522 réponses à ce sujet

[Rasofe]

Sooo anyway, while I was beating the Fatal Error challenge with only Miranda as a squaddie, a thought struck me: what if this isn't the real Miranda but just a simulation?

I'll let the nature of that question sink in for a minute.

Anyway, after completing Citadel with Femshep (with Miranda unfortunately dead) I can safely say that since she's not available on Armax, she's probably not a simulation, besides being fictional. And I think there was a law against impersonating people - alive or dead - with a VI without likeness contracts or something.
Nice of them to make sure the answer was "no". For those who actually asked the question.

[ImaginaryMatter]

GHNR wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Cerberus and the Council are both incompetent fools.

Oh god, here we go...

Well considering that 100% of Cerberus' experiments fail miserably or end up killing humans and their own personnel. Ya, I would say Cerberus is pretty incompetent. How they continuously receive funding is beyond me.

[Rasofe]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

GHNR wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Cerberus and the Council are both incompetent fools.

Oh god, here we go...

Well considering that 100% of Cerberus' experiments fail miserably or end up killing humans and their own personnel. Ya, I would say Cerberus is pretty incompetent. How they continuously receive funding is beyond me.

1. Shepard brought back.
2. SR2 built.
3. "Suicide" Mission is a success.
4. All the vast economic funding to make it possible.
They're more competent than the council, and the Alliance only got their damn act together when the Reapers showed up. Couldn't even hold proper against Collectors or Geth (Pylos Nebula comes to mind) without Shepard's help. Hackett made it better - much better - but consider that most of the time failure and mistakes are not signs of incompetence. It's ignoring that said failures or mistakes ever happened that makes someone incompetent.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

CronoDragoon wrote...

What? It's true.

Not as much as the alliance.

[Darks1d3]

 Oh here we go again.

[CronoDragoon]

Rasofe wrote...
3. "Suicide" Mission is a success.

Only if you decide to keep the base, otherwise I can't see how TIM considers it one. In this case the failure was ensured by his own right-hand woman (ON TOPIC YUSS) turning against him to support his idealogical enemy. Classic Cerberus.

And yeah, perhaps the Alliance is as/more incompetent as Cerberus. Then again, perhaps not. At the end of ME3 only one organization still exists.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 27 novembre 2013 - 06:56 .

[Rasofe]

Yes. The only organisation that exists is the Galactic Imperium, headed by Shepard and Lawson, with the Turian Hierarchy now a faction acting as the primary galactic state police of said Imperium and the Krogan as the military. Meanwhile humanity experiences a new, Platinum Age as Volus, Asari, Quarians, and Salarians have to pay extra "We saved your butts" tax. The Alliance is no more.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rasofe wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

GHNR wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Cerberus and the Council are both incompetent fools.

Oh god, here we go...

Well considering that 100% of Cerberus' experiments fail miserably or end up killing humans and their own personnel. Ya, I would say Cerberus is pretty incompetent. How they continuously receive funding is beyond me.

1. Shepard brought back.
2. SR2 built.
3. "Suicide" Mission is a success.
4. All the vast economic funding to make it possible.
They're more competent than the council, and the Alliance only got their damn act together when the Reapers showed up. Couldn't even hold proper against Collectors or Geth (Pylos Nebula comes to mind) without Shepard's help. Hackett made it better - much better - but consider that most of the time failure and mistakes are not signs of incompetence. It's ignoring that said failures or mistakes ever happened that makes someone incompetent.

Can you honestly say that everything Cerberus did was a failure?

1. Rachni warriors. A mistake, and admitted as such by Miranda, due to underestimating the intelligence and cognitive abilities of the Rachni.

2. Thorian Creepers. An indirect experiment done on behalf of Cerberus by ExoGeni, and a successful one until events beyond Cerberus or ExoGeni's control (namely the Geth invasion on Feros and Shepard killing the Thorian) caused the Creepers to go insane and attack.

3. Husk experimentation. We don't have the context of the entire experiment, and we don't know what Cerberus was trying to accomplish. Without a named goal, we can't label this as a success or failure based on Cerberus alone. Ultimately, it did fail, but it was due to Shepard's intervention, not due to any experimental crises shown. Granted, Cerberus would've done better to keep their information even more tightly secured.

4. Akuze. My Shepard was the only survivor, and we of course have no information on Cerberus' goals or motive. This cannot be distinguished as a success or failure without information in mind.

