223 réponses à ce sujet

[Lazy Jer]

Urzon wrote...

Yet, I remember plenty of times where my Hawke has ran up to groups and threw the first fireball, even more so for rogues (minus the fireball of course). Because red=dead.

In the case of the lyrium smugglers, can you really blame them for attacking first? Those tunnels were said to have been heavily used by all sorts of smugglers. Where if you met someone, there is a good 90% chance that they are smugglers themselves. Where rival groups would gladly cut your throat when you are sleeping and take your goods for themselves, and you would have to protect yourself from if they tried to attack you openly.

If you heard sounds of a battle, followed by a heavily geared group of four stumble upon your path in the tunnels. Which is the most likely?

A) A wealthy nobleman made his way down the tunnels to help his/her abomination friend with a task.

or

A group of smugglers you haven't met before, just killed their way through the tunnel, and you are now standing in their path.
I think most people would agree that B is most likely, because what are the chances A would happen, right?

And to add more backstory to the great land of Thedas, I like to imagine about 1 out of every 10 thugs my PCs kills; there are tearful children asking their mother when daddy is coming home. She would then have to sit them down, and she would have to explain that he is never coming home. Because the Champion/Warden wasn't feeling particularly merciful that day.

Or any day really...

That's a game mechanics issue.  You really can't say that the people Hawke & Co. kill in random encounters are innocent because they didn't get to attack first.  The reason why "Red=Dead" is because they are going to attack you.  It is a stone-cold fact.  It doesn't matter what their reasons are for attacking, the fact is they did and can't be talked out of it.  I play the xBox version of the game and I have yet to stumble across the "Reason with the people attacking me" button.  If there was one, then maybe your argument that Hawke & Co. are killing innocent people during random encounters might hold weight.  But since there isn't one, eh...not so much.

P.S. "Feeling particularly merciful" during those attacks means standing there and letting them kill you.  No one living is that altruistic.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 12 septembre 2012 - 04:32 .

[Fiacre]

One can knock people out, though.

And what about people like those refugees that try to protect Anders when you first go looking for him? Sure, they attack you, but considering the reason... And what about blood mage thralls? I think there's a "gang" comprised mainly of a bunch of blood mages and their thralls operating in High Town during Act 3.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Fiacre wrote...

One can knock people out, though.

And what about people like those refugees that try to protect Anders when you first go looking for him? Sure, they attack you, but considering the reason... And what about blood mage thralls? I think there's a "gang" comprised mainly of a bunch of blood mages and their thralls operating in High Town during Act 3.

No one can't. At least not going by game mechanics.

If they want to surrender - fine. We can negotiate. If they attack my group without provocation and keep doing it after half of them are dead? Suicide by Hawke.

[Lazy Jer]

Fiacre wrote...

One can knock people out, though.

And what about people like those refugees that try to protect Anders when you first go looking for him? Sure, they attack you, but considering the reason... And what about blood mage thralls? I think there's a "gang" comprised mainly of a bunch of blood mages and their thralls operating in High Town during Act 3.

The refugees can be reasoned with.  The blood mage thralls can't.  It's a damn shame, maybe, but you really don't have much of an option available to you.  There's no "flat of the blade" option, there's no "incapactitate" opion.  They're going to kill you if you don't kill them.  You don't even have the option of running away because the game prevents you from leaving the area if you're in combat.

More importantly neither situation is applicable to the Ella situation.  She wasn't attacking anyone.  She didn't even bother attacking Ser Alrick and his gang of perverted templars.  She certainly wasn't showing any sign of attacking Anders when he went all glowing skin and otherworldly voice on her.  She's a young girl cowering in the corner the entire time and isn't attacking anyone period end of sentence.

[Silfren]

Urzon wrote...

Ya, it's hard to put the "innocent" label on cannon fodder thugs and smugglers, but it's easier to do given how DA2 started. Hawke had to choose to either be a smuggler or thug (sorry, mercenary) to support his/her family. Why can't that apply to all the thugs in the city as well? They might not like their job, but given how Kirkwall is; people have to turn to crime to support themselves and their families.

Sure there are always going to be bad apples, but if they swing first; it doesn't give you creative right on how they should die. (Hmm... Immolation or bisection today for nameless thug#3?) The only thing special about the Ella situation, is that they gave her a name.

This is a ridiculous comparison.  A person's reasons for taking on the life of a mercenary or smuggler has zero bearing on the right of another person to defend their own life if said mercenary or smuggler is attempting to kill them.

[General User]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Oh but my Hawke will always be there <_<

Then one day, probably sooner than you might think, your Hawke will be the target of one of Anders' little episodes.

If Hawke was the one that stopped Anders from killing Ella, who's going stop Anders from killing Hawke?

Modifié par General User, 12 septembre 2012 - 08:02 .

