223 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Not really. Neither Hogwarts wizards or Winterhold (from what I've seen anyway I didn't complete the questline fully. Got most of the way I think before I got bored.) have such a worry about demons. (That and Hogwarts wizards aren't known to the muggle public).

Something like that with a templar police force (seperated to mimilalize the risk of fratenizing and sympathy cases leading to disasters) to hunt down mages that become abominations/bloodmages might work.

But of course the question becomes who's paying for this mage school? Do the mages have to work while there to earn their keep? Would it be supported by taxes? Private industry?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 septembre 2012 - 06:02 .

[Shadow Fox]

Renmiri1 wrote...

A school for mages, policed and protected by the mages themselves could work. Like Hogwarts or the Winterhold College of Magic in Skyrim.

But who watches those mages?*the seekers are supposed to watch the Templars after all* Er...yeah I don't think Winterhold is a good argument here considering an explosion in the college that wrecked the Hold caused the Nords to become openly distrustful towards magic users. 

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 17 septembre 2012 - 06:50 .

[Renmiri1]

I don't think mages will ever be free until they are willing to effectively police their own rogue mages. Having templars police them has created rampant abuse.

Mages can police their own. In DAO the Denerim Mage Guild polices some blood mages that are giving mages a bad name. They should do more of that. They have the power and the best means to detect blood mages / possessed mages. They just need to understand that if they don't do it, them the Chantry and Templars will enslave them.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Ryzaki wrote...
seperated to mimilalize the risk of fratenizing and sympathy cases leading to disasters

That's kind of the problem with the current system.

If anything, I would advocate a combined school in which future Chantry officials, mages, and Templars all train together side-by-side. Might lead to fewer Alriks and more Thrasks.

[Ryzaki]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
seperated to mimilalize the risk of fratenizing and sympathy cases leading to disasters

That's kind of the problem with the current system.

If anything, I would advocate a combined school in which future Chantry officials, mages, and Templars all train together side-by-side. Might lead to fewer Alriks and more Thrasks.

Actually they do live together in the current system. That IS the problem. Them being together means they're available for abuse.

If anything I'd advocate each going to different school and not interacting with each other unless it's necessary. (Save the Knight Commander and First Enchanter who have to interact on a daily basis).

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

As it is templars are necessary because
simple hardships of life that others go through without explosions would
be...very explosive with a mage.

Note that I said limited freedom, and never said anything about removing the Templar Order. I support the presence of the Templars as a force to protect Mages from mundanes and protecting the mundanes from the dangers of magic.

I support the purpose of the Order, but now how they go about it or what they are now. I feel they are too far from the noble ideals I just said above.

As I've said elsewhere, I'm a moderate in regards to the whole Mage-Templar conflict.

[Ryzaki]

Oh sorry just use to arguing with those that say the templars need to go. While corrupted in their current form they do serve a valuable purpose.

[dragonflight288]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh sorry just use to arguing with those that say the templars need to go. While corrupted in their current form they do serve a valuable purpose.

You'll be surprised how many of us mage supporters are actually for the templars existence, but are opposed to their practices. And you'll also find us are just as quickly and willing to condemn mage criminals and deal with abominations with all speed.

If a mage makes a deal willingly, we can enter the Fade and cut off the connection at its source (Connor.) But depending on the nature of the deal itself, and the motives of the mage in question, is what usually what I feel should be determined to kill the abomiation or kill the demon from within the Fade. Connor only wanted to help his father, Tahrone wanted another Imperium. One was a small boy who was terrified, the other was a full grown, but insane, woman.

[Ryzaki]

Oh I'm sure you are. And there's plenty of templar supporters who think the current circle is a mess and mage abuses shouldn't be tolerated and will condemn vile templars like Alrik and deal with him as quickly as possible as well.

Connor's issue was his mom was an idiot socialite. And Loghain sucks. And Jowan is a complete moron. ....Connor pretty much had everything going against him. And yet he still holds his head high and has dignity and is willing to give his life to set things right despite being a child. Seriously one of the mages I respect. Fate dealt him a crappy hand and he stood his ground instead of throwing a hissy fit.

[dragonflight288]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh I'm sure you are. And there's plenty of templar supporters who think the current circle is a mess and mage abuses shouldn't be tolerated and will condemn vile templars like Alrik and deal with him as quickly as possible as well.

Connor's issue was his mom was an idiot socialite. And Loghain sucks. And Jowan is a complete moron. ....Connor pretty much had everything going against him. And yet he still holds his head high and has dignity and is willing to give his life to set things right despite being a child. Seriously one of the mages I respect. Fate dealt him a crappy hand and he stood his ground instead of throwing a hissy fit.

I'm not arguing any of those points. They are valid points. But some things do need to be considered.

1. Isolde's mother was absolutely terrified of losing her son to the Circle. She would probably be allowed to visit because of family influence and because Gregoire is a reasonable man, but most aren't so lucky. Also, she and Eamon would've lost their heir to the Arling. A mage cannot inherit a title, and he was their only child. Long-term planning would show that after Eamon dies, the arling would either pass to Teagon and his heirs (should he have any,) or would fall into chaos and someone else was given it.

