522 réponses à ce sujet

[in it for the lolz]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Cerberus and the Council are both incompetent fools.

You forgot about the Alliance. They are THE biggest lot of  incompetent fools.

[Rasofe]

I'm happy to see that other people have taken a stand to Massive's ideas on what defines benevolent authoritarianism, simply because those ideas have absolutely no relation to any kind of benevolent authoritarianism.
It's funny. Back in the day when I said that one of the key properties of humanity was selfishness, I was called a nihilist and a materialist. Now I'm apparently arguing for moral absolutes because I advocate common sense.

The truth is that I'm an anthropocentrist. My underlying premise and irrevocable argument is not that a race of supermachines that try to destroy everyone must be stopped. That's just a logical conclusion from the more fundamental fact that humanity and good are equivalent, therefore things that harm the trait that is humanity are not good.

Massive's advocated totalitarianism is factually proven to harm individual humanity. Because his "pro-human stancpoint" requires that fact to be either acceptable or not true, he has either neglected the first principle of humanity to build his argument or he doesn't know what humanity is. Either way his statements and conclusions are irrelevantly insane.

It's really not a moral, social or ethical issue. It's got to do with investigationable historical evidence and the very underlying philosophies of what it is to be human. Two people who disagree on basic facts can't have a reasonable debate.

Modifié par Rasofe, 28 novembre 2013 - 01:45 .

[rekn2]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Really massive? You're taking a pro-totalitarianism stance?

No. Just a cruel, brutal, backstabbing, sociopathic path to get where I want to go.

Consider it like this. 

I'm like Prince Bhelen. I'm going to rule with a firm hand, but it will be benevolent, and it will genuinely work more towards the benefit of all. 

said every dictator ever

[Rasofe]

That's the garbage part. Okay, it's one of the garbage parts.
While benevolent dictatorships have existed - Peter the Great, Napoleon are such examples - what this guy describes is NOT ruling with a firm hand and benevolence. Factually it's totalitarianism, which is an anathema to humanity and by first principle can't be benevolent.

I wish we could go back to talking about Miranda Lawson but this is the sort of thing that needs to be said. The character thread got locked because the fans couldn't agree on her being a complete character and had to have polarising views. But it gets even worse when the character is advocated by a madman.

Modifié par Rasofe, 28 novembre 2013 - 02:22 .

[David7204]

Let's not burden ourselves by taking any of this silly nonsense seriously.

What we have here is someone on the internet grasping for power. And this Machiavellian attitude is simply a cheap, easy, simple, and crude way to do so. Look at me, I advocate all these things normal people wouldn't do because I'm so tough and badass.

It's the same reason why casual genocide and murder is gleefully advocated all over the BSN. Just remember these people are nothing more than clowns who lead who talk up mass killings, slavery, and revolution on the internet and lead meek, mild, law abiding lives.

Modifié par David7204, 28 novembre 2013 - 02:33 .

[Rasofe]

Well, yeah, I hate to say it David, but the only problem I've seen with you so far is just a little logic error here and there. I do those all the time when I'm proving mathematical theorems that I don't quite understand as an exercise.

Getting fundamental premises and ordinary facts wrong is pretty hardcore crazy. Perhaps I shouldn't be taking any of this seriously.

So, David, did you read my (and Flemms and Ieldra's) last comments on Miranda's normality? I think it's the bottom of page 4 and ends somewhere page 5 comment 3.

Modifié par Rasofe, 28 novembre 2013 - 02:39 .

[David7204]

Miranda hates her father.

But as much as she hates him, it should be clear they really aren't all that different. Henry Lawson may have done horrible things to his daughter, but at the end of the day...they worked. Despite Miranda killing him, it might be Henry having the last laugh. His methods got him a daughter that turned out to be a very capable human being. He got what he wanted.