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Oh but my Hawke will always be there <_<

Then one day, probably sooner than you might think, your Hawke will be the target of one of Anders' little episodes.

If Hawke was the one that stopped Anders from killing Ella, who's going stop Anders from killing Hawke?

Hawke being a better fighter. And that assumes that he even has said episodes. That one only came after three years of having to restrain himself from fighting openly. This is no longer necessary.

[General User]

No more holding back, huh? Sounds like a recipe for more "Ellas", not less.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

No more holding back, huh? Sounds like a recipe for more "Ellas", not less.

It means that the rage will be individually distributed, not pent up until it explodes in bad directions.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

No more holding back, huh? Sounds like a recipe for more "Ellas", not less.

It means that the rage will be individually distributed, not pent up until it explodes in bad directions.

Really?  You do realize that we're talking about Anders here, right?  A chap who's demonstrated bouts of uncontrollable supernatural rage and an indifference to human life.  And you think putting him right smack dab in the middle of a full scale war is going to... level him out?  Really?

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

No more holding back, huh? Sounds like a recipe for more "Ellas", not less.

It means that the rage will be individually distributed, not pent up until it explodes in bad directions.

Really?  You do realize that we're talking about Anders here, right?  A chap who's demonstrated bouts of uncontrollable supernatural rage and an indifference to human life.  And you think putting him right smack dab in the middle of a full scale war is going to... level him out?  Really?

Yes. The internal war between him and Justice will be less of an issue now that there's open conflict to engage in. There's not the most pressing need to care about the lives of templars currently attacking you/others.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

No more holding back, huh? Sounds like a recipe for more "Ellas", not less.

It means that the rage will be individually distributed, not pent up until it explodes in bad directions.

Really?  You do realize that we're talking about Anders here, right?  A chap who's demonstrated bouts of uncontrollable supernatural rage and an indifference to human life.  And you think putting him right smack dab in the middle of a full scale war is going to... level him out?  Really?

Yes. The internal war between him and Justice will be less of an issue now that there's open conflict to engage in. There's not the most pressing need to care about the lives of templars currently attacking you/others.

As of the end of DA2, the internal war between Anders and Justice is over; and they both lost, Vengeance won.  And, what Vengeance wants is to wage his own personal crusade against the world and doesn't care who gets hurt along the way.

[Xilizhra]

Anders seemed quite fine at the end of the game, for me. Far more upbeat and in control.

[Renmiri1]

General User wrote...

As of the end of DA2, the internal war between Anders and Justice is over; and they both lost, Vengeance won.  And, what Vengeance wants is to wage his own personal crusade against the world and doesn't care who gets hurt along the way.

I disagree. You seem to think 2-3 "episodes" in 7 years is proof he blows up every week. I think it is just the opposite.

Granted, Anders is dangerous and Hawke is taking a risk in trusting him. But is a risk my Hawke feels is worth it. Yours doesn't. Which of us is wrong ? Not me, not you. We just have different headcannon for the post game events <_<

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders seemed quite fine at the end of the game, for me. Far more upbeat and in control.

 

THIS

And also a lot more sure of Hawke's love for him. Before he was always pretty much begging for Hawke's attention. Game end is the first time he imposes a condition for Hawke to be with him. My Hawke will slap some sense into him later but for now she is letting it pass 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 12 septembre 2012 - 08:51 .

[Lazy Jer]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

No more holding back, huh? Sounds like a recipe for more "Ellas", not less.

It means that the rage will be individually distributed, not pent up until it explodes in bad directions.

Really?  You do realize that we're talking about Anders here, right?  A chap who's demonstrated bouts of uncontrollable supernatural rage and an indifference to human life.  And you think putting him right smack dab in the middle of a full scale war is going to... level him out?  Really?

Yes. The internal war between him and Justice will be less of an issue now that there's open conflict to engage in. There's not the most pressing need to care about the lives of templars currently attacking you/others.

It won't be so much less of an issue as much as it will be an issue that's on the back-burner.  It will be distracted from not gone entirely.  So what happens after  the war?  If he's been fighting the whole time, do you expect that switch to just flip off?  I have my doubts.

[General User]

Renmiri1 wrote...

General User wrote...

As of the end of DA2, the internal war between Anders and Justice is over; and they both lost, Vengeance won.  And, what Vengeance wants is to wage his own personal crusade against the world and doesn't care who gets hurt along the way.

I disagree. You seem to think 2-3 "episodes" in 7 years is proof he blows up every week. I think it is just the opposite.

I think nothing of the sort.  It's just that when Anders "blows up" people die.  A lot of people.  He's a monster on a leash made out of string.

Granted, Anders is dangerous and Hawke is taking a risk in trusting him. But is a risk my Hawke feels is worth it. Yours doesn't. Which of us is wrong ? Not me, not you. We just have different headcannon for the post game events <_<

And if it was just "your Hawke" that would be your business.  But what about all the other people that get caught in the middle each time Anders has an "episode"?

