223 réponses à ce sujet

[Lazy Jer]

Plaintiff wrote...

All of this is completely meaningless.  No one elected Anders as a general or a leader of people.  He was acting on his own half-crazed volition.

It wouldn't matter if Anders was a leader of people because leaders of mages have no authority. The Chantry does not and will never recognize any opposition as legitimate. It makes no difference if Anders was sane and had an army of supporters, by opposing Chantry doctrine, his position is discredited by default.

Why should Anders need to be elected? Why should he not declare war of his own volition? He never claims to represent any mage other than himself.

Because he's attempting to start a war that involves the mages.  He's attempting to make decisions that effect the lives of at leads hundreds if not thousands of mages.  Decisions like that, you'd better believe he needs to be elected.  The Chantry or the Order's approval isn't necessary.  The mages approval is very necessary.  The leader of the Libertarian Frat, the leader of the Aequetarians, etc.  People that have had power put in their hands because a large group of the people they're attempting to lead respect them and respect their decisions.  Anders isn't.

I'm not talking about peace between mage and templar, I'm talking about the peace between Meredith and Orsino.

They were both pushing each other's rage button and the victims were the citizens or Kirkwall either being busted in on by Templars or bleeding in the streets because of all the blood mages.  She was trying to talk them down.  You say she didn't do anything, I say she did a heck of a lot more then people give her credit for.

She didn't do anything of value. Every "peace talk" and "compromise" resulted in Meredith being granted concessions while Orsino was forced to make sacrifices.

Concessions?  You mean like when she said "Go ahead, annul the sons of nugs."  Oh wait...she didn't do that.  Since the transcripts of the meetings aren't online anywhere, you really can't say what was said in them.

At best, Elthina slowed the decay when she had the means to put a stop to it permanently. If she was too chicken to oppose Meredith by herself, she could've called for aid. She had a prime opportunity when Leliana came to Kirkwall, or she could've written to the Divine any goddamn time she wanted. Instead, she has Hawke and Sebastian lie blatantly about the situation on her behalf.

Because she was afraid that adding more templars to the mix might exacerbate the problem.  She made a judgment call.  What if the divine sent the the Lord Seeker from Assunder into Kirkwall to intervene?  She was trying to solve the problem internally through mediation before resorting to Chantry intervention.

[SirGladiator]

That whole thing with Ella was pretty terrible, it really showed what kind of a monster that Anders/Justice had become, which is weird because separately both had been 'good' in the DAO Expansion, but here we see him almost killing an innocent girl, who was the victim of an evil dude that you had just saved her from, simply because she's scared of him. It makes you think that he was never really all about 'helping mages' at all, just all about slaughter, certainly those were his actions in the end. The innocent girl is a mage, and he would be quite happy to kill her if you don't stop him, and he doesn't even get to make some kind of grand 'political statement' in killing her like he does in act 3, he just wants to kill because he wants to kill. I really liked Justice in the DAO Expansion, I guess its a lesson in never letting a spirit take control of a human being, he just went nuts, evil nuts.

[Lazy Jer]

SirGladiator wrote...

...he just wants to kill because he wants to kill. I really liked Justice in the DAO Expansion, I guess its a lesson in never letting a spirit take control of a human being, he just went nuts, evil nuts.

Weeeeelllll...let's not make Justice/Anders out to be worse then they really are.  If either of them were into killing for killings' sake there's plenty of loose justification for it in Darktown.  Anderjustice wanted to kill because he was delusional and thought Ella was a demon, or in legue with them.  It's still bad, just not "Chaotic Evil Let's wipe out some sentient beings" kind of bad.

[Plaintiff]

Urzon wrote...
If you freely join an organization, you are culpable for any and all crimes that organization has commited in the past, present, and future... as long as you live?

Assuming these crimes are common knowledge? Yes, you are culpable for any crimes committed during your membership. Not past crimes, and not any crimes that occur after you leave.

If you knowingly joined a gang of rapists, you would be culpable in any rapes that occured during your membership, even if you never partook yourself, because you knew the activity was occuring (possibly even witnessed it first hand) and made no effort to stop it. In fact, by joining the group, you are supporting their doctrine, strengthening their influence, and empowering them to commit further rapes. In our modern legal parlance, you are an accessory to the rape.

If you leave the group, and begin to actively oppose them (ie, contact the police), then you may yet be redeemed. Keran and Thrask are good men, and when they are awakened to the inherent injustice of the Circle system, they rebel against it. They redeem themselves.

