Well they were harboring an apostate and contray to what they think they aren't above the law of the land and what was said was the Templars tortured a young hunter to the Dalish when you become a hunter you're a man so the Templars didn't exactly torture a kid in that context still wasn't nice but no one ever said the Templars are nice.LobselVith8 wrote...
DPSSOC wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Meredith didn't restrict herself to mages when she became dictator over the entire city, and I can only imagine what her death squad did. Also, her templars tortured a child who wasn't related to a mage to get information on Feynriel.
Meredith wasn't brutalizing anyone who wasn't a mage or harbouring one. She grossly overstepped her bounds but I didn't get the impression that anything changed in the day to day life of your average Kirkwaller. The shops were still running and as long as you weren't a mage or related to and harbouring one it was business as usual. Again my impressions I don't really hear all the little side talk among the NPCs (unless something catches my attention it's just white noise) so I may have missed something.
Can't say I know what you're talking about with Feynriel. When does this happen?
Act II, Dalish camp, prior to "Night Terrors," if Feynriel went to the Dalish.
Are you with the Templars or Mages
Débuté par
Karlone123
, sept. 10 2012 11:26
#51
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 06:33
Shadow Fox
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Retour en haut
#52
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 08:02
Adrian68b
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In both DAO and DA2 I always sided with the mages.
In this imaginary world, mages are the closest individuals to scientists. Just remember Avernus in DAO. Despite his extremely cruel methods, he attempted to study darkspawn blood, trying to understand darkspawn origin. In a world threatened by an extinguishing danger, playing the ignorant and being proud to be ignorant is the purest possible imbecility.
Of course mages are dangerous. So are the kings, emperors, templars... everyone with power. I read all three Dragon Age books, and for me Ferelden occupation by Orlais seemed worst than any blood mage. So why the Chantry only sanction mages and never bloodthirsty or psychotic rulers ? Simple. Religion always side with secular power.
Of course, the Chantry was a reaction against Tevinter depravity. But remember, was ruled by power crazy magisters, not ordinary mages. In DA world, being a mage only means having some additional abilities. Of course these abilities could be dangerous, and that`s why they need teaching and a moral system.
But imprisoning or killing them is not a solution. It`s like forcing by law an imprisonement or death sentence to everyone with an IQ greater than 130. Just because they are potential scientists or inventors capable of creating dangerous weapons.
In this imaginary world, mages are the closest individuals to scientists. Just remember Avernus in DAO. Despite his extremely cruel methods, he attempted to study darkspawn blood, trying to understand darkspawn origin. In a world threatened by an extinguishing danger, playing the ignorant and being proud to be ignorant is the purest possible imbecility.
Of course mages are dangerous. So are the kings, emperors, templars... everyone with power. I read all three Dragon Age books, and for me Ferelden occupation by Orlais seemed worst than any blood mage. So why the Chantry only sanction mages and never bloodthirsty or psychotic rulers ? Simple. Religion always side with secular power.
Of course, the Chantry was a reaction against Tevinter depravity. But remember, was ruled by power crazy magisters, not ordinary mages. In DA world, being a mage only means having some additional abilities. Of course these abilities could be dangerous, and that`s why they need teaching and a moral system.
But imprisoning or killing them is not a solution. It`s like forcing by law an imprisonement or death sentence to everyone with an IQ greater than 130. Just because they are potential scientists or inventors capable of creating dangerous weapons.
#53
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 08:03
babymoon
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Mages. You could not pay me to ever side with the Templars.
#54
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 08:05
Realmzmaster
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In my case it depends on the Hawke I wish to play. Right now I am playing a Mage Hawke who hates his gift. He sees the gift as a curse to the point that he envies Carver. At the same time he does not want to be a wimp in combat so he works on his magic. He is also training to improve his strength and cunning.
Mage Hawke becomes even more disfranchised with magic after the death of his mother.
I have also played a Hawke that wanted to rise to power to take over the Viscount position and let nothing get in her way. So for me it depends on the Hawke I feel like playing.
Mage Hawke becomes even more disfranchised with magic after the death of his mother.
