522 réponses à ce sujet

[Rasofe]

So what does she have to do with normality again?

[AlexMBrennan]

74 Wrex wrote...

Miranda Lawson is alright
I don't know why all the hate for Miranda is for

That's understandable since everyone, including Bioware has forgotten that Cerberus are evil terrorists; as it happens, pulling an Uriah gambit is the only way the player can exert any control.
If you want the protagonist to become an evil terrorist then maybe don't make it a sequel to a gem where Shepard shoots all Cerberus operatives on sight for killing his unit on Akuze.

[David7204]

A fair amount of Miranda's dialogue romantizes being 'normal.' When she talks about her sister, she basically puts 'normal' up on a pedestal as the ideal. You also hear it during Citadel.

Of course, you have to look a little deeper to find the real reason.

Modifié par David7204, 24 novembre 2013 - 11:45 .

[Rasofe]

What, besides being mentally tortured by her father to become an overman?

No, it's not that Miranda wants her sister to BE normal, i.e. ordinary. It's that she wanted Oriana to have the opportunity to at least choose a different life, rather than to be forced to be the carrying vessel of any and every endevour. Miranda herself developed into a professional, but she knows that she was forced to do so, a fact that has caused her to resent her own position.
Don't get too caught up on the exact words used. It's not so much about being normal as not being forced to be special.

[David7204]

She was never forced.

Working with Cerberus was her choice. Being a professional was her choice. Using Cerberus' methods was her choice.

[Rasofe]

Worked with Cerberus that was the best alternative to staying with her father.
She was a professional because of the way she was raised.
There were no canonical Cerberus' methods before ME3. Whatever she did, it was the way she'd do it and not because of Cerberus. so I guess you're right there.

But it's more or less the way she was raised that she took issue with. According to HER she was forced. Objectively, maybe she could've walked away from Cerberus earlier or dealt with her issue differently.
Either way, she doesn't have some secret motive behind this, and her conclusion is quite natural. Niket especially identifies that she shouldn't have made the decision for Oriana to reject Lawson Sr, but Miranda's response to that is that Niket doesn't know what Lawson did to her - and hell, neither do we. All we know is what she's told us and it wasn't big on details.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I rather think David got his facts straight, but ended up with some completely wild conclusion out of the blue.

Thank god he's not a scientist.

And of course, Alex M Brennan is going around with his 'Cerberus are terrorists' schpeel again.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 24 novembre 2013 - 12:44 .

[hot_heart]

Rasofe has it. What I appreciate about characters like Miranda is that you do need to read between the lines, or at least see that not everyone is an open book.

[DeinonSlayer]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I rather think David got his facts straight, but ended up with some completely wild conclusion out of the blue.

Thank god he's not a scientist.

I'll bet he works for the IPCC. 

[Silcron]

Red Dust wrote...

The thing I liked most about ME2 Miranda was snubbing her in the briefing room before the suicide mission.

Miranda: Shepard, the second team is going to need a leader..
Shepard: You're absolutely right, Miranda.
Miranda:
Shepard: They'll have to be smart....Fearless...Charismatic. A born leader! Practically genetically perfect in every way. They'll need grace under fire and a voice of authority! Experience! The total package.
Miranda: Oh, Shepard,I accep--
Shepard: Garrus, you've got team two! OKAY, BREAK! LET'S DO THIS PEOPLE!!
Garrus: LOL!
Miranda: D:

I laughed my arse off at this.

[Rasofe]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I rather think David got his facts straight, but ended up with some completely wild conclusion out of the blue.

Thank god he's not a scientist.

And of course, Alex M Brennan is going around with his 'Cerberus are terrorists' schpeel again.

Told you his vision was limited...

Silcron wrote...

Red Dust wrote...

The thing I liked most about ME2 Miranda was snubbing her in the briefing room before the suicide mission.

Miranda: Shepard, the second team is going to need a leader..
Shepard: You're absolutely right, Miranda.
Miranda:
Shepard: They'll have to be smart....Fearless...Charismatic. A born leader! Practically genetically perfect in every way. They'll need grace under fire and a voice of authority! Experience! The total package.
Miranda: Oh, Shepard,I accep--
Shepard: Garrus, you've got team two! OKAY, BREAK! LET'S DO THIS PEOPLE!!
Garrus: LOL!
Miranda: D:

I laughed my arse off at this.

Dayum. But TBH I metagamed a little there. I had Garrus lead the second team while Tali was in the vents.
In the words of Kirrahe and Mordin, personal investment is key  - no way Garrus would let Tali die. Ever.
Except on Rannoch. Or if you are REALLY intent on getting Tali killed.
Miranda got to lead the second team during the long walk, it's fun listening to her battleshouts.

Modifié par Rasofe, 25 novembre 2013 - 07:43 .

[Tiafain789]

WTB ME4: The Miranda Lawson chronicles.

[Rasofe]

One can only hope.

