223 réponses à ce sujet

[Renmiri1]

General User wrote...

   Then it was a scared young woman whose only crime was acting like a scared young woman.  Then it was any random person who happened to be in or near the Chantry.   Whose next?

Ella is alive and well in my PT

General User wrote...

No matter what anyone does, no matter how many times anyone may or may not pull Anders back from one ledge or another, he still loses himself in the end.  Your Hawke hasn't helped him.  No one's has.  The only help for Anders is to kill him, and it should have been done years ago.

I get that you think that, I just disagree.

General User wrote...

Ander's doesn't love himself at all.  He see's himself as a tool to further his cause.  And, while he certainly does care for Hawke after one fashion or another,

On that we both agree

General User wrote...

his cause is something that he cares about far more.

Ask yourself this:  If Hawke told Anders that a bad guy was hiding out in the back of the Hanged Man would Anders also kill any random citizen who happend to be there going about their drinking?  Never.  The very concept of killing random people just because they happend to be in the wrong place at the wrong time would be repugnant to him.  But when it comes to his "cause"?  Then innocent bystanders are (at best) "regrettable necessities."

Not for 7 years. And he is going to let you  kill him to atone for it. He knows what he did is wrong.

General User wrote...

It's more like a demon posessed mage with a cause vibe.

Indeed. Nothing in his "cause" calls him to kill Hawke. I fail to see why you think Hawke is in any danger from him. If she sides with Templars yes, but siding with mages ? Nope, not seeing. He has been healing people for almost a decade.

But in essence I think "your" Anders is a lot different than the Anders I see in my games. Don't think we will convince each other to switch our views  That is the beauty of a game with options

Modifié par Renmiri1, 13 septembre 2012 - 12:20 .

[Plaintiff]

dragonflight288 wrote...
But the thing that makes Anders so dangerous is that Justice forcing his way out is unpredictable. Justice destroys the templars under Alrik, and accuses Ela of being one of them for calling him a demon, despite her being part of the group that Anders and Justice both claim they want to help. All she was was a little girl wanting to see her family, who was scared by Anders (and potentially Bethany's apprentice.)

People keep sying this like it should be obvious to Justice and that any failure to recognize Ella as 'innocent' means he must be "Maaaaaaaad! Mad, I tell you!"

It's pretty obvious, both from Awakening and DA2 that Justice perceives the world very differently from a human being. He does not have the same sensory capabilities as a human, he can 'sense' the Templars influence over her, which could mean anything. It could easily mean that she is secretly on their side, that the whole situation was a trap and she's trying to lull us into a false sense of security. It didn't play out that way, but it easily could have. What is obvious to us is not obvious to him at all. We don't know how the world looks through his eyes, so to say that he should be able to tell her apart from the templars is an erroneous claim at best, and it would be foolish to discount Justice's opinion in general, when he is able to read people in a way that the other members of the party cannot.

And you know, if I had just saved someone from lobotomy and gangrape, only to have them turn around and call me nasty names, I'd be pissed off too.

[dragonflight288]

Plaintiff wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
But the thing that makes Anders so dangerous is that Justice forcing his way out is unpredictable. Justice destroys the templars under Alrik, and accuses Ela of being one of them for calling him a demon, despite her being part of the group that Anders and Justice both claim they want to help. All she was was a little girl wanting to see her family, who was scared by Anders (and potentially Bethany's apprentice.)

People keep sying this like it should be obvious to Justice and that any failure to recognize Ella as 'innocent' means he must be "Maaaaaaaad! Mad, I tell you!"

It's pretty obvious, both from Awakening and DA2 that Justice perceives the world very differently from a human being. He does not have the same sensory capabilities as a human, he can 'sense' the Templars influence over her, which could mean anything. It could easily mean that she is secretly on their side, that the whole situation was a trap and she's trying to lull us into a false sense of security. It didn't play out that way, but it easily could have. What is obvious to us is not obvious to him at all. We don't know how the world looks through his eyes, so to say that he should be able to tell her apart from the templars is an erroneous claim at best, and it would be foolish to discount Justice's opinion in general, when he is able to read people in a way that the other members of the party cannot.