I have also played a Hawke that wanted to rise to power to take over the Viscount position and let nothing get in her way. So for me it depends on the Hawke I feel like playing.
#55
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 08:20
Dave of Canada
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Templar, don't see reason or logic in siding with the mages.
#56
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 09:13
LolaLei
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Mages so far, but we'll see what DA3 turns out like before I decide who I side with this time round.
#57
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 10:01
LobselVith8
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Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Act II, Dalish camp, prior to "Night Terrors," if Feynriel went to the Dalish.
Well they were harboring an apostate and contray to what they think they aren't above the law of the land
With that line of reasoning, Leandra could be tortured about Bethany or apostate Hawke.
Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
and what was said was the Templars tortured a young hunter to the Dalish when you become a hunter you're a man so the Templars didn't exactly torture a kid in that context still wasn't nice but no one ever said the Templars are nice.
Da'len means child; the templars tortured one of their "da'len hunters."
#58
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 11:02
DPSSOC
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LobselVith8 wrote...
DPSSOC wrote...
Meredith wasn't brutalizing anyone who wasn't a mage or harbouring one. She grossly overstepped her bounds but I didn't get the impression that anything changed in the day to day life of your average Kirkwaller. The shops were still running and as long as you weren't a mage or related to and harbouring one it was business as usual. Again my impressions I don't really hear all the little side talk among the NPCs (unless something catches my attention it's just white noise) so I may have missed something.
Can't say I know what you're talking about with Feynriel. When does this happen?
Act II, Dalish camp, prior to "Night Terrors," if Feynriel went to the Dalish.
Ah. While terrible that still falls under mages and those harbouring them. Not attempting to justify it however my point remains that the Templars, even when all but gibbering mad, focus on mages and those who aid them. Kirkwall shows us the Templars at their worst, or damn near, and it's honestly not that bad. Dont get me wrong what happens is terrible, but compared to human beings being sacrificed so some mage lord can entertain his guests?
LobselVith8 wrote...
Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
and what was said was the Templars tortured a young hunter to the Dalish when you become a hunter you're a man so the Templars didn't exactly torture a kid in that context still wasn't nice but no one ever said the Templars are nice.
Da'len means child; the templars tortured one of their "da'len hunters."
Both the Dalish Warden and Merril are referred to as Da'len I think you might be taking the term too literally.
#59
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 11:50
Shadow Fox
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Yes she could have aren't you glad that it was Cullen who respected Hawke that arrested Bethany?LobselVith8 wrote...
Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Act II, Dalish camp, prior to "Night Terrors," if Feynriel went to the Dalish.
Well they were harboring an apostate and contray to what they think they aren't above the law of the land
With that line of reasoning, Leandra could be tortured about Bethany or apostate Hawke.
Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
and what was said was the Templars tortured a young hunter to the Dalish when you become a hunter you're a man so the Templars didn't exactly torture a kid in that context still wasn't nice but no one ever said the Templars are nice.
Da'len means child; the templars tortured one of their "da'len hunters."
#60
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 11:55
Adrian68b
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"Kirkwall shows us the Templars at their worst, or damn near, and it's honestly not that bad. Dont get me wrong what happens is terrible, but compared to human beings being sacrificed so some mage lord can entertain his guests?"
Well, it's like the story of the king who decided: every subject of my kingdom must lose one eye. When one of his best soldiers, who lost one eye in battle protested, he just said: I cannot make any exceptions, do I?
In my opinion, the problem is not how brutal the templars are, but their mission. If I'm correct, in DAO there was a lore about templars being initialy an order of Inquisitors, who killed every mage on sight.
It's simply the tyranny of power. The Chantry logic it's like: "The magisters were evil AND they were mages, so every mage is evil". Please notice that tyranny is always against OTHERS. The Chantry will never send every king in seclusion because of an evil king.
Just think about Loghain and his actions in DAO. His hatred and fear (possibly justified) about another Orlesian rule of Ferelden almost destroyed the kingdom. Was the Chantry even protesting against his actions? Of course not. Could the Chantry and the Templars defend Thedas from the darkspawn and especially the Archdemon? Of course not. So, how evil or dangerous is a mage Grey Warden, for instance? Several of my characters in DAO were mages.