Am I getting that right? Because, that is what i'm getting out of that statement, but that can't be right. That is like saying all registered voters, by freely taking part in the governmental process by joining it, are guilty of any crimes the US has done, doing, or will do in the future.

It doesn't really work that way.

You're right, it doesn't work that way. What you just described is not a comparable situation at all.

The Chantry is not a nation, it is an organisation which you have to willingly join. The Chantry raises orphans, but the orphans are not forced to join the templar order or the priesthood. They can leave and lead whatever life they choose, unless of course it turns out they're mages, in which case it's off to the gilded cage. Simply being raised by the Chantry doesn't make you part of it any more than being raised by racist parents automatically makes you a racist.

When you vote for a president, you have no way of knowing what travesties, if any, they will commit while in office. If they commit a travesty, then you can withdraw your support, or voice your opposition to those actions through various channels.

If instead, you choose to support the decision to commit that travesty, or if you knowingly vote for a president who supports bigotry, then yes, you are culpable in that travesty and/or bigotry, because you allow it to continue.

[nightscrawl]

Renmiri1 wrote...

To me Anders in Thedas is paralel to bipolar people on RL Earth. I have someone I care about who is bipolar, and I have never felt threatened by that person. But I have seen erratic behaviors and crisis. So in my Hawke, I play someone like us who have a loved one that can go "wacko" sometimes. Is not an easy life and perhaps Hawke would have been better just telling Anders to GTFO as she met him but for some of us that was never a choice.

silver-crescent wrote...

<huge snip>

 

While I find what Jennifer says there to be very interesting, since she wrote Anders, I find it hard to make similar connections as the player. I suppose the reason is because I played DAA, I've met Justice (the original Fade persona), and he is very real to me. So in that sense I can never think of it like a mental illness, even though it manifests itself as such re: Anders's behavior, because I know that Justice actually exists, which is unlike real life where someone's delusions do NOT exist. However, I can appreciate that she used those real life sources to draw from.

That said, I do have a minor issue with the following...

As far as friendship and rivalry, to me, the friendship path is about supporting Anders in his decisions, both to merge with Justice and everything that stems from that. Therefore, he is generally happier (more manic), and more convinced of his delusions, but is arguably a worse person (more willing to do bad things). The rivalry path is about making him see the error of his ways, so he ends up suffering more and tending more to the depressive side, but is arguably a better person who wants to make up for what he's done. Which is the "right" way is very much up to the individual player.

The limitations of the F/R system are such that you can NOT separate a companion's personal issues from their opinions. Although you are allowed such in the dialogue, the game does not register that you support mages but are against Anders merging with Justice. Those are two, really huge, separate issues. I don't know, perhaps she is referring to Anders merging everything together in his mind when she says "he feels everything in a big way, so his love is huge and all-encompassing, as are his hates, including his self-loathing." I can understand that if it applied to Anders only, but since it is a game system issue, it applies to everyone, and fortunately it happens to coincide with her method for defining Anders's personality.

A writer can have all of the interesting ideas in the world, but the game systems MUST support the implementation of those ideas or they won't be presented to the player in the proper way.


I also want to address her statement that "Which is the 'right' way is very much up to the individual player." As she described each path in the above paragraph, it seems to me that the friendship path is more self-serving. Whether because you are in a romance with Anders or because you agree with him vis-a-vis mage issues, the friendship path benefits you, the player. The rivalry path on the other hand, as she writes, is about "making him see the error of his ways" (or trying to, from Hawke's viewpoint), to benefit society as a whole; whether that is because you think he is dangerous because of the Justice merger, or because you don't think that such extreme actions are necessary regarding mage oppression.

Finally, with that way that she describes him, I really don't see how a rival Anders romance is even remotely possible, particularly since DA2 takes place over so many years. An initial love/hate passionate fling I could see, but not long term. It just seems to me that everything that Anders is would rebel against such a relationship.

[Urzon]

Plaintiff wrote...

Assuming these crimes are common knowledge? Yes, you are culpable for any crimes committed during your membership. Not past crimes, and not any crimes that occur after you leave.

If you knowingly joined a gang of rapists, you would be culpable in any rapes that occured during your membership, even if you never partook yourself, because you knew the activity was occuring (possibly even witnessed it first hand) and made no effort to stop it. In fact, by joining the group, you are supporting their doctrine, strengthening their influence, and empowering them to commit further rapes. In our modern legal parlance, you are an accessory to the rape.