And you know, if I had just saved someone from lobotomy and gangrape, only to have them turn around and call me nasty names, I'd be pissed off too.

And that's exactly what makes Anders and Justice unpredictable. Justice will perceive anything he sees as an injustice as something to fight against, and he doesn't stop to ask questions.

[General User]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Ella is alive and well in my PT

You can thank Hawke for that.  Anders would have killed her.

I get that you think that, I just disagree.

About how much Anders needed to die maybe.  That Anders lost the battle for his own mind and soul is rather another matter entirely.  Even Anders himself admitted that the man he was going, going, going... gone.

Not for 7 years. And he is going to let you  kill him to atone for it. He knows what he did is wrong.

He knew it indeed.  That didn't stop him from doing it though.

Indeed. Nothing in his "cause" calls him to kill Hawke. I fail to see why you think Hawke is in any danger from him. If she sides with Templars yes, but siding with mages ? Nope, not seeing. He has been healing people for almost a decade.

But Anders didn't side with the mages, he forced the mages to side with him.  Hawke might stay in Anders' good graces as long as Hawke and Anders see eye to eye, but that can only last so long under any circumstances.  And when the other shoe drops it's going to drop hard.

But in essence I think "your" Anders is a lot different than the Anders I see in my games. Don't think we will convince each other to switch our views  That is the beauty of a game with options

I'm not really trying to convince you so much as I just enjoy lively debate.

[Plaintiff]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
But the thing that makes Anders so dangerous is that Justice forcing his way out is unpredictable. Justice destroys the templars under Alrik, and accuses Ela of being one of them for calling him a demon, despite her being part of the group that Anders and Justice both claim they want to help. All she was was a little girl wanting to see her family, who was scared by Anders (and potentially Bethany's apprentice.)

People keep sying this like it should be obvious to Justice and that any failure to recognize Ella as 'innocent' means he must be "Maaaaaaaad! Mad, I tell you!"

It's pretty obvious, both from Awakening and DA2 that Justice perceives the world very differently from a human being. He does not have the same sensory capabilities as a human, he can 'sense' the Templars influence over her, which could mean anything. It could easily mean that she is secretly on their side, that the whole situation was a trap and she's trying to lull us into a false sense of security. It didn't play out that way, but it easily could have. What is obvious to us is not obvious to him at all. We don't know how the world looks through his eyes, so to say that he should be able to tell her apart from the templars is an erroneous claim at best, and it would be foolish to discount Justice's opinion in general, when he is able to read people in a way that the other members of the party cannot.

And you know, if I had just saved someone from lobotomy and gangrape, only to have them turn around and call me nasty names, I'd be pissed off too.

And that's exactly what makes Anders and Justice unpredictable. Justice will perceive anything he sees as an injustice as something to fight against, and he doesn't stop to ask questions.

And what if he had been right? Would you consider his actions to be retroactively justified? Justice can perceive things others cannot, should his opinion not be taken into account?

How are we any more reasonable than Justice is? We are also judging Ella based only on what we perceive of her in that moment, when it could easily be an act. Lord knows whenever Hawke spares anyone else's life, it usually comes back to bite him in the butt. Is it better to err on the side of mercy, or on the side of caution?

[Renmiri1]

General User wrote...
 
I'm not really trying to convince you so much as I just enjoy lively debate.

Well in that case, debate we shall 

General User wrote...

About how much Anders needed to die maybe.  That Anders lost the battle for his own mind and soul is rather another matter entirely.  Even Anders himself admitted that the man he was going, going, going... gone.

Completely disagree with that. Read the short story Anders' writer wrote as "prequel" for DA2 and you will see Anders completely gone. What we see in game is still very much the man controlling a spirit. He lets you kill him, the same guy that solo killed a bunch of Templars and Wardens easily. The man is very much in control, the spirit would have just massacred everything around it.

General User wrote...

He knew it indeed.  That didn't stop him from doing it though.