[Ieldra]

David7204 wrote...
A fair amount of Miranda's dialogue romantizes being 'normal.' When she talks about her sister, she basically puts 'normal' up on a pedestal as the ideal. You also hear it during Citadel.

Of course, you have to look a little deeper to find the real reason.

What, in your opinion, is the real reason? You've hinted at that several times. Would you please clarify?

[Ryzaki]

Silcron wrote...

Red Dust wrote...

The thing I liked most about ME2 Miranda was snubbing her in the briefing room before the suicide mission.

Miranda: Shepard, the second team is going to need a leader..
Shepard: You're absolutely right, Miranda.
Miranda:
Shepard: They'll have to be smart....Fearless...Charismatic. A born leader! Practically genetically perfect in every way. They'll need grace under fire and a voice of authority! Experience! The total package.
Miranda: Oh, Shepard,I accep--
Shepard: Garrus, you've got team two! OKAY, BREAK! LET'S DO THIS PEOPLE!!
Garrus: LOL!
Miranda: D:

I laughed my arse off at this.

So did I XD

Miranda is pretty fail on the SM especially when she recommends herself for the bubble.

[Rasofe]

Ieldra2 wrote...

David7204 wrote...
A fair amount of Miranda's dialogue romantizes being 'normal.' When she talks about her sister, she basically puts 'normal' up on a pedestal as the ideal. You also hear it during Citadel.

Of course, you have to look a little deeper to find the real reason.

What, in your opinion, is the real reason? You've hinted at that several times. Would you please clarify?

Allow me.
Given that David has suggested that honesty is the theme carrying Miranda's character arc, I think he means that Miranda isn't being honest with herself... and that because this isn't patently obvious but only implied, it must be a more significant theme than the idea that being forced to be - well, anything - can have personally rejectionable consequences.
I disagree with that honest is the theme of Miranda's character arc on the straightforward grounds that a complex character like Miranda Lawson couldn't have been written with that single word in mind as a development force..If he volunteers to be more specific, I will reasses.

[Ieldra]

Thank you, Rasofe. If correctly stated, I do not find David's interpretation convincing and must conclude, then, that the "normal life" theme in Miranda's story arc is indeed what it appears to be at face value. Too bad, I hate it with a passion, way more than anything else in the game (including the original ending, and that's saying something) and would've liked a reinterpretation that made sense.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 novembre 2013 - 02:59 .

[Ryzaki]

I didn't mind the normal bit but I figured she'd eventually develop into a scientist who still had a family and the such. (Basically she'd learn that moderation was good and pushing everything she loves away wasn't healthy but that didn't mean she couldn't change the world for the better outside of her family).

Instead she went way too far on the family side of the spectrum. =/

[Rasofe]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Thank you, Rasofe. If correctly stated, I do not find David's interpretation convincing and must conclude, then, that the "normal life" theme in Miranda's story arc is indeed what it appears to be at face value. Too bad, I hate it with a passion, way more than anything else in the game (including the original ending, and that's saying something) and would've liked a reinterpretation that made sense.

I don't follow you. Miranda's life is anything but normal. She's just trying to learn how to balance it, with Shepard's help.
Learning R&R tips, how to be emotionally attached and dancing like an asari from the first human spectre and his friends is still not ordinary behaviour, but it's a start.

As I said earlier, she doesn't want Oriana to be just a commoner, but she doesn't want to let what Lawson Sr. did to her happen to her sister. It's important to find your own talents rather than to be shoved into them at the whims of some deluded dolt, and a normal life for Ori is exactly that opportunity.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
 Too bad, I hate it with a passion, way more than anything else in the game (including the original ending, and that's saying something) and would've liked a reinterpretation that made sense.

Well, I think the game has already done that, in a sense.

Obviously, many interpretations are possible, and one can try to make it all "fit," if one wants, but I think the perspective has shifted somewhat over time.

In 2, I think one can say that Miranda hopes to experience, vicariously through Oriana, the kind of existence that she was denied: not "normal" in some kind of absolute sense, but free from her father's controlling influence, able to make her own choices, with less outside pressure to succeed or excel all the time.

It always made sense that she would feel some longing or nostalgia for that type of existence. Miranda had to struggle from childhood, she didn't have nurturing parents, and, working for Cerberus, she is under a lot of pressure to do the impossible a lot of the time.

In the ME3 core game, I think the perspective changes insofar as (1) *normal* has acquired a much more specific definition (marriage, children), and it has become Miranda's only desire/focus, as opposed to the more complex situation described above. And (2) "normal" has also acquired a much more *absolute* connotation in ME3 than previously. This rather narrow or constricting vision of normality influences large chunks of the ME3 core game (not only Miranda's content).

In ME2, normal was *relative*. There's a big difference between "normal" as compared to my tortured, pressure-packed existence and "normal" as conformity to a very problematic definition of what it should be normal for people to want (or for Miranda to want).