If you leave the group, and begin to actively oppose them (ie, contact the police), then you may yet be redeemed. Keran and Thrask are good men, and when they are awakened to the inherent injustice of the Circle system, they rebel against it. They redeem themselves.

The thing is though, that for people of Thedas,  mages being put into the Circle ISN'T a crime, since it isn't because it's required by law, and they don't see it has "enslavement". Heck, most of the moderate mage supports here support the Circle. They just don't support the Chantry and Templar complete oversight and control of it.

Wonderful job comparing members of the Chantry to a gang of rapists! I got a question though. Do all the members of the Chantry (Divine all the way down to the lowly Ley Sisters) know how only a small portion of the templars treat the mages? From my understanding, the regular Chantry members rarely leave their chantry, and if they do; it is only to the surrounding area for odd jobs.

Maybe they do an annual outing to the Circle, just to see just how hard they are oppressing the mages! Which is kinda hard to fit in, since they spend most of their day in prayer, meditation, and reading the Chant of Light.

On a lighter note, neither Keran or Thrask rebelled against the Chantry, Templars, or Circle system. They simply rebelled against Meredith. So the people you count as "redeemed" only wanted to get rid of the bad guy, and they would then return to their templar duties in the Circle. You know, back to enslaving the mages.

You're right, it doesn't work that way. What you just described is not a comparable situation at all.

The Chantry is not a nation, it is an organisation which you have to willingly join. The Chantry raises orphans, but the orphans are not forced to join the templar order or the priesthood. They can leave and lead whatever life they choose, unless of course it turns out they're mages, in which case it's off to the gilded cage. Simply being raised by the Chantry doesn't make you part of it any more than being raised by racist parents automatically makes you a racist.

When you vote for a president, you have no way of knowing what travesties, if any, they will commit while in office. If they commit a travesty, then you can withdraw your support, or voice your opposition to those actions through various channels.

If instead, you choose to support the decision to commit that travesty, or if you knowingly vote for a president who supports bigotry, then yes, you are culpable in that travesty and/or bigotry, because you allow it to continue.

A government is an organization. It is a group of people either elected or hired to help represent our voice when governing our lives. The US government (and any other governments) is simply a huge organization made up of many smaller ones, to help manage everything.  We are born into that organization, and we have rights for being members (freedom of speak, etc.). What we now consider human rights, since we all decided that they should apply to everyone. While the US government doesn't force people to join it and the collective decision making, they still require you to pay money back into the organization (ie. taxes). They then use that money to carry on its services to its member, like orphanages, education in the way of schools, an active army for protection, and keeping alert for possible dangers.

...That sure does sound familar. Almost like something the Chantry does.

The only difference between the Chantry and any other governmental organization in Thedas is, simply the Chantry doesn't have borders. The average people in any country in Thedas doesn't have a voice in who should rule, just like the average Chantry member. The kings are ruled either by blood or influence, and the Chantry's Divines and Grand Clerics are choosen by successors. If there is no successor, they highest ranking members, either nobles or Mothers, decide who should rule them next.

[nightscrawl]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Chantry is not a nation, it is an organisation which you have to willingly join.

OK... I hate to raise this issue, but it is a real life parallel for the Chantry, and I think you will see my point after I explain further.

Initially, I will state that religious organizations, including the fictitious Chantry, usually have some good things in common: they do charitable works, they are institutions built from the communities they serve and allow members of those communities to have support (mental, emotional). Whether you believe in a God or are an Athiest, I think that it should be stated that there is some community value in the church (whatever church that may be).

The homeless person who was served at a soup kitchen, the child in the orphanage, or the sick person in the hospital, likely doesn't know about whatever intolerant thing the church they are recieving help from has done. They only know they were helped, and to them it was a good thing.

I recently read an article about Hatian earthquake recovery. In it they mentioned a couple of smallish missionary groups (one is based out of the USA state of Georgia) who had been in Haiti for over 20 years. Those two small groups have done a tremendous amount to successfully help people get good housing than a lot of the other outside groups, their millions of dollars, and their fleeting presence. The reason those groups were able to be successful was because they already had a foothold in Haiti and they knew what they would have to do to get things accomplished.

That is only one small example of the helpful power of faith-based organizations.


Now that that is out of the way...

The comparison with a religious organization/institution and atrocities can be made by using the Catholic Church and their high-level cover-up of their pedophile priests. While all of these horrible incidents were going on, and since they have happend, there were many millions of people helped though the Catholic Church's charitable works. In addition, there were those who joined the church to serve their faith and to help people using the wide-reaching influential arm (including the money that comes with it, which should not be ignored, all charities need money) of the Church.