Can this be blamed on the mother or the Circle system? It's all a matter of perspective that I won't argue. Just playing devil's advocate.

2. Loghain does suck, is a lousy politician, and isn't really portrayed accurately as a great general at Ostagar despite all the lore saying otherwise (the lower chambers being explored instead of sealed as one example.) But the situation wouldn't have even been there had Isolde not wanted an apostate and Loghain not interfered with Jowan.

And it was Howe watching Eamon, not Loghain. Whether or not Loghain was aware of things going on, (as he did hire Jowan,) it was Howe who was put in charge of watching the situation thanks to the elf's information in the tavern. Howe is not a person to put in charge of something and expect any moral decisions to be made.

3. Jowan isn't a complete moron. Just an idiot with poor judgement and doesn't think things through. But he does have a good heart and does use his blood magic to help refugees escape the darkspawn if you tell him "I never want to see you again," and order him to run.

Not really arguments, but just some things to think about.

[Ryzaki]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I'm not arguing any of those points. They are valid points. But some things do need to be considered.

1. Isolde's mother was absolutely terrified of losing her son to the Circle. She would probably be allowed to visit because of family influence and because Gregoire is a reasonable man, but most aren't so lucky. Also, she and Eamon would've lost their heir to the Arling. A mage cannot inherit a title, and he was their only child. Long-term planning would show that after Eamon dies, the arling would either pass to Teagon and his heirs (should he have any,) or would fall into chaos and someone else was given it.

She was also terrified of her status. YMMV on it being mostly concern for her son or herself being what kept him from the circle.

Can this be blamed on the mother or the Circle system? It's all a matter of perspective that I won't argue. Just playing devil's advocate.

She chose not to have her son get proper training. And then to make it worse she chose to send all the castle guards on some witchhunt for the urn of sacred ashes and ends up getting a great deal of her people slaughtered. I'm half surprised they didn't kill her.

2. Loghain does suck, is a lousy politician, and isn't really portrayed accurately as a great general at Ostagar despite all the lore saying otherwise (the lower chambers being explored instead of sealed as one example.) But the situation wouldn't have even been there had Isolde not wanted an apostate and Loghain not interfered with Jowan.

And it was Howe watching Eamon, not Loghain. Whether or not Loghain was aware of things going on, (as he did hire Jowan,) it was Howe who was put in charge of watching the situation thanks to the elf's information in the tavern. Howe is not a person to put in charge of something and expect any moral decisions to be made.

3. Jowan isn't a complete moron. Just an idiot with poor judgement and doesn't think things through. But he does have a good heart and does use his blood magic to help refugees escape the darkspawn if you tell him "I never want to see you again," and order him to run.

Not really arguments, but just some things to think about.

Yup.

? I didn't say anything about Howe. 

He kind of is. He practices bloodmagic...then cries when he has to reap the consequences of that...he then derps and thinks it's a good idea to poison someone (let alone an Arl) and gets himself imprisoned and when you try to give him the chance to help you cries that he doesn't want to. A stab to the gut is the least that idiot deserves.

[Crowlover]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I've read it, but Hawke isn't privy to those events. It also conflicts pretty badly with some things that happen in-game, like how he can be stabbed in the chest with a sword and not die but he can't die from a dagger in the back.

omg...What if he isn't actually dead at the end of DA2?

I mean you can stab him, and he falls to the ground seemingly lifeless, but you never get the chance to bury him or cremate him or anything.

What if by the time Meredith is bursting into red flames the supposedly dead Anders has risen to his feet and casually strolls to the nearest ship to sail out of Kirwall only to reappear in DA3?

[Xilizhra]

And what pray tell is that going to be? I'll listen to the "freedom!" cries when they have a gameplan. Until then I'm going with the flawed circle being reformed.

In DA2, the rebellion hasn't even actually started. All you can do is defend against genocide, or commit genocide and still utterly fail in your goal. In DA3... well, I believe we'll see more of an agenda, but regardless, the Order will be utterly annihilated, down to the very last loyalist. Though I will obviously accept surrender/conversion.

[dragonflight288]

? I didn't say anything about Howe.

I know. But since Howe is proven to be watching the place, not Loghain, that means the guy that betrays the Couslands and has his bedroom in the torture chamber in Denerim had a stake in what was happening in Redcliff as well. I don't know if he was watching it on Loghain's orders or if he was playing his own game, but his influence cannot be discarded in that situation either.

[TEWR]

Crowlover wrote...

omg...What if he isn't actually dead at the end of DA2?

He's dead. Gaider confirmed it.

[Dave of Canada]

ONE.
TWO.
THREE.

THREE ELLAS.

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

He kind of is. He practices bloodmagic...then cries when he has to reap the consequences of that...he then derps and thinks it's a good idea to poison someone (let alone an Arl) and gets himself imprisoned and when you try to give him the chance to help you cries that he doesn't want to. A stab to the gut is the least that idiot deserves.

Take into consideration that it was most likely Uldred who led him to blood magic in the first place, possibly exploiting some of Jowan's fears on why he hasn't taken the Harrowing yet when he's a year older then the Warden IIRC.