5. Lazarus. Unquestionably a success.

6. Overlord. From a purely technical standpoint, the project, despite the costs in personnel, did indeed achieve a way to control the Geth. It achieved its purpose, even if it was in a semi-rogue state. I'd label it a partial success.

7. Teltin: The purpose of this was to create enhanced biotic capability in humans. This succeeded. Jack was created to be an ultra-powerful biotic, and she is indeed an ultra-powerful biotic. Even though the facility was rogue, I would still call it a partial success due to accomplishing its goal.

8. Firewalker: A success, even though it was internally betrayed by a scientist who sold out the project to the Collectors. The Geth also heavily interfered with the project. However, the Hammerhead was field-tested and approved, and the Prothean artifact was recovered and studied, though much of the information was simply beyond the ability to be understood to modern science.

9. The Derelict Reaper: A success. The Reaper IFF was recovered and direct information about the Reapers themselves was gleaned from the derelict Reaper, even at the cost of the crew. Also, the weapon used by the civilization that destroyed the Reaper was recovered.

Name any others?

[Rasofe]

No, and I didnt say that everything Cerberus did was a failure. So leave me alone.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rasofe wrote...

No, and I didnt say that everything Cerberus did was a failure. So leave me alone.

I'm not attacking you. I'm affirming what you said. I'm supporting your point.

The alliance is bloody incompetent and useless in my book. The only thing keeping me from joining Cerberus in ME3 is indeed a conflict of interest, something I am legitimately saddened for. 

People like Ashley Williams don't do anything but make me think even less of the alliance.

[Rasofe]

Kaidan is cool though. He keeps an open mind toward things like Cerberus potentially being good at one point, and other things like Geth and Leviathan.
Kaidan embraces the central theme of expanding horizons, Ash rejects it completely. Whenever there's a revelation, she puts her head in the sand and ignores it.
Not much point to keeping a character like that around in a game which is all about reacting to expanding horizons IMHO.

If you're going to agree with me, don't open up with an aggressive "Can you honestly X?".

Modifié par Rasofe, 27 novembre 2013 - 07:23 .

[CronoDragoon]

Lazarus was a success, no doubt about it. I'm not sure TIM ever regretted the decision, except maybe after I put a bullet in him at the end.

[Rasofe]

Considering my main Shepard convinced him to end himself (and will again this time), I think he died with more pressing regretts than bringing Shepard back to life.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rasofe wrote...

Kaidan is cool though. He keeps an open mind toward things like Cerberus potentially being good at one point, and other things like Geth and Leviathan.
Kaidan embraces the central theme of expanding horizons, Ash rejects it completely. Whenever there's a revelation, she puts her head in the sand and ignores it.
Not much point to keeping a character like that around in a game which is all about reacting to expanding horizons IMHO.

If you're going to agree with me, don't open up with an aggressive "Can you honestly X?".

I won't lie, Kaidan does deserve better than the alliance. I honestly never saw how his whole 'I'm an alliance soldier' thing came in. He was never really like that to begin with.

Ashley clings to her dogmatic alliance ideology and sense of morally absolute self-righteousness. 

As for me agreeing with you, how about you not get pooper peeved over an opening statement. It wasn't aggressive, nor was it intended as such. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Lazarus was a success, no doubt about it. I'm not sure TIM ever regretted the decision, except maybe after I put a bullet in him at the end.

I doubt it. He knows in the end, even if you do shoot him, that you are indeed doing what he brought you back to do.

I only shoot him so I don't have to talk to Anderscum.

[Rasofe]

Kaidan's an alliance soldier reasons are mostly built up in ME1. He doesn't like cutting corners, is a bit of a space romantic, and is a career biotic. I think he works as a great pure good-guy compliment to just about any Shepard. His reasons aren't bad, but his obedience makes him a little inept at making tough decisions.
'Course some people like Ash make tough decisions badly, which is much worse.

[ImaginaryMatter]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Rasofe wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

GHNR wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Cerberus and the Council are both incompetent fools.

Oh god, here we go...

Well considering that 100% of Cerberus' experiments fail miserably or end up killing humans and their own personnel. Ya, I would say Cerberus is pretty incompetent. How they continuously receive funding is beyond me.

