223 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

Having previous associations with sympathetic groups which they then leave (for any number of reasons, but quite often because they feel the group they were associated with "wasn't going far enough") is actually pretty standard for lone-wolf terrorists like Anders.

He didn't leave because he felt they weren't going far enough. He never felt that at all, really. He left because the Templars destroyed the Mage Underground, with what few people who remained having turned to blood magic to survive.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And he hasn't done anything comparable in three years.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's kinda what the thread is asking: if Anders flipping out and killing (bar Hawke's intervention) one innocent girl is not enough, how many would be? 

You may as well ask how many qunari relics Isabela would need to steal before it would be "enough."

[General User]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

General User wrote...

Having previous associations with sympathetic groups which they then leave (for any number of reasons, but quite often because they feel the group they were associated with "wasn't going far enough") is actually pretty standard for lone-wolf terrorists like Anders.

He didn't leave because he felt they weren't going far enough. He never felt that at all, really. He left because the Templars destroyed the Mage Underground, with what few people who remained having turned to blood magic to survive.

Like I said, there are many reasons lone-wolf terrorists like Anders leave the groups they belong to. But the mere existence of groups with aims or sympathies broadly aligned with Anders' is largely meaningless.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And he hasn't done anything comparable in three years.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's kinda what the thread is asking: if Anders flipping out and killing (bar Hawke's intervention) one innocent girl is not enough, how many would be? 

You may as well ask how many qunari relics Isabela would need to steal before it would be "enough."

Since Isabela eventually gave back that relic that would either be zero or one, depending on how you look at it.  Maybe you could rephrase the point you were trying to make?

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And he hasn't done anything comparable in three years.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's kinda what the thread is asking: if Anders flipping out and killing (bar Hawke's intervention) one innocent girl is not enough, how many would be? 

You may as well ask how many qunari relics Isabela would need to steal before it would be "enough."

Since Isabela eventually gave back that relic that would either be zero or one, depending on how you look at it.  Maybe you could rephrase the point you were trying to make?

My point being is that it's silly to automatically assume that one thing someone did will be repeated again unless there's an actual pattern of it. Which here, there isn't.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And he hasn't done anything comparable in three years.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's kinda what the thread is asking: if Anders flipping out and killing (bar Hawke's intervention) one innocent girl is not enough, how many would be? 

You may as well ask how many qunari relics Isabela would need to steal before it would be "enough."

Since Isabela eventually gave back that relic that would either be zero or one, depending on how you look at it.  Maybe you could rephrase the point you were trying to make?

My point being is that it's silly to automatically assume that one thing someone did will be repeated again unless there's an actual pattern of it. Which here, there isn't.

What are you talking about?  Anders entire character arc is how he slowly but surely loses himself to Vengeance.  His killing Ella is just the best example of what his losing that battle means for others.

Not only that but Isabela spent most of her adult life as a pirate, stealing stuff was kinda her MO.

Modifié par General User, 13 septembre 2012 - 10:57 .

[Renmiri1]

General User wrote...

Like I said, there are many reasons lone-wolf terrorists like Anders leave the groups they belong to. But the mere existence of groups with aims or sympathies broadly aligned with Anders' is largely meaningless.

I see why we differ so much on our view of Anders. I see no RL parallell and do not consider him real at all 

Seriously, what we see him doing is in context of a world where Hawke (or anyone) can kill people daily and still be considered an upstanding member of society. Life and death are cheap in Thedas and someone from Thedas klling a few more than his / her "daily allowed quota" for some flimsy reason isn't that abnormal.

By the same way my Warden never worried Zevran or Leliana would kill her in her sleep, I never worry that Anders will "lone-wolf" my Hawke in the back. Assassins are common and even respected in Thedas. Fenris kills his own sister. My Hawke kills a man in cold blood because he begs to die, to avoid him killing more elf children.

In that context, Ella and the Chantry bombing are a lot different than a bombing in RL Earth. I would never befriend or be involved with assassins, spies or terrorists here. I would also never be able to kill dragons and end blights here. What terrorism is here in RL  is irrelevant to Thedas. It is just not the same thing.

You may be unable to separate it, and is ok, it is your game and your story. But it just isn't the same for me and many others who realize it is just a game. 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 13 septembre 2012 - 11:26 .

[General User]

Renmiri1 wrote...

General User wrote...

Like I said, there are many reasons lone-wolf terrorists like Anders leave the groups they belong to. But the mere existence of groups with aims or sympathies broadly aligned with Anders' is largely meaningless.