Yes, you can say that a person who wants to help others has other options. However, churches have been operating in communities and around the world for centuries. They are well-known, highly influential, and trusted by ordinary people. A woman might be able to help a lot more people by joining the Catholic Church as a nun than by joining a smaller organization or trying to form one herself. There is also the faith aspect and everything that that brings with it.

Here is the question: with all of that, do you think that those people who joined the Catholic Church after these incidents were made known, those individuals who continued to tithe, those who donated to their charities, are tacitly endorsing those actions of the pedophile priests and the following cover-up?

When thinking about the answer, you must remember that people look at faith-based organizations differently than your average organization. While a person who gives to the Red Cross and a person who gives to the Catholic Church might have the same goal in mind (charitable giving), the faith component adds something to the donation to the church. Make no mistake, many Catholics struggled (within themselves) with their church when this was revealed.

Catholics have certain tenets of their faith which make them different from Protestants, although they are both Christians. Even if a person hates what their church (the institution) has done, they are not going to stop being Catholic if they continue to believe those same things.

You can apply the same principle to the Chantry and Andrastianity. Members of the Chantry are Andrastian, but not all Andrastians are part of the Chantry.


I will close by stating that this was NOT intended to start a discussion about the Cathoic Church, their faith, their cover-up or anything of the kind. I felt that, rather that using some off the wall example or an odd analogy that doesn't really apply, a real life, accurate example would serve best to draw the comparison with the fictitious Chantry, especially since I felt that the religious aspect of it was important.

[Plaintiff]

Urzon wrote...

The thing is though, that for people of Thedas,  mages being put into the Circle ISN'T a crime, since it isn't because it's required by law, and they don't see it has "enslavement". Heck, most of the moderate mage supports here support the Circle. They just don't support the Chantry and Templar complete oversight and control of it.

I never said it was a crime, I was using analogy. It ought to be a crime, however, and the law is clearly unjust.

Wonderful job comparing members of the Chantry to a gang of rapists! I got a question though. Do all the members of the Chantry (Divine all the way down to the lowly Ley Sisters) know how only a small portion of the templars treat the mages? From my understanding, the regular Chantry members rarely leave their chantry, and if they do; it is only to the surrounding area for odd jobs.

Again, that's an analogy. I was not saying that all templars are rapists. Some are, but that's irrelevent to the fact that the circle system is inherently abusive and unjust.

Maybe they do an annual outing to the Circle, just to see just how hard they are oppressing the mages! Which is kinda hard to fit in, since they spend most of their day in prayer, meditation, and reading the Chant of Light.

It doesn't matter if they're unaware of the specific goings-on of each individual system. They know how the system works in broad terms, and that should be enough to understand that it is unjust.

On a lighter note, neither Keran or Thrask rebelled against the Chantry, Templars, or Circle system. They simply rebelled against Meredith. So the people you count as "redeemed" only wanted to get rid of the bad guy, and they would then return to their templar duties in the Circle. You know, back to enslaving the mages.

You may be right. In which case, screw them. They can burn.

A government is an organization. It is a group of people either elected or hired to help represent our voice when governing our lives. The US government (and any other governments) is simply a huge organization made up of many smaller ones, to help manage everything.  We are born into that organization, and we have rights for being members (freedom of speak, etc.). What we now consider human rights, since we all decided that they should apply to everyone. While the US government doesn't force people to join it and the collective decision making, they still require you to pay money back into the organization (ie. taxes). They then use that money to carry on its services to its member, like orphanages, education in the way of schools, an active army for protection, and keeping alert for possible dangers.

...That sure does sound familar. Almost like something the Chantry does.

The Chantry doesn't represent anyone except the people who choose to be part of it, it's not a government, you're not born into it, and you aren't given the opportunity to vote on any decision it makes. The comparison is invalid.

The only difference between the Chantry and any other governmental organization in Thedas is, simply the Chantry doesn't have borders. The average people in any country in Thedas doesn't have a voice in who should rule, just like the average Chantry member. The kings are ruled either by blood or influence, and the Chantry's Divines and Grand Clerics are choosen by successors. If there is no successor, they highest ranking members, either nobles or Mothers, decide who should rule them next.

The other major difference is that the Chantry draws its authority from an invisible deity and not from anything tangible at all.

I dont support monarchical systems either, so comparing the Chantry to the kings of Thedas isn't doing it any favours.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 14 septembre 2012 - 11:03 .

