you first, no matter who's the smuggler.

[dragonflight288]

In my mind, Anders is a very dangerous individual. And not just because of the Justice/Vengeance thing either. Varic is also a dangerous individual, Leliana is dangerous, Merrill is also very dangerous in a battle, even if outside of one all she'll do is make frowny faces at you.

But the thing that makes Anders so dangerous is that Justice forcing his way out is unpredictable. Justice destroys the templars under Alrik, and accuses Ela of being one of them for calling him a demon, despite her being part of the group that Anders and Justice both claim they want to help. All she was was a little girl wanting to see her family, who was scared by Anders (and potentially Bethany's apprentice.)

Anders can be lighthearted and fun (Awakening) but unless Justice is under control, he's too much a risk to even be around the people he wants to help. Someone as capable (in battle) as Hawke won't be around him to babysit Justice all the time, and it's almost a guarantee that Anders will lose control again. Where, and when? I can't say, but if it happens in a situation similar to Ela, innocents will die.

[Renmiri1]

Oh but my Hawke will always be there <_<

Modifié par Renmiri1, 12 septembre 2012 - 01:57 .

[dragonflight288]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Oh but my Hawke will always be there <_<

Well good for your Hawke. I can only speak for mine. And since I always play a straight male, I know my Hawke won't always be there.

[Urzon]

Knight of Dane wrote...

You can hardly call anyone innocent if they attack you first, no matter who's the smuggler.

Yet, I remember plenty of times where my Hawke has ran up to groups and threw the first fireball, even more so for rogues (minus the fireball of course). Because red=dead.

In the case of the lyrium smugglers, can you really blame them for attacking first? Those tunnels were said to have been heavily used by all sorts of smugglers. Where if you met someone, there is a good 90% chance that they are smugglers themselves. Where rival groups would gladly cut your throat when you are sleeping and take your goods for themselves, and you would have to protect yourself from if they tried to attack you openly.

If you heard sounds of a battle, followed by a heavily geared group of four stumble upon your path in the tunnels. Which is the most likely?

A) A wealthy nobleman made his way down the tunnels to help his/her abomination friend with a task.

or

A group of smugglers you haven't met before, just killed their way through the tunnel, and you are now standing in their path.
I think most people would agree that B is most likely, because what are the chances A would happen, right?

And to add more backstory to the great land of Thedas, I like to imagine about 1 out of every 10 thugs my PCs kills; there are tearful children asking their mother when daddy is coming home. She would then have to sit them down, and she would have to explain that he is never coming home. Because the Champion/Warden wasn't feeling particularly merciful that day.

Or any day really...

Modifié par Urzon, 12 septembre 2012 - 04:58 .

[Knight of Dane]

Urzon wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

You can hardly call anyone innocent if they attack you first, no matter who's the smuggler.

Yet, I remember plenty of times where my Hawke has ran up to groups and threw the first fireball, even more so for rogues (minus the fireball of course). Because red=dead.

In the case of the lyrium smugglers, can you really blame them for attacking first? Those tunnels were said to have been heavily used by all sorts of smugglers. Where if you met someone, there is a good 90% chance that they are smugglers themselves. Where rival groups would gladly cut your throat when you are sleeping and take your goods for themselves, and you would have to protect yourself from if they tried to attack you openly.

If you heard sounds of a battle, followed by a heavily geared group of four stumble upon your path in the tunnels. Which is the most likely?

A) A wealthy nobleman made his way down the tunnels to help his/her abomination friend with a task.

or

A group of smugglers you haven't met before, just killed their way through the tunnel, and you are now standing in their path.
I think most people would agree that B is most likely, because what are the chances A would happen, right?

And to add more backstory to the great land of Thedas, I like to imagine about 1 out of every 10 thugs my PCs kills; there are tearful children asking their mother when daddy is coming home. She would then have to sit them down, and she would have to explain that he is never coming home. Because the Champion/Warden wasn't feeling particularly merciful that day.

Or any day really...

When I see a enemy group run towards me with weapons drawn, spells summoning and sustained taletns activating, they are no longer innocent.
And that happens at all times combat begins.

Ella is bowed down and begging for mercy, there is no excuse.

[R2s Muse]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Oh but my Hawke will always be there <_<

You know, it's an interesting parallel... in some sense then, if he must "always be watched," is Hawke acting like Anders's own personal templar... ?

Modifié par R2s Muse, 12 septembre 2012 - 12:12 .

[R2s Muse]

Knight of Dane wrote...

Urzon wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

You can hardly call anyone innocent if they attack you first, no matter who's the smuggler.

Yet, I remember plenty of times where my Hawke has ran up to groups and threw the first fireball, even more so for rogues (minus the fireball of course). Because red=dead.

In the case of the lyrium smugglers, can you really blame them for attacking first? Those tunnels were said to have been heavily used by all sorts of smugglers. Where if you met someone, there is a good 90% chance that they are smugglers themselves. Where rival groups would gladly cut your throat when you are sleeping and take your goods for themselves, and you would have to protect yourself from if they tried to attack you openly.

If you heard sounds of a battle, followed by a heavily geared group of four stumble upon your path in the tunnels. Which is the most likely?

A) A wealthy nobleman made his way down the tunnels to help his/her abomination friend with a task.

or

A group of smugglers you haven't met before, just killed their way through the tunnel, and you are now standing in their path.
I think most people would agree that B is most likely, because what are the chances A would happen, right?

And to add more backstory to the great land of Thedas, I like to imagine about 1 out of every 10 thugs my PCs kills; there are tearful children asking their mother when daddy is coming home. She would then have to sit them down, and she would have to explain that he is never coming home. Because the Champion/Warden wasn't feeling particularly merciful that day.

Or any day really...

When I see a enemy group run towards me with weapons drawn, spells summoning and sustained taletns activating, they are no longer innocent.
And that happens at all times combat begins.

Ella is bowed down and begging for mercy, there is no excuse.

You know this is a toughie... and every time I try to write one of these fight scenes in a story, trying to make it semi-realistic, all I can conclude is that the bloody-splashy, every single person dies in every fight model of gameplay is just that, gameplay. If indeed the death of one individual is to be such a wrenching experience, then even those red-circled smugglers should cause at least a few twinges of conscience. My new headcanon is that even when they "die" they can get back up again afterwards and heal, just like the companions.