I see why we differ so much on our view of Anders. I see no RL parallell and do not consider him real at all 

Seriously, what we see him doing is in context of a world where Hawke (or anyone) can kill people daily and still be considered an upstanding member of society. Life and death are cheap in Thedas and someone from Thedas klling a few more than his / her "daily allowed quota" for some flimsy reason isn't that abnormal.

By the same way my Warden never worried Zevran or Leliana would kill her in her sleep, I never worry that Anders will "lone-wolf" my Hawke in the back. Assassins are common and even respected in Thedas. Fenris kills his own sister. My Hawke kills a man in cold blood because he begs to die, to avoid him killing more elf children.

In that context, Ella and the Chantry bombing are a lot different than a bombing in RL Earth. I would never befriend or be involved with assassins, spies or terrorists here. I would also never be able to kill dragons and end blights here. What terrorism is here in RL  is irrelevant to Thedas. It is just not the same thing.

You may be unable to separate it, and is ok, it is your game and your story. But it just isn't the same for me and many others who realize it is just a game. 

That's a shame.  Good stories not only fire the imagination but illuminate the rest of the world.  If you either don't or can't make those sorts of intellectual and imaginative leaps then I really don't know what to tell you, other than that you're missing out.

Honestly though, as long as you're willing to admit that, by any serious and/or critical standard, Anders was a monster, that's good enough for me.  And to think, you didn't think I'd ever be able to convince you.

Modifié par General User, 13 septembre 2012 - 11:54 .

[LobselVith8]

Renmiri1 wrote...

He actually loses himself pretty badly on the Short Story, which takes place right after he merges with Justice. If you read it you will think that the stuff with Ella is just playing with kittens!

http://dragonage.bio...racters/anders/

Read it and you see that during the episode with Ella Anders is holding Justice back. During the entire length of DA2 he holds Justice back, even on Act 3.

Aside from the short story making little to no sense in the context of the actual storyline, Anders seems to struggle for control himself during the Rivalry storyline, while he seems to be more coherent and at peace with his symbiosis with Justice during the Friendship storyline.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 13 septembre 2012 - 11:59 .

[Renmiri1]

[quote]General User wrote...
That's a shame.  Good stories not only fire the imagination but illuminate the rest of the world.  If you either don't or can't make those sorts of intellectual and imaginative leaps then I really don't know what to tell you, other than that you're missing out.

Honestly though, as long as you're willing to admit that, by any serious and/or critical standard, Anders was a monster, that's good enough for me.  And to think, you didn't think I'd ever be able to convince you.
[/quote]

You never had to convince me terrorism is bad, you just misunderstood which RL parallel I have been making.

To me Anders in Thedas is paralel to bipolar people on RL Earth. I have someone I care about who is bipolar, and I have never felt threatened by that person. But I have seen erratic behaviors and crisis. So in my Hawke, I play someone like us who have a loved one that can go "wacko" sometimes. Is not an easy life and perhaps Hawke would have been better just telling Anders to GTFO as she met him but for some of us that was never a choice.

[quote]silver-crescent wrote...

 ATTN Fanders, here's what you all have been waiting for:

What I asked:

[quote]
Jennifer Hepler says
"As the writer of Anders, and many other aspects of DAII, I found this an interesting and thoughtful examination of what we tried to do with the game. I do find it odd, though, that Anders is not discussed in regards to the treatment of the mentally ill. For me, that is primarily what his relationship is about — the difficulties of loving and trying to help someone who struggles with a part of himself that he cannot control and may never be able to control. It is certainly the experience I drew from when writing him, and I think it uses the fantasy setting in the way I most prefer to see — providing a magical metaphor for exploring real-world problems. To me, this is the central feature of his character — not whether he is gay or straight, but the inner demons (personified as Justice/Vengeance), which both he and you, as his lover, must struggle against every day." [/quote]

I hadn't really thought of Justice/Vengeance as being an allegory to mental instability, or of there being much of a daily struggle, from playing the game (on a friendship path), save for the last codex entry. But I suppose it comes closest to a case of bipolarity/manic depression? 

Anyway, this is a very confusing thing for me, because even if it's possible to draw real world parallels, things are ultimately quite different due to the actual situation and the fact that it's fantasy setting. 

Which makes me wonder, is Justice's existence the cause of the issue, or is it his influence? Or is Justice just part of it? 

And how does the situation progress in regards of the friendship/rivalry paths? I remember reading that the friendship path leads to Anders/Justice concordance, while the rivalry path leads to further dissonance. The 2 possible romance endings are quite different. Hopeful and seemingly at peace, but still very driven Anders vs out of control/wanting to die and regretful Anders. 