[Plaintiff]

nightscrawl wrote...
Here is the question: with all of that, do you think that those people who joined the Catholic Church after these incidents were made known, those individuals who continued to tithe, those who donated to their charities, are tacitly endorsing those actions of the pedophile priests and the following cover-up?

Before I reply, I want to assure you, I read the entire post, and I'm dealing with the second half since thats where the major discussion points are.

I'll admit, you've given me pause

I think the key difference here is that (unless I'm misinformed) there is nothing in Catholic doctrine that supports the actions of these priests. Like the violent, rapist Templars in the Circle, this is the action of individuals.

My stance is that the Circle system as a whole, which is supported by Chantry doctrine, and is common knowledge in Thedas, is inherently unjust in the way it operates, regardless of the actions of any individual Templar.
 

When thinking about the answer, you must remember that people look at faith-based organizations differently than your average organization. While a person who gives to the Red Cross and a person who gives to the Catholic Church might have the same goal in mind (charitable giving), the faith component adds something to the donation to the church. Make no mistake, many Catholics struggled (within themselves) with their church when this was revealed.

I don't doubt it. I wonder how the regular people of Thedas would react if the abuses of the Templar Order had been made public knowledge

Catholics have certain tenets of their faith which make them different from Protestants, although they are both Christians. Even if a person hates what their church (the institution) has done, they are not going to stop being Catholic if they continue to believe those same things.

You can apply the same principle to the Chantry and Andrastianity. Members of the Chantry are Andrastian, but not all Andrastians are part of the Chantry.

A fair point. Despite his vocal opposition, Anders is a faithful Andrastian, even if he approaches his faith in a more relaxed way, joking about it with party members in Awakening and DA2.

Maybe devout Andrastians who interpret the chant of light differently and disagree with the Circle system could splinter, Lutheran style. Neo-Andrastians? Ander-astians? That's a story I'd like to see told

[nightscrawl]

Plaintiff wrote...

My stance is that the Circle system as a whole, which is supported by Chantry doctrine, and is common knowledge in Thedas, is inherently unjust in the way it operates, regardless of the actions of any individual Templar.

As far as I know, the only real part of the Chantry doctrine regarding mages is (1) what is directly stated in the Chant of Light regarding mages and magic, and (2) the actual history of Andraste, her war, and her death.

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.

-- Transfigurations 1:2

Everything else came afterward as a result of events that were ongoing at the time.

History of the Templar Order...

Most people don't remember the Templar Order as it once was. In the days when the Chantry was still young, templars were known as the "Inquisition" and combed the land in search of all dangers to humanity -- whether they came in the form of blood mages, abominations, cultists or heretics. It was a dark and terrifying time in the history of Thedas, and one that only ended when the Chantry convinced the Inquisition to unite under the banner of their common faith. This agreement, the Nevarran Accord, was struck in 1:20 Divine. The Inquisition was then divided in two groups: the Seekers of Truth and the Templar Order, with the purpose of the Order becoming that of guardian and warden rather than hunter.

The Navarran Accord...

In the early years of the Divine Age, the Chantry was newly established in Orlais and the use of magic, though illegal, was rampant and unchecked. The Inquisition was a group who rose up to defend the people against the tyranny of magic in whatever form it might take, blood mages, abominations, cultists or heretics. After the first Blight, the Chantry recognized the mages’ value in helping protect humanity and so sought a better solution.

In 1:20 Divine, the Nevarran Accord was signed, and the Inquisition agreed to lower its banner and submit to the authority of the Chantry. The mage hunters switched their focus from hunting to guarding mages and established the Templar Order as the wardens for the newly created Circle of Magi. The Seekers of Truth became the overseers of the templars and special agents of the Divine.

Codex entry: History of the Circle...

It is a truth universally acknowledged that nothing is more successful at inspiring a person to mischief as being told not to do something. Unfortunately, the Chantry of the Divine Age had some trouble with obvious truths. Although it did not outlaw magic-quite the contrary, as the Chantry relied upon magic to kindle the eternal flame which burns in every brazier in every chantry-it relegated mages to lighting candles and lamps. Perhaps occasional dusting of rafters and eaves.

I will give my readers a moment to contemplate how well such a role satisfied the mages of the time.

It surprised absolutely no one when the mages of Val Royeaux, in protest, snuffed the sacred flames of the cathedral and barricaded themselves inside the choir loft. No one, that is, but Divine Ambrosia II, who was outraged and attempted to order an Exalted March upon her own cathedral. Even her most devout Templars discouraged that idea. For 21 days, the fires remained unlit while negotiations were conducted, legend tells us, by shouting back and forth from the loft.