And also a lot more sure of Hawke's love for him. Before he was always pretty much begging for Hawke's attention. Game end is the first time he imposes a condition for Hawke to be with him. My Hawke will slap some sense into him later but for now she is letting it pass 

It's not your Hawke slapping Anders that you need to be concerned with but rather when Anders starts slapping your Hawke.  Because there's a good chance that the first instance is going to be fatal for one party or the other.

[General User]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

No more holding back, huh? Sounds like a recipe for more "Ellas", not less.

It means that the rage will be individually distributed, not pent up until it explodes in bad directions.

Really?  You do realize that we're talking about Anders here, right?  A chap who's demonstrated bouts of uncontrollable supernatural rage and an indifference to human life.  And you think putting him right smack dab in the middle of a full scale war is going to... level him out?  Really?

Yes. The internal war between him and Justice will be less of an issue now that there's open conflict to engage in. There's not the most pressing need to care about the lives of templars currently attacking you/others.

It won't be so much less of an issue as much as it will be an issue that's on the back-burner.  It will be distracted from not gone entirely.  So what happens after  the war?  If he's been fighting the whole time, do you expect that switch to just flip off?  I have my doubts.

I have to think that putting Anders into the Mage-Templar War is only going to exasperate his extremism and violent tendencies (both supernatural and mundane).

Modifié par General User, 12 septembre 2012 - 09:14 .

[Lazy Jer]

General User wrote...
I have to think that putting Anders into the Mage-Templar War is only going to exasperate his extremism and violent tendencies (both supernatural and mundane).

Probably, but if he was in a situation where he was, for lack of a better term, wound up and pointed in the direction of the Templars, and the rest of his time is spent around people who happen to agree with him about mage freedom then there his ire isn't likely to be raised at anyone those in his company don't want it to be raised at.  But eventually the war ends, then...problem.

[Fiacre]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Fiacre wrote...

One can knock people out, though.

And what about people like those refugees that try to protect Anders when you first go looking for him? Sure, they attack you, but considering the reason... And what about blood mage thralls? I think there's a "gang" comprised mainly of a bunch of blood mages and their thralls operating in High Town during Act 3.

No one can't. At least not going by game mechanics.

If they want to surrender - fine. We can negotiate. If they attack my group without provocation and keep doing it after half of them are dead? Suicide by Hawke.

Of course you can't in game, I know that. But in theory, Hawke -- not the player -- has the option to simply knock those refugees out if he fails to persuade them that he won't hurt Anders. Depending on how the blood magic binding those thralls works, perhaps one could knock them out and free them after killing the blood mage. The game never lets you so Hawke goes around killing evryone.

And while these situations may not be applicable to Ella, the bottom point is that Hawke kills a lot, Hawke killling a lot might not always be necessary, from an in-universe perspective, and Hawke can therefore be pretty merciless himself at times.

[Renmiri1]

General User wrote...

nothing of the sort.  It's just that when Anders "blows up" people die.  A lot of people.  He's a monster on a leash made out of string.

Not true. No one died when he saved Karl, and no one died when we saved Ella. Not on my PT.

General User wrote...

And if it was just "your Hawke" that would be your business.  But what about all the other people that get caught in the middle each time Anders has an "episode"?

Another reason my Hawke wants to stick around. She thinks she can help Anders through the episodes, as she has done in the past 7 years.

General User wrote...

It's not your Hawke slapping Anders that you need to be concerned with but rather when Anders starts slapping your Hawke.  Because there's a good chance that the first instance is going to be fatal for one party or the other.

My Hawke has absolutely no fear of Anders. He may be a loony possessed mage but he loves her more than he loves himself or even the mage cause.. I see that as the reason he didn't tell her about the bombing. His odds of succeeding could have been greatly improved but would have forced Hawke to be at risk. Something not even the mage freedom was worth 

Seriously, I get no woman batterer vibe from Anders. Maybe Fenris would but I don't see any of the abusive behavior you see on men who hit women on the Anders character.  Chris Brown OTOH... 

[General User]

Lazy Jer wrote...

General User wrote...
I have to think that putting Anders into the Mage-Templar War is only going to exasperate his extremism and violent tendencies (both supernatural and mundane).

Probably, but if he was in a situation where he was, for lack of a better term, wound up and pointed in the direction of the Templars,

The thing is Anders isn't a cruise missile.  He's nothing if not willfull.  If's he's at all disatisfied with the targets in whose direction he has been pointed, he's just going to go seek his own.  And then where are we going to be?  

and the rest of his time is spent around people who happen to agree with him about mage freedom then there his ire isn't likely to be raised at anyone those in his company don't want it to be raised at. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there stark differences of opinion among mages about how, and to what degree to proceed with the war? 