Does friendship path attenuate/prevent the issues, given how they "merge", so there's less of a conflict? Do things just stabilize? Is it a downward spiral either way? Is it meant to be left to the player's interpretation? Or should we just wait and see? 

 [quote]
Jennifer Hepler's reply:

[quote]I'm glad you enjoyed the character so much. Obviously, in a fantasy setting the real world metaphors will never be exact, but I certainly always thought of Anders as being essentially bipolar and I tried to use as much real world psychology as I could (giving away of personal possessions before planning to commit suicide, etc.). I think his romance captures a lot of the joy and pain of dating someone bipolar -- he feels everything in a big way, so his love is huge and all-encompassing, as are his hates, including his self-loathing. It takes work to maintain a relationship with him, and ultimately, Hawke has to decide if it's worth it, knowing that these are burdens that will always haunt them. 

As far as friendship and rivalry, to me, the friendship path is about supporting Anders in his decisions, both to merge with Justice and everything that stems from that. Therefore, he is generally happier (more manic), and more convinced of his delusions, but is arguably a worse person (more willing to do bad things). The rivalry path is about making him see the error of his ways, so he ends up suffering more and tending more to the depressive side, but is arguably a better person who wants to make up for what he's done. Which is the "right" way is very much up to the individual player.[/quote]


[/quote] 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 14 septembre 2012 - 12:52 .

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

And you know, if I had just saved someone from lobotomy and gangrape, only to have them turn around and call me nasty names, I'd be pissed off too.

From this and other posts on the same subject, you've made your feelings on Ella's reaction to Justice clear, and it is an extremely unreasonable position to take on someone who has just been through a serious trauma.  I usually agree with your posts, but your total lack of empathy for an almost-victim of a horrific crime is really disappointing.

I can understand that you'd not appreciate being called names after rescuing someone from being psychically lobotomized and gangraped.  However...that person just narrowly escaped being lobotomized and gangraped, hello?  And a big scary person with glowing eyes and an unnatural voice is standing over them with their rageface on.  You can't seriously expect such a person not to be scared ****less and react accordingly.  Especially since in such a terrifying situation, someone in Ella's position may not be fully cognizant of her surroundings enough to be aware of the details.  They might have seen a bloody fight take place, but that doesn't mean they'll understand that the new people on the scene were fighting to save her life. 

I'm being ever-so-slightly facetious.

I understand perfectly well that Ella is traumatised and not thinking clearly. She's also a fictional character, so I don't think I should be required to treat her like srs bsns all the time. For the five minutes she's onscreen, I find her annoying, so I'm not inclined to be kind.

I find it slightly ironic that people generally accuse me of being insensitive to her situation, but they're extremely insensitive to Anders: "He's menatally ill! Kill him!"

You'll not hear that crap from me, rest assured.  I actually AGREE with Anders, and I think what he did was completely justified, because I see Grand Cleric Elthina and the Chantry both as legitimate military targets.  But from both personal and professional reasons you'll NEVER hear me make any suggestion toward killing someone for being mentally ill.  That's just damned unconscionable.

[Urzon]

Silfren wrote...

You'll not hear that crap from me, rest assured.  I actually AGREE with Anders, and I think what he did was completely justified, because I see Grand Cleric Elthina and the Chantry both as legitimate military targets.  But from both personal and professional reasons you'll NEVER hear me make any suggestion toward killing someone for being mentally ill.  That's just damned unconscionable.

I find these fascinating...

It's not ok to kill a mentally ill person after he bombed a place that is, of the opinion (keyword) of some, a supposedly evil organization, and he would most likely do it again...

But, it is ok to kill people that are in that organization, even though they were raised from birth in it (like most of the population), and their parents most likely forced them to join? Not to mention, most people in that organization have nothing to do with the governing of it, and they only joined (or were made to) to find a better life, peace, and learning.

[Plaintiff]

Urzon wrote...

Silfren wrote...

You'll not hear that crap from me, rest assured.  I actually AGREE with Anders, and I think what he did was completely justified, because I see Grand Cleric Elthina and the Chantry both as legitimate military targets.  But from both personal and professional reasons you'll NEVER hear me make any suggestion toward killing someone for being mentally ill.  That's just damned unconscionable.

I find these fascinating...

It's not ok to kill a mentally ill person after he bombed a place that is, of the opinion (keyword) of some, a supposedly evil organization, and he would most likely do it again...

