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[MassivelyEffective0730]

Ryzaki wrote...
His benefits revolved mostly around giving him all the power in dwarven politics (by dissolving the assembly and killing anyone who so much as disagreed with him), increasing trade and getting more troops (The casteless weren't allowed to even fight darkspawn unless they joined the Legion of the Dead I believe and there was no benefit to doing so for the casteless to make that option particularly attractive before Bhelen's reforms) so the darkspawn didn't run them out of Orzammar like they did the other lands. That's not being a good guy. That's just not being Harrowmont's backward bending ass who refused to look forward or interact with other cultures.

The Assembly? The group of elitist nobles who hoarded power, kept up a backwards tradition of keeping contact with the outside world closed off, and squabbled with power games and conspiracies against each other, and focused more on maintaing the status quo of traditional Dwarven society that indirectly put Orzammar in its position in the first place? Yeah, he's eliminating dissenters. Most of them are the idiots who want to keep the casteless suppressed and the outside world outside. The Casteless are indeed granted greater privileges and rights in return for their military service. They are not consigned to fight with the Legion of the Dead alone. He opens relations with the surface and accepts aid from Ferelden, and he indeed begins the journey of retaking lands from the Darkspawn successfully.

Yes, he's a bit of megalomaniac, but he's a megalomaniac with a plan, and a plan that I can get behind. Aside from the angry nobles and warriors (who are pissed because the proletariat commoners are being treated with dignity to a certain degree), really there aren't a lot of people I can think of who wouldn't be behind this. 

He's not a good guy. I'm not saying he is. I will say that he doesn't have to be a good man to be a great leader. He's a visionary, bound and determined to make his vision reality. A better, stronger, more open Dwarven society. And he's willing to do what he has to do to get there. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rasofe wrote...

Well, you would say that. But you're delusional, remember?

By your definition, yes. 

[Ryzaki]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
The Assembly? The group of elitist nobles who hoarded power, kept up a backwards tradition of keeping contact with the outside world closed off, and squabbled with power games and conspiracies against each other, and focused more on maintaing the status quo of traditional Dwarven society that indirectly put Orzammar in its position in the first place? Yeah, he's eliminating dissenters. Most of them are the idiots who want to keep the casteless suppressed and the outside world outside. The Casteless are indeed granted greater privileges and rights in return for their military service. They are not consigned to fight with the Legion of the Dead alone. He opens relations with the surface and accepts aid from Ferelden, and he indeed begins the journey of retaking lands from the Darkspawn successfully.

Yes, he's a bit of megalomaniac, but he's a megalomaniac with a plan, and a plan that I can get behind. Aside from the angry nobles and warriors (who are pissed because the proletariat commoners are being treated with dignity to a certain degree), really there aren't a lot of people I can think of who wouldn't be behind this. 

He's not a good guy. I'm not saying he is. I will say that he doesn't have to be a good man to be a great leader. He's a visionary, bound and determined to make his vision reality. A better, stronger, more open Dwarven society. And he's willing to do what he has to do to get there. 

I didn't say they were consigned to fight with the legion of the dead. I said before Bhelen's policies that was the ONLY way Casteless could fight darkspawn since they weren't allowed into the military. (Also I never argued the castless weren't granted more rights in exchange for military service. But that's just it in EXCHANGE for military service. It's an incentive for them to give him more troops. He's not being "Ra ra more casteless freedoms!") 

Fair enough.

I'm just contrasting the whole he's doing this for altrustic reasons bit. He really isn't. He's not benevolent either (that in particular made me LOL).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 novembre 2013 - 05:47 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Ryzaki wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
The Assembly? The group of elitist nobles who hoarded power, kept up a backwards tradition of keeping contact with the outside world closed off, and squabbled with power games and conspiracies against each other, and focused more on maintaing the status quo of traditional Dwarven society that indirectly put Orzammar in its position in the first place? Yeah, he's eliminating dissenters. Most of them are the idiots who want to keep the casteless suppressed and the outside world outside. The Casteless are indeed granted greater privileges and rights in return for their military service. They are not consigned to fight with the Legion of the Dead alone. He opens relations with the surface and accepts aid from Ferelden, and he indeed begins the journey of retaking lands from the Darkspawn successfully.