The mages went cheerily into exile in a remote fortress outside of the capital, where they would be kept under the watchful eye of the Templars and a council of their own elder magi. Outside of normal society, and outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own closed society, the Circle, separated for the first time in human history.

-- From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

I'm actually not sure if "cheerily" was used here facetiously or not. On the one hand, they are going "into exile," on the other, they might have initially seen it as a good thing to be with other mages, legally practicing magic and learning.

IF there is more stuff, like posts from DG or something I would love to read them, but that is as much info we have on the formation of the Circle.

* According to the timeline as presented in the DAwiki, the Chant of Light was created by Andraste's disciples in 1040 TE (Tevinter Imperium), which was about 20 years after Andraste was killed.

* Then there was 55 years to 1095 TE, the establishment of the first Age, the Divine Age, 1:1 Divine, during which "The free use of magic is declared illegal in Orlais except by those mages operating under the direct auspices of the Chantry."

* The Second Blight starts in 1:5 Divine and goes on for 90 years. During 1:20 Divine is when the Navarran Accord is signed and the Circle of Magi with their templar guardians is created.

There really isn't any information about what the goal of the initial Circle formation was (other than to keep mages away from the general populace), nor how it evolved into the system we have today (the Harrowing, Rite of Tranquility, etc). The Right of Annulment wasn't even created until 2:83 Glory.


My point with all of this is that I don't really think that the current system can actually be considered "Chantry doctrine" as such. It just simply is the way events unfolded over time. That being said, assuming that the general public doesn't know about the various occasional templar abuses, I'd think that most of them are happy with the current system because it keeps mages away, and I will readily admit that it IS Chantry doctrine to preach fear of mages.

Despite comments made by Anders, not all mages are "ripped away" from their parents as children. Some children experience things like Wynne did (although those weren't her parents), the reaction that she was basically a monster, and going to the Circle was a positive thing for her. Born of the Chantry doctrine for preaching fear, this is one of the greatest problems mages will face in the upcoming war. Even if they should succeed and some deal is reached with the Chantry and mages can be at peace, they will still have to deal with that fear.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 14 septembre 2012 - 12:51 .

[Plaintiff]

nightscrawl wrote...
*snip*

Well, not all Chantry doctrine is in the Chant of Light, even if much of it is derived from that text. I don't have any codex info to back me up, but we at least know that Chantry founded the Circle and decided the rules on which it operates. Maybe those rules have changed over time. But that's what I refer to when I use "doctrine" in this context; the current rules, written or otherwise, that govern Circle operations.

The Chant of Light doesn't specifically say "Thou shalt lock mages in towers and generally be jerks to them", but obviously that's how the Chantry currently chooses to interpret it, so I consider that part of "Chantry doctrine". Not necessarily "Andrastian doctrine", since another person could read the Chant of Light and come to an entirely different conclusion.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 14 septembre 2012 - 12:49 .

[dragonflight288]

Lazy Jer wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

And at the time of the Anders explosion, the Templars were the military arm of the Chantry. The controlled an army.

It
may have been full of priests, but the Grand Cleric did have full
authority over Meredith, even if it wasn't exercised and that authority
became obese.

Obese?

A joke. Elthina's authority wasn't exercised much so it stayed home and got fat.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And he hasn't done anything comparable in three years.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's kinda what the thread is asking: if Anders flipping out and killing (bar Hawke's intervention) one innocent girl is not enough, how many would be? 

You may as well ask how many qunari relics Isabela would need to steal before it would be "enough."

Actually it'd be more accurate to ask how many times Isabela would need to be responsible, in part or full, for the razing of a city before it would be "enough."  Again for me the answer is one, if I found out she was pulling another stunt like the Qunari relic I'd be putting my foot down mighty hard.  You make a point (later post not quoted) that there is no evidence of a pattern.  My question was more or less would you let it get to that point.

Anders losing control and turning on an innocent once isn't enough to get you to take serious action.  Perfectly valid decision; as tragic as that situation can be it is an isolated incident and I don't criticize anyone for not wanting to act as strongly as I do to it.  Hypothetically speaking though how many times would it have to happen before you did feel the need to take serious action.  Twice?  Three times? A dozen? A hundred? A thousand?  Essentially how many times does your dog have to bite the mailman before you put him on a leash?

I'm not trying to say it will happen but we have to acknowledge that it could, and the question is how many times would it have to happen before you started doing something about it?  Or even how many times would it have to happen before you started considering it a pattern of behaviour?