But, it is ok to kill people that are in that organization, even though they were raised from birth in it (like most of the population), and their parents most likely forced them to join? Not to mention, most people in that organization have nothing to do with the governing of it, and they only joined (or were made to) to find a better life, peace, and learning.

The Chantry is a legitimate military target, the motivations of the individuals in there are of no consequence.

Plenty of people join the army because of family tradition, or because it will pay for a college education, or because the law of their country requires it, but that doesn't make military bases any less legitimate targets.

I don't see how anything justifies willingly joining an organization that is culpable in slavery, anyway.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 14 septembre 2012 - 04:46 .

[dragonflight288]

And at the time of the Anders explosion, the Templars were the military arm of the Chantry. The controlled an army.

It may have been full of priests, but the Grand Cleric did have full authority over Meredith, even if it wasn't exercised and that authority became obese.

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...

Urzon wrote...

I find these fascinating...

It's not ok to kill a mentally ill person after he bombed a place that is, of the opinion (keyword) of some, a supposedly evil organization, and he would most likely do it again...

But, it is ok to kill people that are in that organization, even though they were raised from birth in it (like most of the population), and their parents most likely forced them to join? Not to mention, most people in that organization have nothing to do with the governing of it, and they only joined (or were made to) to find a better life, peace, and learning.

The Chantry is a legitimate military target, the motivations of the individuals in there are of no consequence.

Plenty of people join the army because of family tradition, or because it will pay for a college education, or because the law of their country requires it, but that doesn't make military bases any less legitimate targets.

I don't see how anything justifies willingly joining an organization that is culpable in slavery, anyway.

Urzon isn't talking about (correct me if I'm wrong Uzon) members of an army.  He's talking about members of a religion.  He's talking about the average everyday schmoe who for one reason or another subscribes to the Andrastean religion.  There's a difference.

Silfren wrote...

You'll not hear that crap from me, rest
assured.  I actually AGREE with Anders, and I think what he did was
completely justified, because I see Grand Cleric Elthina and the Chantry
both as legitimate military targets.  But from both personal and
professional reasons you'll NEVER hear me make any suggestion toward
killing someone for being mentally ill.  That's just damned
unconscionable.

How about if that mental illness causes them to routinely kill innocent people when it takes effect?  Like the title of the question suggests:  How many times do you let this happen before you step up and say "This has to end, once and for all."

...and I have to disagree on the whole "Valid Military Target" idea.  It's not a valid military target, it's a place of worship.  No military functions are held there.  Grand Cleric Elthina isn't even the military mind behind the Templar Order in Kirkwall.  She's a Grand Cleric.  She doesn't direct the Order, Knight-Commander Meredith does.  Anders targeted her and the Chantry because she was actively involved in trying to keep the peace between Meredith and Anders.  A peace Anders didn't want because he's an extremist.

I also disagree that it matters.  Anders isn't a general, he's not a military mind, he wasn't appointed by anyone, not even the mages underground.  He's a lone gunman who acted more or less alone based of intel he got while traveling around with Hawke. 

dragonflight288 wrote...

And at the time of the Anders explosion, the Templars were the military arm of the Chantry. The controlled an army.

It
may have been full of priests, but the Grand Cleric did have full
authority over Meredith, even if it wasn't exercised and that authority
became obese.

Obese?

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 14 septembre 2012 - 05:36 .

[Urzon]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Chantry is a legitimate military target, the motivations of the individuals in there are of no consequence.

Plenty of people join the army because of family tradition, or because it will pay for a college education, or because the law of their country requires it, but that doesn't make military bases any less legitimate targets.

I don't see how anything justifies willingly joining an organization that is culpable in slavery, anyway.

Because the Chantry does alot more then persecute mages?

Everyone seems to think thats all they do with their time. I'm sure people don't like to hear it, but the Chantry does actually do good things *gasp* for the community. They provide guidance, help the poor, run orphanages, provide an easy way for the common folk to list jobs that need to be done, shelter, support, and an education to people that otherwise couldn't afford if they join. Where people like Brother Genitivi, Sister Petrine, and many other scholars came from.

Why can't people join for those reason?

And yes, some people are forced to join the Chantry. Parents that can't raise another child, or they simple want the child to have a better life; they give the child to the Chantry. There is a conversation about this with Wynne in DAO. She wasn't handling being at the Circle well, so she went to the Chantry. There, she talked with a Mother (or Cleric? can't remember) and bonded over simular circumstances. Wynne didn't want to be a mage, and the Mother didn't want to be put into the Chantry when she was young. They both grew into their lives, and grew to love them over time though.