Well, it's like the story of the king who decided: every subject of my kingdom must lose one eye. When one of his best soldiers, who lost one eye in battle protested, he just said: I cannot make any exceptions, do I?
In my opinion, the problem is not how brutal the templars are, but their mission. If I'm correct, in DAO there was a lore about templars being initialy an order of Inquisitors, who killed every mage on sight.
It's simply the tyranny of power. The Chantry logic it's like: "The magisters were evil AND they were mages, so every mage is evil". Please notice that tyranny is always against OTHERS. The Chantry will never send every king in seclusion because of an evil king.
Just think about Loghain and his actions in DAO. His hatred and fear (possibly justified) about another Orlesian rule of Ferelden almost destroyed the kingdom. Was the Chantry even protesting against his actions? Of course not. Could the Chantry and the Templars defend Thedas from the darkspawn and especially the Archdemon? Of course not. So, how evil or dangerous is a mage Grey Warden, for instance? Several of my characters in DAO were mages.
Modifié par Adrian68b, 17 septembre 2012 - 12:49 .
#61
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 01:43
Shadow Fox
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Most people did'nt even know of Loghain's crimes until the Landsmeet So why would they? And actually the Templars/Seekers could to the best of most people's knowledge anyone can kill a darkspawn a Warden's only needed to sacrifice themselves to kill an archdemon during a blight.Adrian68b wrote...
"Kirkwall shows us the Templars at their worst, or damn near, and it's honestly not that bad. Dont get me wrong what happens is terrible, but compared to human beings being sacrificed so some mage lord can entertain his guests?"
Well, it's like the story of the king who decided: every subject of my kingdom must lose one eye. When one of his best soldiers, who lost one eye in battle protested, he just said: I cannot make any exceptions, do I?
In my opinion, the problem is not how brutal the templars are, but their mission. If I'm correct, in DAO there was a lore about templars being initialy an order of Inquisitors, who killed every mage on sight.
It's simply the tyranny of power. The Chantry logic it's like: "The magisters were evil AND they were mages, so every mage is evil". Please notice that tyranny is always against OTHERS. The Chantry will never send every king in seclusion because of an evil king.
Just think about Loghain and his actions in DAO. His hatred and fear (possibly justified) about another Orlesian rule of Ferelden almost destroyed the kingdom. Was the Chantry even protesting against his actions? Of course not. Could the Chantry and the Templars defend Thedas from the darkspawn and especially the Archdemon? Of course not. So, how evil or dangerous is a mage Grey Warden, for instance? Several of my characters in DAO were mages.
And you do know that just being a Warden doesn't make you good or a hero right? Actually Wardens aren't even supposed to invole themselves into politcal affairs like the Landsmeet they're just a necessary evil like the Circle. And yes without someone to police them chances are high that there would be another Tevinter because the mages would have nothing to fear and unfortunately the only ones who can police the mages are the Templars.
#62
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 02:43
LobselVith8
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DPSSOC wrote...
Both the Dalish Warden and Merril are referred to as Da'len I think you might be taking the term too literally.
By Marethari, who is Keeper and over 100 years old; this was said by a hunter who looked no older than Hawke, not the surrogate mother of the entire clan.
Arcane Warrior Mage wrote...
Yes she could have aren't you glad that it was Cullen who respected Hawke that arrested Bethany?
To a Circle where Hawke knew mages were being made tranquil illegally? I thought Hawke should have killed Cullen and the single templar accompanying him. Better to leave Kirkwall than throw Bethany to the wolves; this is why I abandoned my rogue Hawke run.
#63
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 06:07
Shadow Fox
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You do realize that would have been incrediblly stupid and gotten you and your family killed right?LobselVith8 wrote...
DPSSOC wrote...
Both the Dalish Warden and Merril are referred to as Da'len I think you might be taking the term too literally.
By Marethari, who is Keeper and over 100 years old; this was said by a hunter who looked no older than Hawke, not the surrogate mother of the entire clan.Arcane Warrior Mage wrote...