Yes, he's a bit of megalomaniac, but he's a megalomaniac with a plan, and a plan that I can get behind. Aside from the angry nobles and warriors (who are pissed because the proletariat commoners are being treated with dignity to a certain degree), really there aren't a lot of people I can think of who wouldn't be behind this. 

He's not a good guy. I'm not saying he is. I will say that he doesn't have to be a good man to be a great leader. He's a visionary, bound and determined to make his vision reality. A better, stronger, more open Dwarven society. And he's willing to do what he has to do to get there. 

I didn't say they were consigned to fight with the legion of the dead. I said before Bhelen's policies that was the ONLY way Casteless could fight darkspawn since they weren't allowed into the military. (Also I never argued the castless weren't granted more rights in exchange for military service. But that's just it in EXCHANGE for military service. It's an incentive for them to give him more troops.) 

Fair enough.

I'm just contrasting the whole "he's doing this for altrustic" reasons bit. He really isn't.

Not purely altruism, but he is seeing how Dwarven society could be better, and he's working towards that, even if it's by less than honorable means.

And hey, I take that seriously. I get a lot of benefits and incentives for my military service. I'm sure it's worth it to the casteless to fight the Darkspawn that do indeed threaten all of the Dwarves with the knowledge that when they return, they will actually be treated with some respect. I can see how it's more than worth it to them.

The logic is clear to me.

Bhelen needs troops to fight the Darkspawn. To get his troops, he opens relations with the surface and recruits casteless. In return, he offers them opportunities and privileges to improve their lot in life (however basic). This would make him popular to them and would contribute to the Casteless being able to contribute more to Dwarven society (military, industry, etc). With a rise in Dwarven output, there comes a rise in confidence and strength. With that comes victory against the Darkspawn and the reclamation of further lands for the Dwarves. This leads to even more strength for Bhelen since the Dwarves see and respect a capable leader that is bringing strength back to the Dwarves. And Bhelen gets all the power he needs, because he's so well respected. He does exactly what he has to do. 

[Ryzaki]

Those benefits aren't the only way you'll be treated as worth something in society however. That's the difference. The casteless have nothing Bhelen gives them a carrot in exchangve for military service. That's not altrustic or benevolent. That's giving them incentive to join the military nothing more nothing less.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Ryzaki wrote...

Those benefits aren't the only way you'll be treated as worth something in society however. That's the difference. The casteless have nothing Bhelen gives them a carrot in exchangve for military service. That's not altrustic or benevolent. That's giving them incentive to join the military nothing more nothing less.

It works as means to an end. The same with them being in the military.

That isn't the end in and of itself for Bhelen. Them joining the military is a means to an end. The military itself is a means to an end. The end is Bhelen securing his throne and power even more. And he's doing actions that can be seen as benevolent to do that.

I think that's the difference here. Intent and action. It's not necessarily a dichotomy contrast and comparison, but how you're doing it.

Intent can justify actions, and actions can justify intent. It's pretty complicated. I'm not sure if you support the idea of actions justifying intent.

[Ryzaki]

My issue is that's not being pro casteless in any form however.

As for actions justifying intent *shrugs* I fail to see how that is anything other than what it looks like a means to consolidate his power base and give him more troops. I'm willing to be there's far more casteless than warrior and smith caste.

My main issue was you calling that benevolent. It's not.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 novembre 2013 - 06:18 .

[Rotward]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

That's an authoritative ideal. Not totalitarianism. Totalitarianism is what I'd be doing if I was trying to control every aspect of life in the galaxy. It's the exercise by the political government of  absolute control of the population, with all individuals being subordinated to the state, and opposition political groups and cultural expression are nigh completely banned and suppressed and oppressed.

Authoritatianism is a strong leadership, but much more of a 'don't screw with the people in power, and we won't bother you'. It's a strong elite cadre with vast powers put into it. An authoritarian style power does not have to be a totalitarian state. Black-ops enforcement isn't exactly the case - it's more for stopping potential zealots or ideological extremists from causing public displays of anarchy or terrorism.

I can say I'm hugging you, but if I've got a knife in your gut, my statement is false. You can say you're advertising an authoritative ideal all you want, which isn't better by the way, but your actual plans are not authoritative. They're texbook totalitarian. Deal with it. 