Uldred is a man who has made it no secret to the players that he will sacrifice blood mages in the Circle to the Templars so that he can raise his own standing amongst them and conceal his own status as a maleficar even further.

Considering the "witness" we hear about in the Mage Origin is never told to us, I'm led to believe it was, in fact, Uldred.

[TEWR]

Dave of Canada wrote...
*snip*

AH AH AH.

I just laughed my ass off. Dave of Canada, you are my hero.

[erilben]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

He kind of is. He practices bloodmagic...then cries when he has to reap the consequences of that...he then derps and thinks it's a good idea to poison someone (let alone an Arl) and gets himself imprisoned and when you try to give him the chance to help you cries that he doesn't want to. A stab to the gut is the least that idiot deserves.

Take into consideration that it was most likely Uldred who led him to blood magic in the first place, possibly exploiting some of Jowan's fears on why he hasn't taken the Harrowing yet when he's a year older then the Warden IIRC.

Nah, Jowan is an idiot. You can get him to admit he only learned blood magic because he wanted to make himself stronger because was jealous of the mage Warden.

[TEWR]

That doesn't negate the possibility that Uldred led him to the books on the subject -- either directly or indirectly, perhaps like Lucius Malfoy. It actually proves my point -- that Uldred may have used some of Jowan's fears or insecurities to get him to learn it.

For all we know Uldred talked with Jowan about those feelings he was having, and as Jowan was leaving or when he turned away just for a minute, Uldred slipped some blood magic notes/a book on blood magic in Jowan's belongings and Jowan discovered it later on.

Then, thinking about how he wanted to be stronger then the Warden due to jealousy -- feelings possibly made worse by Uldred -- he succumbed and studied it.

Then Uldred comes to the Templars and goes "GUISE GUISE. I JUST SAW ANOTHER MALEFICAR!"

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 septembre 2012 - 05:56 .

[Lazy Jer]

erilben wrote...
Nah, Jowan is an idiot. You can get him to admit he only learned blood magic because he wanted to make himself stronger because was jealous of the mage Warden.

It doesn't really say he did it out of jealousy for the Warden.  He turned to blood magic because he thought it would make him a better mage.  It was either  be a better mage or end up tranquil.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

And what pray tell is that going to be? I'll listen to the "freedom!" cries when they have a gameplan. Until then I'm going with the flawed circle being reformed.

In DA2, the rebellion hasn't even actually started. All you can do is defend against genocide, or commit genocide and still utterly fail in your goal. In DA3... well, I believe we'll see more of an agenda, but regardless, the Order will be utterly annihilated, down to the very last loyalist. Though I will obviously accept surrender/conversion.

ANd when you start a rebellion without a gameplan...I'm not going to help you.


As for annihilating the order. LOL you have as much a chance of that happening as they do annilating all the mages.

dragonflight288 wrote...

? I didn't say anything about Howe.

I
know. But since Howe is proven to be watching the place, not Loghain,
that means the guy that betrays the Couslands and has his bedroom in the
torture chamber in Denerim had a stake in what was happening in
Redcliff as well. I don't know if he was watching it on Loghain's orders
or if he was playing his own game, but his influence cannot be
discarded in that situation either.

 
Pretty sure Jowan didn't even know Howe. And of course he has a stake. He's Loghain's lackey and Eamon threatens Loghain's power.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

He
kind of is. He practices bloodmagic...then cries when he has to reap
the consequences of that...he then derps and thinks it's a good idea to
poison someone (let alone an Arl) and gets himself imprisoned and when
you try to give him the chance to help you cries that he doesn't want
to. A stab to the gut is the least that idiot deserves.

Take
into consideration that it was most likely Uldred who led him to blood
magic in the first place, possibly exploiting some of Jowan's fears on
why he hasn't taken the Harrowing yet when he's a year older then the
Warden IIRC.

Uldred is a man who has made it no secret to the
players that he will sacrifice blood mages in the Circle to the Templars
so that he can raise his own standing amongst them and conceal his own
status as a maleficar even further.

Considering the "witness" we hear about in the Mage Origin is never told to us, I'm led to believe it was, in fact, Uldred.

Speculation. Plus Jowan admits to wanting to be more powerful. Moron. (Him not you).

[Xilizhra]

ANd when you start a rebellion without a gameplan...I'm not going to help you.

Then stay out of the fight.

As for annihilating the order. LOL you have as much a chance of that happening as they do annilating all the mages.

Them doing so would eliminate an entire playable class and make the game world noticeably duller, so it won't happen for dramatic reasons. However, taking out the Order is, I believe, something that could well be possible.

[Ryzaki]

Why? I'm not going to stand by and let you sow destruction without a gameplan. I will stop you.

Yup you keep thinking that. Doesn't make it anymore possible.

[Xilizhra]

Why? I'm not going to stand by and let you sow destruction without a gameplan. I will stop you.

Personally, I don't intend on playing someone who sows destruction without a gameplan, and have never done so in either game. So I don't know why you're concerned about me.