Indeed. That sucks and made my Hawke angry at him, she disagrees with his decision. But she also knows how impulsive he is and how bat**** crazy Meredith is. 

General User wrote...

But Anders didn't side with the mages, he forced the mages to side with him.

His side ? What does he personally have to fear from Meredith ? He can easily go to Ferelden and live "happily ever after". Heck even in Kirkwall he is not personally at risk. "His side" doesn't exist. He decides to give his life to free mages. A life that was going very well for him, in my PT, he even told Merril and tells Hawke he was happy!

General User wrote...

Hawke might stay in Anders' good graces as long as Hawke and Anders see eye to eye, but that can only last so long under any circumstances.  And when the other shoe drops it's going to drop hard.

Has lasted for 7 years. Anders thinks Hawke will dissaprove of his bombing of the Chantry. What does he do ? Puts himself at your Hawke's mercy. No thought for himself or for his cause, which obviously would have better odds of succeeding with him alive. He goes out of his way to keep Hawke apart from his act. Pushes Hawke away even. Because he thinks Hawke wont see eye to eye with him.

That doesn't sound like someone who can't handle disagreement. Actually sounds like someone who loves and respects Hawke, no matter whether Hawke agrees or not with him.  

Modifié par Renmiri1, 13 septembre 2012 - 02:21 .

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...
And what if he had been right? Would you consider his actions to be retroactively justified? Justice can perceive things others cannot, should his opinion not be taken into account?

How are we any more reasonable than Justice is? We are also judging Ella based only on what we perceive of her in that moment, when it could easily be an act. Lord knows whenever Hawke spares anyone else's life, it usually comes back to bite him in the butt. Is it better to err on the side of mercy, or on the side of caution?

Heh...carefull there, Plaintiff, that sounds suspiciously like the kind of thing I hear from Cullen.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 13 septembre 2012 - 03:33 .

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

And you know, if I had just saved someone from lobotomy and gangrape, only to have them turn around and call me nasty names, I'd be pissed off too.

From this and other posts on the same subject, you've made your feelings on Ella's reaction to Justice clear, and it is an extremely unreasonable position to take on someone who has just been through a serious trauma.  I usually agree with your posts, but your total lack of empathy for an almost-victim of a horrific crime is really disappointing.

I can understand that you'd not appreciate being called names after rescuing someone from being psychically lobotomized and gangraped.  However...that person just narrowly escaped being lobotomized and gangraped, hello?  And a big scary person with glowing eyes and an unnatural voice is standing over them with their rageface on.  You can't seriously expect such a person not to be scared ****less and react accordingly.  Especially since in such a terrifying situation, someone in Ella's position may not be fully cognizant of her surroundings enough to be aware of the details.  They might have seen a bloody fight take place, but that doesn't mean they'll understand that the new people on the scene were fighting to save her life. 

[Plaintiff]

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

And you know, if I had just saved someone from lobotomy and gangrape, only to have them turn around and call me nasty names, I'd be pissed off too.

From this and other posts on the same subject, you've made your feelings on Ella's reaction to Justice clear, and it is an extremely unreasonable position to take on someone who has just been through a serious trauma.  I usually agree with your posts, but your total lack of empathy for an almost-victim of a horrific crime is really disappointing.

I can understand that you'd not appreciate being called names after rescuing someone from being psychically lobotomized and gangraped.  However...that person just narrowly escaped being lobotomized and gangraped, hello?  And a big scary person with glowing eyes and an unnatural voice is standing over them with their rageface on.  You can't seriously expect such a person not to be scared ****less and react accordingly.  Especially since in such a terrifying situation, someone in Ella's position may not be fully cognizant of her surroundings enough to be aware of the details.  They might have seen a bloody fight take place, but that doesn't mean they'll understand that the new people on the scene were fighting to save her life. 

I'm being ever-so-slightly facetious.

I understand perfectly well that Ella is traumatised and not thinking clearly. She's also a fictional character, so I don't think I should be required to treat her like srs bsns all the time. For the five minutes she's onscreen, I find her annoying, so I'm not inclined to be kind.