Modifié par Rotward, 28 novembre 2013 - 06:47 .

[Rotward]

tickle267 wrote...
what's this thread about again?

Well, at first it was the title miranda lawson... repeated five times in the OP. Now it's about arguing with our aspiring dictator. Next week, perhaps we'll discuss the merits of fracking for oil. 

Modifié par Rotward, 28 novembre 2013 - 06:52 .

[Rasofe]

One page ago I was having an intelligent discussion with David.
I bet if I had said that anywhere else, most people would be very sceptical.

[ImaginaryMatter]

How about for the sake of peace and love (and so this thread doesn't get locked down) we all just acknowledge one thing?

That Miranda Lawson has fantastic assets.

[Rotward]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

How about for the sake of peace and love (and so this thread doesn't get locked down) we all just acknowledge one thing?

That Miranda Lawson has fantastic assets.

I thought we were trying NOT to get this thread locked? I'll agree on those assets, though 

[Rasofe]

They're certainly fully developed.

[CynicalShep]

First, necroing year long threads should be punishable by law. Then, if you are going to necro a thread, it has to be a waifu thread, because locking the romance threads was too subtle a hint. This thread was always going to be derailed because Miranda is "terrorist", and "arrogant" and doesn't worship Shepard like the other waifus. But to each his own.

Second, all the "I'd burn you all" vs "you heartless monster" d*ck measuring is a waste of time, just like religion debates. Both sides are perfectly fine with dealing in absolutes and then blaming the other side of doing the exact same thing.

Third, gotta love Davey. Your avatar is comically fitting, seeing that you know about as much about human behavior and thought processes as EDI. People don't keep telling themselves the same thing over and over again because they don't believe in it. That's not how humans or denial work.

And lastly, Miranda was overdone, especially with the "booty shots". She still looks good but Yvonne is much better looking.

Modifié par CynicalShep, 28 novembre 2013 - 10:01 .

[illusive.man]

[enayasoul]

I'm glad Miranda doesn't worship Shepard like the others! It's refreshing!!! She can take care of her own damn self. Badass spy and operative. And my favorite amongst them all.

The ass shot are not necessary BioWare... they only serve to cater to the horny teenager male population. Miranda much more than just her looks.

Females play games too damn it!

Modifié par enayasoul, 28 novembre 2013 - 11:10 .

[illusive.man]

enayasoul wrote...

I'm glad Miranda doesn't worship Shepard like the others! It's refreshing!!! She can take care of her own damn self. Badass spy and operative. And my favorite amongs of them all.

The ass shot are not necessary BioWare... they only serve to cater to the horny teenager male population. Miranda much more than just her looks.

Females play games too damn it!

[enayasoul]

I actually liked the engine room scene. Women can be sexy and act sexy towards their partners. She is sexy and certainly not ashamed of her body. 

But isn't this a male fantasy? To be visually stimulated by this scene?

Modifié par enayasoul, 28 novembre 2013 - 10:27 .

[CynicalShep]

enayasoul wrote...

I actually liked the engine room scene. Women can be sexy and act sexy towards their partners. She is sexy and certainly not ashamed of her body. 

But isn't this a male fantasy? To be visually stimulated by this scene?

I think looking at and interacting with an attractive woman is a pretty widespread fantasy among heterosexual males, yes

[Rasofe]

For some it isn't a fantasy. But that may just be a rumour.

[illusive.man]

Rasofe wrote...

For some it isn't a fantasy. But that may just be a rumour.

What do you mean

[Rasofe]

I don't know, I heard from some guy at a tavern that in a distant continent, some guy actually got to interact with an attractive woman.
Not sure that I could trust him, he was wearing a hood and speaking parseltongue.

[illusive.man]

Rasofe wrote...

I don't know, I heard from some guy at a tavern that in a distant continent, some guy actually got to interact with an attractive woman.
Not sure that I could trust him, he was wearing a hood and speaking parseltongue.

 
I thought that was a myth

you  know I could be a attractive woman

[Rasofe]

They do say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Or, well, Zaeed does when he's talking to Samara.

[illusive.man]

Rasofe wrote...

They do say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Or, well, Zaeed does when he's talking to Samara.