@Lazy Jer

Yes, thats who I was talking about.

Modifié par Urzon, 14 septembre 2012 - 05:40 .

[Plaintiff]

Lazy Jer wrote...
Urzon isn't talking about (correct me if I'm wrong Uzon) members of an army.  He's talking about members of a religion.  He's talking about the average everyday schmoe who for one reason or another subscribes to the Andrastean religion.  There's a difference.

A religion that commands an army. It's a valid military target.

The Chantry is not "just a religion", it is the major governing authority in Thedas, more powerful than any of the state leaders in the countries where it has a presence.

If you're an "average everyday schmoe" who subscribes to an organisation that endorses violent conquest and slavery, then you deserve anything bad that happens to you.

...and I have to disagree on the whole "Valid Military Target" idea.  It's not a valid military target, it's a place of worship.  No military functions are held there.  Grand Cleric Elthina isn't even the military mind behind the Templar Order in Kirkwall.  She's a Grand Cleric.  She doesn't direct the Order, Knight-Commander Meredith does.

Elthina absolutely does direct the Order. Her authority supercedes Meredith's, if she would ever actually just use it. The Templar Order is absolutely bound up in the Chantry, and to say otherwise is just sheer falsehood. The Chantry founded the order, and drew up the laws that govern its behaviour, and when a high-ranking templar such as Meredith exceeds the bounds of those laws, they answer to the Grand Cleric, not the other way around.

The military doesn't have to actually be in attendance at a place in order for that place to classify as a valid military target. The White House is a valid military target, and the bulk of its staff are pencil pushers and cleaners. Communications towers are valid military targets in a time of war, so are hospitals.

Anders targeted her and the Chantry because she was actively involved in trying to keep the peace between Meredith and Anders.  A peace Anders didn't want because he's an extremist.

A peace that never existed. Any "peace" that is predicated on the imprisonment and violent subjugation of others is an illusion, and nothing more.

Anders seeing the situation as unconscienable doesn't mean he's an extremist. It means he has half a brain.

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...

A peace that never existed. Any "peace" that is predicated on the imprisonment and violent subjugation of others is an illusion, and nothing more.

Anders seeing the situation as unconscienable doesn't mean he's an extremist. It means he has half a brain.

Too bad he didn't have a whole one.  There are plenty of people fighting for mage freedom that don't manage to blow up a building and put an entire city at risk of burning down.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:06 .

[Plaintiff]

Urzon wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Chantry is a legitimate military target, the motivations of the individuals in there are of no consequence.

Plenty of people join the army because of family tradition, or because it will pay for a college education, or because the law of their country requires it, but that doesn't make military bases any less legitimate targets.

I don't see how anything justifies willingly joining an organization that is culpable in slavery, anyway.

Because the Chantry does alot more then persecute mages?

Everyone seems to think thats all they do with their time. I'm sure people don't like to hear it, but the Chantry does actually do good things *gasp* for the community. They provide guidance, help the poor, run orphanages, provide an easy way for the common folk to list jobs that need to be done, shelter, support, and an education to people that otherwise couldn't afford if they join. Where people like Brother Genitivi, Sister Petrine, and many other scholars came from.

Why can't people join for those reason?

Sorry, there's not enough lipstick in the world for that pig.

"The community" only consists of people that the Chantry allows in. IE; not mages, not Dalish elves, not anyone who expresses belief in a deity other than the maker.

Looking out for your own people does not and should not earn you any kudos. Hitler was nice to the people who fit into his Aryan ideal, but that doesn't make him any less of a complete douchebag. Bullies are nice to the people they consider friends (usually other bullies), but that does not cancel out the fact that they are bullies.

What you describe is basic decency, and the very bare minimum of what I would expect from any governing authority, so no, I'm not exactly in awe.

People can join the Chantry for whatever reason they want. Doing so simply makes them culpable in slavery. Their personal motivations are irrelevent.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 14 septembre 2012 - 06:16 .

[Plaintiff]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

A peace that never existed. Any "peace" that is predicated on the imprisonment and violent subjugation of others is an illusion, and nothing more.

Anders seeing the situation as unconscienable doesn't mean he's an extremist. It means he has half a brain.

Too bad he didn't have a whole one.  There are plenty of people fighting for mage freedom that don't manage to blow up a building and put an entire city at risk of burning down.

And they were doing really well, too. Except wait, oh no, they made next to no progress over the course of centuries.