1. Shepard brought back.
2. SR2 built.
3. "Suicide" Mission is a success.
4. All the vast economic funding to make it possible.
They're more competent than the council, and the Alliance only got their damn act together when the Reapers showed up. Couldn't even hold proper against Collectors or Geth (Pylos Nebula comes to mind) without Shepard's help. Hackett made it better - much better - but consider that most of the time failure and mistakes are not signs of incompetence. It's ignoring that said failures or mistakes ever happened that makes someone incompetent.

Can you honestly say that everything Cerberus did was a failure?

1. Rachni warriors. A mistake, and admitted as such by Miranda, due to underestimating the intelligence and cognitive abilities of the Rachni.

2. Thorian Creepers. An indirect experiment done on behalf of Cerberus by ExoGeni, and a successful one until events beyond Cerberus or ExoGeni's control (namely the Geth invasion on Feros and Shepard killing the Thorian) caused the Creepers to go insane and attack.

3. Husk experimentation. We don't have the context of the entire experiment, and we don't know what Cerberus was trying to accomplish. Without a named goal, we can't label this as a success or failure based on Cerberus alone. Ultimately, it did fail, but it was due to Shepard's intervention, not due to any experimental crises shown. Granted, Cerberus would've done better to keep their information even more tightly secured.

4. Akuze. My Shepard was the only survivor, and we of course have no information on Cerberus' goals or motive. This cannot be distinguished as a success or failure without information in mind.

5. Lazarus. Unquestionably a success.

6. Overlord. From a purely technical standpoint, the project, despite the costs in personnel, did indeed achieve a way to control the Geth. It achieved its purpose, even if it was in a semi-rogue state. I'd label it a partial success.

7. Teltin: The purpose of this was to create enhanced biotic capability in humans. This succeeded. Jack was created to be an ultra-powerful biotic, and she is indeed an ultra-powerful biotic. Even though the facility was rogue, I would still call it a partial success due to accomplishing its goal.

8. Firewalker: A success, even though it was internally betrayed by a scientist who sold out the project to the Collectors. The Geth also heavily interfered with the project. However, the Hammerhead was field-tested and approved, and the Prothean artifact was recovered and studied, though much of the information was simply beyond the ability to be understood to modern science.

9. The Derelict Reaper: A success. The Reaper IFF was recovered and direct information about the Reapers themselves was gleaned from the derelict Reaper, even at the cost of the crew. Also, the weapon used by the civilization that destroyed the Reaper was recovered.

Name any others?

Sorry for the confusion, I meant 100% chance that Cerberus experiments accomplished one or more of the following: failure, human deaths, or personnel deaths and destruction of property.

My disdain for Cerberus doesn't stem from the group's or TIM's believes, but from how Cerberus is a fundamentally different group in each game because of writer fiat, they basically keep the name and that's it (so I guess it's more of a dislike for the writing). The contrivances really start piling up whenever these guys show up. As I said before I find it very telling that Shepard isn't really allowed to bring up the group's past actions from ME1, there is that brief conversation with Miranda, in which she basically just hand waves everything.

So, because of all that I basically view them as a joke and act like Shepard is another experiment which broke loose and killed all their guys. And this:

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 27 novembre 2013 - 10:02 .

[Rotward]

Ryzaki wrote...

Rotward wrote...

Maranda Lawson thinks that the lone survivor of akuze shouldn't be mad because the annihilation of his or her entire squad wasn't personal.

This is why I've never offered her alliance intel, should she survive me2.

Wait what? She said that? When? 

No, no, that's her excuse for Cerberus attacking the quarians. I suspect she would use the same excuse, if Shepard were ever ALLOWED to address akuze. What that says about her personality, and morals, is that she places no value on life. She thought the quarians were mad about the attack on their ships because they felt insulted. She didn't get that they took issue with the loss of life. 

Someone who values pride over life is evil beyond redemption. She just has no concept of morality. 

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

She had nothing to do with it anyway. Why hold it against her personally? She put in 2 years of her life to bring you back to life. 

Hell, my sole survivor Shepard outright approves of the action once he learns its true purpose. He holds blame on the alliance for it, since it was under their action at the time.

Cerberus is entirely responsible for their actions on Akuze, but I agree, the Alliance should also be held responsible. Many of Cerberus' crimes occured before Cerberus went rogue, and I would see the Alliance pay too. What purpose are you refering to, exactly, other than studying the thresher maws? I've not found a direct explanation during my playthroughs. 

As for Miranda, she spent two years following the Illusive man's orders. She wanted Shepard as a slave, a tool, nothing more. She, before working with Shepard, is even worse than the Illusive man. We don't actually know if she was part of Akuze, but she WAS part of cerberus, and is clearly in the Science division. She certainly has no reserves over what was done, and continues to defend Cerberus even after defecting. 