In Citadel, the perspective shifts again, and the focus is more on Miranda experiencing normality in the sense of "relaxing, enjoying life, having fun, being happy, being with somebody who genuinely cares about her, etc."

Here again, it makes sense that Miranda would want to experience this. Take a break from her pressure-packed existence, enjoy not having to deal with people who are trying to control her, use her, etc.

Ultimately, I think the ME3 core game's perspective is problematic in way that the rest is really not. So, consider it retconned or re-contextualized imho. Other than the death scene, which can't be changed, it basically has been.

Modifié par flemm, 25 novembre 2013 - 04:33 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
 Too bad, I hate it with a passion, way more than anything else in the game (including the original ending, and that's saying something) and would've liked a reinterpretation that made sense.

Well, I think the game has already done that, in a sense.

Obviously, many interpretations are possible, and one can try to make it all "fit," if one wants, but I think the perspective has shifted somewhat over time.

In 2, I think one can say that Miranda hopes to experience, vicariously through Oriana, the kind of existence that she was denied: not "normal" in some kind of absolute sense, but free from her father's controlling influence, able to make her own choices, with less outside pressure to succeed or excel all the time.

It always made sense that she would feel some longing or nostalgia for that type of existence. Miranda had to struggle from childhood, she didn't have nurturing parents, and, working for Cerberus, she is under a lot of pressure to do the impossible a lot of the time.

In the ME3 core game, I think the perspective changes insofar as (1) *normal* has acquired a much more specific definition (marriage, children), and it has become Miranda's only desire/focus, as opposed to the more complex situation described above. "Normal" has also acquired a much more *absolute* connotation in ME3 than previously. This rather narrow or constricting vision of normality influences large chunks of the ME3 core game (not only Miranda's content).

In ME2,  "normal" was *relative*. There's a big difference between "normal" as compared to my tortured, pressure-packed existence" and "normal" as conformity to a very problematic definition of what it should be normal for people to want (or for Miranda to want).

Exactly that. ME2 worked nicely for me until the LotSB dossier appeared and we got a hint of where things might go in the worst case (and didn't they). Starting with the end of ME2, there's an increasingly traditionalist thematic vibe in ME which gets outright reactionary at times in ME3.

In Citadel, the perspective shifts again, and the focus is more on Miranda experiencing normality in the sense of "relaxing, enjoying life, having fun, being happy, being with somebody who genuinely cares about her, etc."

Here again, it makes sense that Miranda would want to experience this. Take a break from her pressure-packed existence, enjoy not having to deal with people who are trying to control her, use her, etc.

Ultimately, I think the ME3 core game's perspective is problematic in way that the rest is really not. So, consider it retconned or re-contextualized imho. Other than the death scene, which can't be changed, it basically has been.

The problem is that the thematic vibe of the core game has so much weight that it's difficult to see the Citadel content as a reinterpretation since there's nothing which isn't compatible with the core game's portrayal. Without the core game's portrayal, Citadel would've been perfect. Unless you're femShep, of course, then you get something extra that balances the weights in favor of a reinterpretation. Which is why I find the femShep/Miranda friendship the most satisfying variant of the story. If only the romance had an analogue...

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 novembre 2013 - 04:34 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem is that the thematic vibe of the core game has so much weight that it's difficult to see the Citadel content as a reinterpretation since there's nothing which isn't compatible with the core game's portrayal.

It's ok, though, if it's compatible. Ideally, I suppose it would be.

The issue, I think, with the core game's perspective, is how limiting and constricting it is.

With Citadel and, also, I think, the EC slides, there is no longer this sense that "normal" is limiting or constricting. On the contrary, Miranda has a strong personality again in Citadel (though expressed differently, due to the relaxed atmosphere): she has varied interests and ideas again (as opposed to the family/romance limitation she shares with Ashley in the core game), and we have a sense that the experience of joy/happiness will provide her with a more hopeful/optimistic outlook for future endeavors.

We don't see much of that, unfortunately, in the game, but we do see glimpses of it in the EC slides.

Experiencing "normality" is much more a part of the journey now, rather than an end point.

Or "never experiencing normality" is a possible tragic endpoint, but in the "happy ending," it is more like a passage or transitional experience.

Modifié par flemm, 25 novembre 2013 - 04:44 .

[in it for the lolz]

Did someone say Miranda Lawson?!

[Rasofe]

Maybe it's just because Miranda safely stayed alive and well in my first playthrough, I seriously never got the vibe that traditionalistic normality was even a topic. Sure, she died in my second playthrough, as she will unfortunately in my second second playthrough today, but people say desperate things when they're dying. I never saw the whole family thing as more than examples and the bit with her not being able to be pregnant is more of a footnote - like Kaidan's L2 implants. It doesn't mean that Miranda's always wanted to settle down. It does mean that she feels resentment because she wasn't given the option.

I think it makes Miranda more realistic that she'd see the grass on the other side of the fence as greener (whichever fence you choose, flemm got them both pretty right) and isn't at all a character flaw.