How will Anders decide to deal with those mages whom he decides are "not sufficently dedicated to the cause"?  Or worse, how will Anders deal with those mages who are (in his mind anyway) "traitors" to the cause?   Will he shrug and say "as long as they stay out of my way'?  Or will he treat them more like... Ella?

But eventually the war ends, then...problem.

I was just thinking along these lines, and it occurs to me that Anders didn't really ask anyone else's permission to start this war.  I can't imagine he's going to be looking to take anyone's orders when it comes to stopping.

Modifié par General User, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:47 .

[Lazy Jer]

Fiacre wrote...

Of course you can't in game, I know that. But in theory, Hawke -- not the player -- has the option to simply knock those refugees out if he fails to persuade them that he won't hurt Anders. Depending on how the blood magic binding those thralls works, perhaps one could knock them out and free them after killing the blood mage. The game never lets you so Hawke goes around killing evryone.

And while these situations may not be applicable to Ella, the bottom point is that Hawke kills a lot, Hawke killling a lot might not always be necessary, from an in-universe perspective, and Hawke can therefore be pretty merciless himself at times.

Well even if I agreed to that point, which I still kinda don't (Hawke's level of mercilessness is primarily a function of the player steering him), the point is that in those situations Hawke makes a concious choice based on his situation.  If he goes against the refugees it's because they attacked him and he made a judgment call, more or less the same with the bloodmage thrall.  In Ella's case she was a complete non-combatent, and the kind of person that Anders himself wouldn't have attacked, or else he wouldn't have felt so broken up about what happened.  Justice took over.  Anders was in  the back seat of the proverbial car while Justice was driving and steering it straight in Ella's direction.

Justice was making the decision and, if left to his own devices, would have killed Ella for thinking him a demon.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 12 septembre 2012 - 10:55 .

[Lazy Jer]

General User wrote...

But eventually the war ends, then...problem.

I was just thinking along these lines, and it occurs to me that Anders didn't really ask anyone else's permission to start this war.  I can't imagine he's going to be looking to take anyone's orders when it comes to stopping.

Personally speaking, I can't imagine a whole lot of mages that would be eager to work with him either, before or after the war.

[General User]

Renmiri1 wrote...


Not true. No one died when he saved Karl, and no one died when we saved Ella. Not on my PT.

Several people died when you met Karl and when you saved Ella.  You could say they deserved it, and you'd not be wrong.  But first it was Templars up to shady and nefarious deeds.   Then it was a scared young woman whose only crime was acting like a scared young woman.  Then it was any random person who happened to be in or near the Chantry.   Whose next?

Another reason my Hawke wants to stick around. She thinks she can help
Anders through the episodes, as she has done in the past 7 years.

  No matter what anyone does, no matter how many times anyone may or may not pull Anders back from one ledge or another, he still loses himself in the end.  Your Hawke hasn't helped him.  No one's has.  The only help for Anders is to kill him, and it should have been done years ago.

My Hawke has absolutely no fear of Anders. He may be a loony possessed
mage but he loves her more than he loves himself or even the mage
cause.. I see that as the reason he didn't tell her about the bombing.
His odds of succeeding could have been greatly improved but would have
forced Hawke to be at risk. Something not even the mage freedom was
worth [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Ander's doesn't love himself at all.  He see's himself as a tool to further his cause.  And, while he certainly does care for Hawke after one fashion or another, his cause is something that he cares about far more.

Ask yourself this:  If Hawke told Anders that a bad guy was hiding out in the back of the Hanged Man would Anders also kill any random citizen who happend to be there going about their drinking?  Never.  The very concept of killing random people just because they happend to be in the wrong place at the wrong time would be repugnant to him.  But when it comes to his "cause"?  Then innocent bystanders are (at best) "regrettable necessities."

Seriously, I get no woman batterer vibe from Anders. Maybe Fenris would but I don't see any of the abusive behavior you see on men who hit women on the Anders character.  Chris Brown OTOH... 

It's more like a demon posessed mage with a cause vibe.

Modifié par General User, 12 septembre 2012 - 11:41 .

[General User]

Lazy Jer wrote...

General User wrote...

But eventually the war ends, then...problem.

I was just thinking along these lines, and it occurs to me that Anders didn't really ask anyone else's permission to start this war.  I can't imagine he's going to be looking to take anyone's orders when it comes to stopping.

Personally speaking, I can't imagine a whole lot of mages that would be eager to work with him either, before or after the war.

True enough.  But he's done enough damage all by his lonesome.  Put Anders in a toxic little group willing to feed his madness (or use his madness to feed their own... or both) and I'd say that'd be bad news for just about everyone.

Modifié par General User, 12 septembre 2012 - 11:25 .