Modifié par Rotward, 27 novembre 2013 - 10:13 .

[GHNR]

CronoDragoon wrote...

What? It's true.

Sorry, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was mainly referring to how this would stir up the "Cerberus aren't terrorists, and is a great organization" debate. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rotward wrote...

Cerberus is entirely responsible for their actions on Akuze, but I agree, the Alliance should also be held responsible. Many of Cerberus' crimes occured before Cerberus went rogue, and I would see the Alliance pay too. What purpose are you refering to, exactly, other than studying the thresher maws? I've not found a direct explanation during my playthroughs.

What I'm saying is that you can't condemn Cerberus actions without having them in context. Can you make an argument for why what they did was objectively bad? 

As for Miranda, she spent two years following the Illusive man's orders.

They're perfectly good orders to boot. Why is this a problem?

She wanted Shepard as a slave, a tool, nothing more.

And the alliance is any better? They and the council cast him aside and swept him under the rug when he became an inconvenience while simultaneously using his image as a propaganda and recruitment tool to serve their own purpose. Anyways, Miranda is logical in explaining how this actually was advantageous in her idea.

I'd do the same thing myself.

She, before working with Shepard, is even worse than the Illusive man.

That is a very bold proclamation.

We don't actually know if she was part of Akuze, but she WAS part of cerberus, and is clearly in the Science division.

Higher, she was the Illusive Man's right-hand woman and top lieutenant, probably being groomed to be his successor.

What's the problem?

She certainly has no reserves over what was done, and continues to defend Cerberus even after defecting. 

Ah, here it is; I take it you aren't a moral relativist, and you don't believe in Cerberus' goals?

My Shepard has no reserves over anything Cerberus has done, and defends them too. I do. I think Cerberus is justified in their methods so long as the goals they make are met. Morality is a petty notion of two very subjective terms called good and evil that don't exist beyond an abstract level. 

If what Cerberus does helps humanity in the long run (it does), then I'm all for it. Doesn't matter what it is.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Rotward wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Rotward wrote...

Maranda Lawson thinks that the lone survivor of akuze shouldn't be mad because the annihilation of his or her entire squad wasn't personal.

This is why I've never offered her alliance intel, should she survive me2.

Wait what? She said that? When? 

No, no, that's her excuse for Cerberus attacking the quarians.

I think Cerberus is perfectly justified in what they did to the Quarians. They're an unstable element with unstable leadership. I don't trust them. I want to know what they're up to, and I want to know why they're taking an interest in the Geth again.

I suspect she would use the same excuse, if Shepard were ever ALLOWED to address akuze.

This is a genetic fallacy. You're hating Miranda due to some misplaced notion of anger over an event of which you have no context over beyond its existence.

What that says about her personality, and morals, is that she places no value on life.

Beyond them being strategic resources, I don't either. Life has no objective value. 

She thought the quarians were mad about the attack on their ships because they felt insulted. She didn't get that they took issue with the loss of life.

That's false entirely. This is a strawman and a genetic fallacy over Miranda's words.

Someone who values pride over life is evil beyond redemption. She just has no concept of morality. 

This is especially dogmatic and self-righteous (as well as completely false). Can you give me an objective description of morality please? And why I have to buy into it?

Morality is abstract. Relative. It doesn't matter. It's a human concept created to give words and meaning to acts that we find appealing or distasteful.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

GHNR wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

What? It's true.

Sorry, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was mainly referring to how this would stir up the "Cerberus aren't terrorists, and is a great organization" debate. 

Unfettered, Well-Intentioned Extremists who are above Good vs. Evil, and have a truly noble goal, and are willing to play dirty to achieve their ends.

That's Cerberus.

I wholeheartedly approve.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

StreetMagic wrote...

The whole Akuze thing is just dropping the ball. Whoever wrote this stuff must've never played default Shepard. My only guess. I try not to read into it too much, storywise.

They tried to make up for the mistake later with Vasir telling you what a ****** you are for it. I can appreciate that. For me, I can use it as a sort of starting point for my Shepard to finally start getting pissed about it. Like maybe before, he was trying to convince himself the mission was too important to let it get in the way.

I'm pissed I can't say anything to Vasir about agreeing with her. The only reason I'm shooting her is because she tried to shoot me.