[Renmiri1]

While comparing the Chantry to a RL religious organization, people are forgetting that the Chantry DID NOT help the poor and downtrodden. Anders did. The orphans ? Taken into care by a mage, who DID ASK the Chantry for help.. And got locked in the Circle while the orphaned kids were abandoned to fend for themselves.

Not only the Chantry does not help the sick and the orphans, it also makes it extremely hard for others to help them.

Mages have power to help and are locked in the Gallows, forbidden to help. Anders had to count on refugees and Hawke for protection or he too would have been taken to the Gallows.

Sister Petrice shows us what the Chantry "innocents" are up to. Not helping orphans, not tending to the sick. The sick, the poor and the orphans got nothing from the Chantry unless they dared to go inside the temple - two sisters mention they want to give food to kids. Did they give it ? No. The kids are afraid - justifiably because their friend got taken to the circle - and the two kind sisters are not so kind as to get of their arses and go distribute food in Lowtown.

[LobselVith8]

SirGladiator wrote...

That whole thing with Ella was pretty terrible, it really showed what kind of a monster that Anders/Justice had become, which is weird because separately both had been 'good' in the DAO Expansion, but here we see him almost killing an innocent girl, who was the victim of an evil dude that you had just saved her from, simply because she's scared of him.

Even Justice possessing Kristoff had trouble understanding certain concepts, because they are alien to him as a denizen of the Fade.

SirGladiator wrote...

It makes you think that he was never really all about 'helping mages' at all, just all about slaughter, certainly those were his actions in the end. The innocent girl is a mage, and he would be quite happy to kill her if you don't stop him, and he doesn't even get to make some kind of grand 'political statement' in killing her like he does in act 3, he just wants to kill because he wants to kill.

Ella is a member of the Chantry controlled Circle of Kirkwall, and it's likely her indocturination under this system that Justice sensed when she called him a demon. The fact that Justice tried to rally Anders to fight for his people in Amaranthine shows that the mage cause does mean something to him.

SirGladiator wrote...

I really liked Justice in the DAO Expansion, I guess its a lesson in never letting a spirit take control of a human being, he just went nuts, evil nuts.

Destroying an institution of slavery and oppression doesn't make Anders (or Justice) evil.

[Shadow Fox]

Renmiri1 wrote...

While comparing the Chantry to a RL religious organization, people are forgetting that the Chantry DID NOT help the poor and downtrodden. Anders did. The orphans ? Taken into care by a mage, who DID ASK the Chantry for help.. And got locked in the Circle while the orphaned kids were abandoned to fend for themselves.

Not only the Chantry does not help the sick and the orphans, it also makes it extremely hard for others to help them.

Mages have power to help and are locked in the Gallows, forbidden to help. Anders had to count on refugees and Hawke for protection or he too would have been taken to the Gallows.

Sister Petrice shows us what the Chantry "innocents" are up to. Not helping orphans, not tending to the sick. The sick, the poor and the orphans got nothing from the Chantry unless they dared to go inside the temple - two sisters mention they want to give food to kids. Did they give it ? No. The kids are afraid - justifiably because their friend got taken to the circle - and the two kind sisters are not so kind as to get of their arses and go distribute food in Lowtown.

Yeah because the Kirkwall Chantry totally reflects the whole organization never mind that 90% of the Kirkwall population were ****s anyway and the Divine was planning to wipe it off the face of Thedas because of the city's corruption.

[Wulfram]

The mage cause means a lot to Justice. The Mages themselves mean nothing.

Less than nothing - their failure to fight earns them his contempt. Hence his ultimate decision to cause their deaths.

[HK-90210]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Destroying an institution of slavery and oppression doesn't make Anders (or Justice) evil.

No, killing innocent people does

[Shadow Fox]

CastonFolarus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Destroying an institution of slavery and oppression doesn't make Anders (or Justice) evil.

No, killing innocent people does

Don't bother arguing with him he'll just go into one of his "chantry is evil because of the mages and Dalish" rants.

[Renmiri1]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Yeah because the Kirkwall Chantry totally reflects the whole organization never mind that 90% of the Kirkwall population were ****s anyway and the Divine was planning to wipe it off the face of Thedas because of the city's corruption.

???

I don't see the point you are trying to make. 

[Shadow Fox]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Yeah because the Kirkwall Chantry totally reflects the whole organization never mind that 90% of the Kirkwall population were ****s anyway and the Divine was planning to wipe it off the face of Thedas because of the city's corruption.