I find it slightly ironic that people generally accuse me of being insensitive to her situation, but they're extremely insensitive to Anders: "He's menatally ill! Kill him!"

If Anders is insane, as many claim (he's not, because he literally has another identity living inside him, but the situation is comparable), then his situation should evoke sympathy, not hatred. The reason crimes of insanity are treated with more leniency in our sane and civilized justice system (as opposed to the barbaric one these people apparently advocate), is because we recognise that people who are not in full control of their minds cannot be fully to blame for their actions. The correct answer is not to slit their throats, but to seek treatment, or find a way to manage the condition.

Justice only takes over Anders in moments of extreme anger, and even then only rarely. The obvious answer is to a) keep Anders removed from sitatuions that are likely to stress him out, and develop techniques (meditation, breathing control, etc) that will help him to keep calm when such situations are unavoidable.

It works for Bruce Banner, and there's no reason why the same logic should not apply here.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 13 septembre 2012 - 07:14 .

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

I was just thinking along these lines, and it occurs to me that Anders didn't really ask anyone else's permission to start this war. I can't imagine he's going to be looking to take anyone's orders when it comes to stopping.

The war was essentially going on behind closed doors for ages. Anders himself has been a part of the Mage Underground -- a coalition of Mages that fight the Templars and free Mages -- indicating that yes, people did believe fighting was necessary.

Really though, it wouldn't be wrong to label him a Resolutionist. By his actions, he did make himself one, but his reasons for what he did had less to do with simple... I don't want to use terrorism, but some other word. Essentially, the Resolutionists are too violent and, if Fenris is correct, too aligned with Tevinter -- which poses a serious problems.

Anders, by comparison, is more controlled. His version of being a Resolutionist is certainly better then the other version of being a Resolutionist, in which he's fighting for justice as opposed to being a powerful brigand that wants to incite fear amongst the populus and possibly reinstitute the Imperium.

The Resolutionists like the latter -- which I can only assume are the types we fight in Faith -- are part of the problem with granting more freedom, even in limited form, to Mages. Certainly, they were exacerbating the problems of Kirkwall, though they were not the source of it. That fell to Meredith.

Or something like that. I'm tired. Maybe someone else can make a more cohesive statement on what I'm trying to say.

Plaintiff wrote...

It works for Bruce Banner, and there's no reason why the same logic should not apply here.

I believe Anders' Act 3 codex states that he's been losing more and more control over himself, regardless of whether or not he's fighting the good fight.

So, I don't think meditation will help him.

Remiri1 wrote...

No thought for himself or for his cause, which obviously would have better odds of succeeding with him alive

I'd argue that. Anders is just a mage. Sebastian on the other hand is the ruling prince of Starkhaven, who can sway said city to fight for the Mages.

In fact, that's the only way I could possibly justify siding with the Templars. I'd side with them knowing I'm killing innocents, but trying to ensure me being named Viscount so I can have Kirkwall and Starkhaven on my side when fighting for the Mages.

Granted, I doubt Bioware would even permit such a thing. They'd probably have Templar-siding Hawke be pro-Templar no matter what.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 septembre 2012 - 06:57 .

[Plaintiff]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

It works for Bruce Banner, and there's no reason why the same logic should not apply here.

I believe Anders' Act 3 codex states that he's been losing more and more control over himself, regardless of whether or not he's fighting the good fight.

So, I don't think meditation will help him.

Well it's not like he ever tried it.

I don't read the codex, as a rule, unless a particular entry catches my eye. If the information is important to the development of story or character, then I shouldn't have to dig for it. If Anders' control is slipping more and more in Act 3, then we should see his Jekyll-Hyde act more often than we do. Or at least someone should mention it.

Sure, Anders admits to experiencing "blanks" in his memory in the Rivalry path, but without hard eveidence that these occurences are related to Justice, it means nothing. A different, unrelated mental problem could also be the cause. And really, if a blue, glowing man was running around the city exploding jerks into dog food, then I think we'd hear about it.