[Lazy Jer]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

A religion that commands an army. It's a valid military target.

The Chantry is not "just a religion", it is the major governing authority in Thedas, more powerful than any of the state leaders in the countries where it has a presence.

If you're an "average everyday schmoe" who subscribes to an organisation that endorses violent conquest and slavery, then you deserve anything bad that happens to you.[/quote]

Where does it endorse that?  Are you saying that church meetings begin with a "Who are we going to violently subjugate today?"[quote]
[/quote][quote] Elthina absolutely does direct the Order. Her authority supercedes Meredith's, if she would ever actually just use it. The Templar Order is absolutely bound up in the Chantry, and to say otherwise is just sheer falsehood. The Chantry founded the order, and drew up the laws that govern its behaviour, and when a high-ranking templar such as Meredith exceeds the bounds of those laws, they answer to the Grand Cleric, not the other way around.

The military doesn't have to actually be in attendance at a place in order for that place to classify as a valid military target. The White House is a valid military target, and the bulk of its staff are pencil pushers and cleaners. Communications towers are valid military targets in a time of war, so are hospitals.[/quote]

All of this is completely meaningless.  No one elected Anders as a general or a leader of people.  He was acting on his own half-crazed volition.

[quote]Anders targeted her and the Chantry because she was actively involved in trying to keep the peace between Meredith and Anders.  A peace Anders didn't want because he's an extremist.[/quote]
A peace that never existed. Any "peace" that is predicated on the imprisonment and violent subjugation of others is an illusion, and nothing more.[/quote]

I'm not talking about peace between mage and templar, I'm talking about the peace between Meredith and Orsino.  They were both pushing each other's rage button and the victims were the citizens or Kirkwall either being busted in on by Templars or bleeding in the streets because of all the blood mages.  She was trying to talk them down.  You say she didn't do anything, I say she did a heck of a lot more then people give her credit for.

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...
And they were doing really well, too. Except wait, oh no, they made next to no progress over the course of centuries.

They made a lot more progress then Anders did.  Anders just made life worse.

[Plaintiff]

Lazy Jer wrote...
Where does it endorse that?  Are you saying that church meetings begin with a "Who are we going to violently subjugate today?"

It endorses violent conquest every time that it calls and leads an exalted march. It endorses subjugation every day that it does not abolish the Circle system.

All of this is completely meaningless.  No one elected Anders as a general or a leader of people.  He was acting on his own half-crazed volition.

It wouldn't matter if Anders was a leader of people because leaders of mages have no authority. The Chantry does not and will never recognize any opposition as legitimate. It makes no difference if Anders was sane and had an army of supporters, by opposing Chantry doctrine, his position is discredited by default.

Why should Anders need to be elected? Why should he not declare war of his own volition? He never claims to represent any mage other than himself.

I'm not talking about peace between mage and templar, I'm talking about the peace between Meredith and Orsino.

A peace predicated on the slavery of others. Meredith is a Templar and Orsino is a mage. It's the exact same situation, simply in microcosm. 

They were both pushing each other's rage button and the victims were the citizens or Kirkwall either being busted in on by Templars or bleeding in the streets because of all the blood mages.  She was trying to talk them down.  You say she didn't do anything, I say she did a heck of a lot more then people give her credit for.

She didn't do anything of value. Every "peace talk" and "compromise" resulted in Meredith being granted concessions while Orsino was forced to make sacrifices.

At best, Elthina slowed the decay when she had the means to put a stop to it permanently. If she was too chicken to oppose Meredith by herself, she could've called for aid. She had a prime opportunity when Leliana came to Kirkwall, or she could've written to the Divine any goddamn time she wanted. Instead, she has Hawke and Sebastian lie blatantly about the situation on her behalf.

[Plaintiff]

Lazy Jer wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
And they were doing really well, too. Except wait, oh no, they made next to no progress over the course of centuries.

They made a lot more progress then Anders did.  Anders just made life worse.

What "progress" was made? How is open war "worse" than a millenium of slavery?

[Urzon]

Plaintiff wrote...

People can join the Chantry for whatever reason they want. Doing so simply makes them culpable in slavery. Their personal motivations are irrelevent.

So, let me get this straight...

If you freely join an organization, you are culpable for any and all crimes that organization has commited in the past, present, and future... as long as you live?

Am I getting that right? Because, that is what i'm getting out of that statement, but that can't be right. That is like saying all registered voters, by freely taking part in the governmental process by joining it, are guilty of any crimes the US has done, doing, or will do in the future.

It doesn't really work that way.