???

I don't see the point you are trying to make. 

You're saying the Chantry doesn't help people because of the corrupt Kirkwall Chantry's actions when Origins disproves this*Redcliffe,Orzammar and Lothering*.

[Renmiri1]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Yeah because the Kirkwall Chantry totally reflects the whole organization never mind that 90% of the Kirkwall population were ****s anyway and the Divine was planning to wipe it off the face of Thedas because of the city's corruption.

???

I don't see the point you are trying to make. 

You're saying the Chantry doesn't help people because of the corrupt Kirkwall Chantry's actions when Origins disproves this*Redcliffe,Orzammar and Lothering*.

No, I'm saying Kirkwall Chantry doesn't help people. And blowing it up didn't kill any orphans.

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Destroying an institution of slavery and oppression doesn't make Anders (or Justice) evil.

No, killing innocent people does

Don't bother arguing with him he'll just go into one of his "chantry is evil because of the mages and Dalish" rants.

Not everyone shares your view that the Chantry of Andraste. Some of us view the Chantry negatively. The Chantry's support of Orlesian invasion of other nations (including the occupation of Ferelden, which is why Maric and Loghain contemplated dissolving the Ferelden Chantry in "The Stolen Throne"), poisoning an entire continent against mages with religious rhetoric and its enslavement of the mages for nearly a millennia (as Cullen even admits that "templars have domination over mages by divine right"), and the Dalish claims that the Chantry sent templars to invade the Dales when the elves refused to convert to the human religion are reasons why some of us don't like the Chantry.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

CastonFolarus wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Destroying an institution of slavery and oppression doesn't make Anders (or Justice) evil.

No, killing innocent people does

Don't bother arguing with him he'll just go into one of his "chantry is evil because of the mages and Dalish" rants.

Not everyone shares your view that the Chantry of Andraste. Some of us view the Chantry negatively. The Chantry's support of Orlesian invasion of other nations (including the occupation of Ferelden, which is why Maric and Loghain contemplated dissolving the Ferelden Chantry in "The Stolen Throne"), poisoning an entire continent against mages with religious rhetoric and its enslavement of the mages for nearly a millennia (as Cullen even admits that "templars have domination over mages by divine right"), and the Dalish claims that the Chantry sent templars to invade the Dales when the elves refused to convert to the human religion are reasons why some of us don't like the Chantry.

Yeah not like they have any reason to oh wait hello there slave holding blood magic using Tevinter and the humans claim that it was the Dalish who escalated the conflict and considering the Dalish treat they're own kind just as badly as the humans you'll forgive me if I don't have much sympathy for them.

And according to you Anders was perfectfully justified in killing innocents and instigating  a slaughter just because well they're in a Chantry building and the Chantry is EVULZ GUIZ.

And if you're going to bring up the books Well I'll  use Asunder where the Divine authorized an attempt to find an alternative to the rite of tranquilty that didn't involve death.

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 14 septembre 2012 - 07:50 .

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Yeah not like they have any reason to oh wait hello there slave holding blood magic using Tevinter and the humans claim that it was the Dalish who escalated the conflict and considering the Dalish treat they're own kind just as badly as the humans you'll forgive me if I don't have much sympathy for them.

First, the actions of Tevinter don't excuse the treatment of mages in Andrastian society. Modern Andrastians are the descendants of the slaves who rebelled against Tevinter - mage and non-mage alike. And Tevinter enslaves both mages and non-mages.

Second, Orlais has a history of conquering other nations, from the early Exalted Marches of Drakon against his neighbors to create modern day Orlais to the occupation of Nevarra after the Third Blight and Ferelden (with at least two attempts made to conquer it previously). You'll have to excuse me for thinking that it might be possible that the Dales might be another nation that was invaded by Orlais.

Third, the Dales - in modern times - might be acting that way because they have lost two homelands, were enslaved for a long period of time, had some of their people forced to live in squalor and abandon their heritage, and the ones who refused to submit to human rule are now nomadic because templars hunt them down.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And according to you Anders was perfectfully justified in killing innocents and instigating  a slaughter just because well they're in a Chantry building and the Chantry is EVULZ GUIZ.

I think being members of an organization that enslaved an entire group of people for nearly a millennia means they weren't civilians.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And if you're going to bring up the books Well I'll  use Asunder where the Divine authorized an attempt to find an alternative to the rite of tranquilty that didn't invole death.

The Rite of Tranquility was still being done in Asunder, including with Pharamond.