If it's only happening in private, and Justice is behaving himself, then what is the issue (aside from the fact that being possessed in general isn't exactly a picnic)? 

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't read the codex, as a rule, unless a particular entry catches my eye. If the information is important to the development of story or character, then I shouldn't have to dig for it. If Anders' control is slipping more and more in Act 3, then we should see his Jekyll-Hyde act more often than we do. Or at least someone should mention it.

I agree. I said the same thing on the first page. It actually doesn't make it believable for us to be told he's losing himself more and more, yet we only see it once per act -- and Act 3's is just if you're on the Rivalry path.

I have to accept that it happened though, whether we see it or not. I don't like how Bioware failed to show it, but it's just one of those things I have to begrudgingly accept.

It's just... not given its due.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 septembre 2012 - 08:31 .

[General User]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Completely disagree with that. Read the short story Anders' writer wrote as "prequel" for DA2 and you will see Anders completely gone. What we see in game is still very much the man controlling a spirit. He lets you kill him, the same guy that solo killed a bunch of Templars and Wardens easily. The man is very much in control, the spirit would have just massacred everything around it.

Vengeance is a danger to others not because it is some sort of indiscriminate murderer, but because it is spectacularly single-minded, can't tell friend from foe, and can easily shrug having to kill innocent people along the way.

Indeed. That sucks and made my Hawke angry at him, she disagrees with his decision. But she also knows how impulsive he is and how bat**** crazy Meredith is. 

You know, if Anders keeps killing random people eventually he'll get to someone you do care about.  Will you still be angry at his impulsiveness then?

His side ? What does he personally have to fear from Meredith ?

Getting killed.  Watching others get killed.  ETC.

He can easily go to Ferelden and live "happily ever after".

No, he can't.  No matter where you go, you take yourself with you.  Anders is obsessed with his cause, he could never give it up no matter where he was living.

Heck even in Kirkwall he is not personally at risk.

Yes, he is.  He's being hunted by the Templars.

"His side" doesn't exist.

Which is why Anders bombed the Chantry.  His side didn't exist apart from himself, so he had to create it.

He decides to give his life to free mages. A life that was going very well for him, in my PT, he even told Merril and tells Hawke he was happy!

And he may well have been happy.  But personal happiness wasn't nearly as important to Anders as his cause.  Nothing was.

Has lasted for 7 years. Anders thinks Hawke will dissaprove of his bombing of the Chantry. What does he do ? Puts himself at your Hawke's mercy. No thought for himself or for his cause, which obviously would have better odds of succeeding with him alive. He goes out of his way to keep Hawke apart from his act. Pushes Hawke away even. Because he thinks Hawke wont see eye to eye with him.

That doesn't sound like someone who can't handle disagreement. Actually sounds like someone who loves and respects Hawke, no matter whether Hawke agrees or not with him.

The idea isn't that Anders didn't have love or respect or whatever for Hawke, it's that he didn't let those feelings dissuade him.  Nothing he felt towards Hawke, and nothing Hawke had to say was anywhere near as important to Anders as his little crusade.

You see, in Anders' mind, when it comes to Hawke, there are limits, things that are out of bounds.  But when it comes to his cause, there is no line he won't cross, and nothing is out of bounds.  Eventually those two ideas are going to conflict and Anders is going to cross a line Hawke isn't willing to.  (And, honestly, for people who are able to shrug off or even applaud Ander's Chantry bombing, I shudder to think what that line might be.)

Modifié par General User, 13 septembre 2012 - 03:09 .

[General User]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

General User wrote...

I was just thinking along these lines, and it occurs to me that Anders didn't really ask anyone else's permission to start this war. I can't imagine he's going to be looking to take anyone's orders when it comes to stopping.

The war was essentially going on behind closed doors for ages. Anders himself has been a part of the Mage Underground -- a coalition of Mages that fight the Templars and free Mages -- indicating that yes, people did believe fighting was necessary.