It's exactly the kind of attitude Miranda praises. Exactly the kind of thing she advocated herself by joining Cerberus. Exactly the kind of methods she used. Miranda knows she's not much different from the man she hates. But you see, since she's been at the recieving end of 'the ends justify the means,' hating her father forces to admit that her methods may have done a great deal more harm than she'd like to admit.

That's why Miranda romantizes normality.  As long she convinces herself normality is some wistful, romantic dream out of her reach, she can belive that she was somehow 'forced' into Cerberus reluctantly. That she does dirty work so others don't have to. That she's the noble and sacrificial Atlas holding the rest of humanity up. Because then she can despise her father in peace. Then she can believe, without contradiction, that whatever harm she did wasn't really her choice.

It's all nonsense, of course. Miranda joined Cerberus willingly and completely endorses their methods to the point of contempt for normal people. 'Normality' is no fantasy, and Miranda could easily have everything a normal person does if she decided to.

So yes, it is a character flaw. But it's a very well done one.

Modifié par David7204, 28 novembre 2013 - 02:51 .

[Rasofe]

It's true that Lawson's work on Miranda did result in a super-professional awesomesauce person, but Miranda has learned not to credit her father with what she accomplishes throughout the course of the game. This manifests especially with Ori, who Miranda says "He didn't give her to me."

She also does grow to eventually - although slowly- admit that what Cerberus does and what she wanted to do was wrong. Hence her admission that she's always regretted wanting to implant Shepard with the control chip. The line crossed for her was probably the Collector Base given her reaction.

The last half of your post though... eh... I'm not feeling it. Miranda does attribute her mistakes to her self and she doesn't really act like she was forced to work in Cerberus - especially since she enjoys working with people as smart and talented as she is. And she doesn't really convince herself that a normal life is outside her reach besides that she has ended up raised and grown as a person to never really want a normal life herself - but she doesn't believe, given how she was raised, that she ever had a choice in what she wanted. Hence "Forced to be lobsided" versus "Free to be balanced" w.r.t. how Miranda's mind has turned out to work and that she doesn't want the same for Oriana.

And I may not be completely up to speed, but I don't really recall Miranda ever getting her hands overly dirty doing anything. Exceot shooting Wilson, but he reincarnated as Grunt so she was doing him a favor.

If it is a character flaw, it's one of those inner flaws in a perfect diamond that give it its sparkle. Romanticising normal life is still more of an outcome of the central theme of her character story rather than being the central theme itself.

Modifié par Rasofe, 28 novembre 2013 - 03:15 .

[David7204]

Miranda not acting like it is the whole point. It's hypocrisy. It's a belief that fades in and out for her whether she needs it or not. It appears when her sister comes along and vanishes when she needs to work. Thus, she's contemptuous of normally people generally but romantisizes them on certain occasions.

Does she learn? That's hard to say. She sure as hell didn't know at the start of ME 2, and frankly, these aren't things people can learn from conversation. People generally don't change on matters like this. They either understand them and they've always understood them or they don't understand them and never will.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

rekn2 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Really massive? You're taking a pro-totalitarianism stance?

No. Just a cruel, brutal, backstabbing, sociopathic path to get where I want to go.

Consider it like this. 

I'm like Prince Bhelen. I'm going to rule with a firm hand, but it will be benevolent, and it will genuinely work more towards the benefit of all. 

said every dictator ever

You know what.

Yeah. I want to be a dictator. Because I have the power and authority to get things done, and because I don't give a damn about the consequences.

[Rasofe]

David7204 wrote...

Miranda not acting like it is the whole point. It's hypocrisy. It's a belief that fades in and out for her whether she needs it or not. It appears when her sister comes along and vanishes when she needs to work. Thus, she's contemptuous of normally people generally but romantisizes them on certain occasions.

Does she learn? That's hard to say. She sure as hell didn't know at the start of ME 2, and frankly, these aren't things people can learn from conversation. People generally don't change on matters like this. They either understand them and they've always understood them or they don't understand them and never will.