Really though, it wouldn't be wrong to label him a Resolutionist. By his actions, he did make himself one, but his reasons for what he did had less to do with simple... I don't want to use terrorism, but some other word. Essentially, the Resolutionists are too violent and, if Fenris is correct, too aligned with Tevinter -- which poses a serious problems.

Anders, by comparison, is more controlled. His version of being a Resolutionist is certainly better then the other version of being a Resolutionist, in which he's fighting for justice as opposed to being a powerful brigand that wants to incite fear amongst the populus and possibly reinstitute the Imperium.

The Resolutionists like the latter -- which I can only assume are the types we fight in Faith -- are part of the problem with granting more freedom, even in limited form, to Mages. Certainly, they were exacerbating the problems of Kirkwall, though they were not the source of it. That fell to Meredith.

Or something like that. I'm tired. Maybe someone else can make a more cohesive statement on what I'm trying to say.

Having previous associations with sympathetic groups which they then leave (for any number of reasons, but quite often because they feel the group they were associated with "wasn't going far enough") is actually pretty standard for lone-wolf terrorists like Anders.

[Xilizhra]

No, he can't. No matter where you go, you take yourself with you. Anders is obsessed with his cause, he could never give it up no matter where he was living.

All he has to do is win.

[esper]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't read the codex, as a rule, unless a particular entry catches my eye. If the information is important to the development of story or character, then I shouldn't have to dig for it. If Anders' control is slipping more and more in Act 3, then we should see his Jekyll-Hyde act more often than we do. Or at least someone should mention it.

I agree. I said the same thing on the first page. It actually doesn't make it believable for us to be told he's losing himself more and more, yet we only see it once per act -- and Act 3's is just if you're on the Rivalry path.

I have to accept that it happened though, whether we see it or not. I don't like how Bioware failed to show it, but it's just one of those things I have to begrudgingly accept.

It's just... not given its due.

I'm thirding this opinion and adding that I don¨t accept any of the book/comics/what have you, story-line as canon untill they are presented in the game.

If they want Asunder to be important, they have to add its story line to the game in some way, same with the silent grove or whatever the comic is called. If they want the event of the books/comics to matter, they have to present them in some form in the game universe again, untill they do, I don't accept them as part of the game universe, but as belonging in a different littarature universe which doesn't affect me in anyway. 

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...

No, he can't. No matter where you go, you take yourself with you. Anders is obsessed with his cause, he could never give it up no matter where he was living.

All he has to do is win.

After winning the fight against Ser Alrik, he almost kills a girl because she was, understandably, terrified of him.
He is, clearly, demented and dangerous.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No, he can't. No matter where you go, you take yourself with you. Anders is obsessed with his cause, he could never give it up no matter where he was living.

All he has to do is win.

After winning the fight against Ser Alrik, he almost kills a girl because she was, understandably, terrified of him.
He is, clearly, demented and dangerous.

That was just one battle, and not the war.

[MisterJB]

War against anything and everything Vengeance perceives as unjust like "insults" from terrified innocent girls.

[Xilizhra]

And he hasn't done anything comparable in three years.

[MisterJB]

Besides forcing Anders to destroy a building full of innocent people to incite a world war.
Considering that some of Vengeace's criterias are: "Called me Demon. Must be corrupted by templars. Murder justified." I don't trust its judgement.

Modifié par MisterJB, 13 septembre 2012 - 07:09 .

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Besides forcing Anders to destroy a building full of innocent people to incite a world war.
Considering that some of Vengeace's criterias are: "Called me Demon. Must be corrupted by templars. Murder justified." I don't trust its judgement.

That wasn't forced, Anders was in agreement.

[MisterJB]

If romanced through a Rivalry path, Hawke can almost convince Anders to give up his, then unknown, plan, at which point Vengeances forces itself into the conversation.

[Knight of Dane]

That's what he says.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

And he hasn't done anything comparable in three years.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's kinda what the thread is asking: if Anders flipping out and killing (bar Hawke's intervention) one innocent girl is not enough, how many would be? 

Modifié par General User, 13 septembre 2012 - 08:57 .