David, for an expert on literature like yourself you should know that characters don't need to start learning immediately to be dynamic. That's really what the Loyalty Mission is for. And you know, all the dialogue following it and ME3 and etc.
Like I said, if she is a hypocrite she learns not to be eventually. But she does put up a pretty good front of an air of superiority... I think that's more of a mask of her own personal insecurities though. It's not hypocrisy per se, most insecure but responsible people are like that.

[Rasofe]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Really massive? You're taking a pro-totalitarianism stance?

No. Just a cruel, brutal, backstabbing, sociopathic path to get where I want to go.

Consider it like this. 

I'm like Prince Bhelen. I'm going to rule with a firm hand, but it will be benevolent, and it will genuinely work more towards the benefit of all. 

said every dictator ever

You know what.

Yeah. I want to be a dictator. Because I have the power and authority to get things done, and because I don't give a damn about the consequences.

Charming, but dictators have to be pragmatic and competent. Otherwise they are either replaced by dictators who are, or cast down by the natural supremacy of humanity when such are not available. Not caring about consequences is a surefire way to lose your life because your second-in-commands decide you've had your fun (Stalin) or having the rest of the world justifiably declare war on you.

Non-totalitarian despotism is the highest form of pure meritocracy. So you wouldn't be up for the task, mr "Practical".

Modifié par Rasofe, 28 novembre 2013 - 03:30 .

[David7204]

The fact that Miranda still speaks wistfully about being normal in ME 2 after her mission, in ME 3, and in Citadel tells me she hasn't learned. She's still trying to convince herself of something.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rasofe wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

rekn2 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Really massive? You're taking a pro-totalitarianism stance?

No. Just a cruel, brutal, backstabbing, sociopathic path to get where I want to go.

Consider it like this. 

I'm like Prince Bhelen. I'm going to rule with a firm hand, but it will be benevolent, and it will genuinely work more towards the benefit of all. 

said every dictator ever

You know what.

Yeah. I want to be a dictator. Because I have the power and authority to get things done, and because I don't give a damn about the consequences.

Charming, but dictators have to be pragmatic and competent. Otherwise they are either replaced by dictators who are, or cast down by the natural supremacy of humanity when such are not available. Not caring about consequences is a surefire way to lose your life because your second-in-commands decide you've had your fun (Stalin) or having the rest of the world justifiably declare war on you.

Whelp, guess what. My shadow dictator is practical and competent. My shadow dictator in headcanon rules, and he is never taken down. He's the puppet-master behind the stage, and in his public persona, he is adored as a hero. And yes, he does possess the means to suppress the entire galaxy in the case of an uprising, which will not happen.

I think we do disagree on what it means to be human. To me, being human is to be a bipedal hominid mammal with the most developed brain relative to its size in the animal kingdom. It's an assortment of trillions of cells coming together as one collective being. It requires an oxygen/nitrogen atmoshphere, and and relatively non-polluted source of potable water. It's minimum daily intake of calories is 1000 calories per day. 

To me, that's what it is to be human. Anything more is to be me.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rasofe wrote...
Non-totalitarian despotism is the highest form of pure meritocracy. So you wouldn't be up for the task, mr "Practical".

And what are you basing this off of? What knowledge of me do you have that tells me I'm not up for a task? I know you're wrong, but I want to see where this will go.

[Rasofe]

David7204 wrote...

The fact that Miranda still speaks wistfully about being normal in ME 2 after her mission, in ME 3, and in Citadel tells me she hasn't learned. She's still trying to convince herself of something.

Not being normal as in ordinary, being normal as in being balanced. IF what you're saying is true, then in the beginning of ME2 she was using double standards to justify her choices whereas now she'd rather drop the double standards and just commit to stop being so over-professional all the time, become her own person, see her sister more often, et cetera. To put it bluntly, Miranda turns words into action after ME2.

You got to admit I'm on to something here.

[Rasofe]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Rasofe wrote...
Non-totalitarian despotism is the highest form of pure meritocracy. So you wouldn't be up for the task, mr "Practical".

And what are you basing this off of? What knowledge of me do you have that tells me I'm not up for a task? I know you're wrong, but I want to see where this will go.

This isn't "going anywhere". You jump into every argument you can find if it just so much as slightly dissatisfies you. That alone means you're not a sufficiently pragmatic person to run a state.
I've always believed that every individual human being should have the chance to become world dictator. But for every person you can find on the internet, there's always gonna be someone better IRL. So by posting anything here you defeat your own chances.
Factual observation here, not logic. Therefore it is true.

[David7204]

But it's not actions. It's words. A person continually repeating something to himself or herself is the surest sign they don't believe it. If Miranda really believed being 'normal' was so great she wouldn't feel any need to say so.

[Rasofe]

David7204 wrote...

But it's not actions. It's words. A person continually repeating something to himself or herself is the surest sign they don't believe it. If Miranda really believed being 'normal' was so great she wouldn't feel any need to say so.

Oh, that's just because the writers think we don't have a large vocabulary, so they don't bother using a thesaurus. "Balanced" would be too ambigious, but that's pretty much what she means.

And it is actions. At least if you push her toward speaking with her sister and given her SB dossier. Not to mention how Liara points out that Miranda was much, much colder before ME2, and that she actually tries to relax on the Citadel DLC, and breaks away from Cerberus. Those aren't just words anymore, those are decisions. That's a big step.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rasofe wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Rasofe wrote...
Non-totalitarian despotism is the highest form of pure meritocracy. So you wouldn't be up for the task, mr "Practical".

And what are you basing this off of? What knowledge of me do you have that tells me I'm not up for a task? I know you're wrong, but I want to see where this will go.

This isn't "going anywhere". You jump into every argument you can find if it just so much as slightly dissatisfies you. That alone means you're not a sufficiently pragmatic person to run a state.

No I don't. There are lot's of arguments here I don't jump into. I'm not following your reasoning at all.

That seems more like a monocentric approach based on your own values and observances.

I've always believed that every individual human being should have the chance to become world dictator. But for every person you can find on the internet, there's always gonna be someone better IRL. So by posting anything here you defeat your own chances.

What the hell does this even mean?

Factual observation here, not logic. Therefore it is true.

Seems pretty biased against me to be honest. 

[enayasoul]

Miranda freely admits she's not good a being normal. "A disaster really." Miranda knows she's a workaholic to the extreme. <_<

Modifié par enayasoul, 28 novembre 2013 - 03:53 .

[Rasofe]

Facts are biased towards reality, Massive. That seems to be an alien concept to you, though.

[Ryzaki]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
He seemed to be doing things that were genuinely meant to progress the Dwarves. And he's bringing them on the path forward whether they want to go or not. Yes, it's authoritative, but absolute monarchies usually are. I don't see how his intention was entirely selfish - Or maybe it was, but it was out of a legitimate desire to better Dwarven society.

His benefits revolved mostly around giving him all the power in dwarven politics (by dissolving the assembly and killing anyone who so much as disagreed with him), increasing trade and getting more troops (The casteless weren't allowed to even fight darkspawn unless they joined the Legion of the Dead I believe and there was no benefit to doing so for the casteless to make that option particularly attractive before Bhelen's reforms) so the darkspawn didn't run them out of Orzammar like they did the other lands. That's not being a good guy. That's just not being Harrowmont's backward bending ass who refused to look forward or interact with other cultures.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 novembre 2013 - 04:44 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rasofe wrote...

Facts are biased towards reality, Massive. That seems to be an alien concept to you, though.

Your reality seems pretty warped. Especially when that reality is predisposed against me, on your own whim and definition. Forgive me when I say "I reject your reality and substitute my own." You seem to have a lot of issues with me personally. I wonder why? Beyond David and Xilizhra, I get along with pretty much everyone on here.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 28 novembre 2013 - 04:48 .

[Rasofe]

Well, you would say that. But you're delusional, remember?