Yes she could have aren't you glad that it was Cullen who respected Hawke that arrested Bethany?
To a Circle where Hawke knew mages were being made tranquil illegally? I thought Hawke should have killed Cullen and the single templar accompanying him. Better to leave Kirkwall than throw Bethany to the wolves; this is why I abandoned my rogue Hawke run.
#64
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 07:30
Adrian68b
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"And you do know that just being a Warden doesn't make you good or a hero right?"
Exactly my point. I asked these questions because status or innate ability is not by default good or evil. In my opinion Loghain was the tragic figure of DAO. I think he was right to suspect that a big number of selfish chevaliers entering Ferelden will lead ultimately to another conquest by Orlais. And Celene would have accepted it, because otherwise she would have turn the cevaliers against her. Politics, of course. But his actions were all bad.
Except the Grey Wardens, nobody seem to know anything useful about darkspawn and their behavior. And nobody else care. Cailan, Loghain, the templars aren't interested at all about darkspawn behavior or the existence of an Archdemon.
So does all that make Loghain, Cailan, Celene, the templars and the wardens good or evil? In my opinion, their actions are bad enough, worst than a mage turning into an abomination.
You said the templars are needed to police the mages. But who policed Loghain, for instance?
Exactly my point. I asked these questions because status or innate ability is not by default good or evil. In my opinion Loghain was the tragic figure of DAO. I think he was right to suspect that a big number of selfish chevaliers entering Ferelden will lead ultimately to another conquest by Orlais. And Celene would have accepted it, because otherwise she would have turn the cevaliers against her. Politics, of course. But his actions were all bad.
Except the Grey Wardens, nobody seem to know anything useful about darkspawn and their behavior. And nobody else care. Cailan, Loghain, the templars aren't interested at all about darkspawn behavior or the existence of an Archdemon.
So does all that make Loghain, Cailan, Celene, the templars and the wardens good or evil? In my opinion, their actions are bad enough, worst than a mage turning into an abomination.
You said the templars are needed to police the mages. But who policed Loghain, for instance?
Modifié par Adrian68b, 17 septembre 2012 - 07:38 .
#65
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 07:56
Adrian68b
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An example from the real world: Einstein was the one who put in motion the creation of the atomic bomb, but also the beginning of electronics (by his article about photoelectric effect). So was he good or evil?
What about Giordano Bruno? He stated that Earth moves around the Sun, and for this he was burned at stake by the church in 1600. His public condemnation (heresy) was canceled only around 1975. Was he good or evil. By the church standards, he was evil personified.
What about Giordano Bruno? He stated that Earth moves around the Sun, and for this he was burned at stake by the church in 1600. His public condemnation (heresy) was canceled only around 1975. Was he good or evil. By the church standards, he was evil personified.
#67
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 01:13
cindercatz
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Personally, mages 99% (don't support the Tevinter alternative either)
My characters will go both ways depending on the character, assuming we get multiple origins and divergent stories like DA:O. My wardens came down on both sides. In DA2, all of my Hawkes will be pro-mage. I can't see a compelling reason any of them would ever be pro-templar.
My characters will go both ways depending on the character, assuming we get multiple origins and divergent stories like DA:O. My wardens came down on both sides. In DA2, all of my Hawkes will be pro-mage. I can't see a compelling reason any of them would ever be pro-templar.
#68
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 01:36
LobselVith8
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Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
You do realize that would have been incrediblly stupid and gotten you and your family killed right?
Considering Hawke kills templars in Act II without getting caught, I don't agree. Hawke can kill two templars, then leave Kirkwall with Bethany.
#69
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 06:02
Shadow Fox
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Even if we assume Hawke can kill Cullen and his templars*I refuse to believe he would go to that house without any backup* on thier own*which I doubt try fighting a boss on your own without help and tell me how that works out for you* what makes you think Meredith would let that go who would be stupid enough to take them out of the city with a pissed off Knight Commander after their heads?And then that's not even accounting for the fact that that your unarmed mother and uncle are in the house would you risk their safety by going against your sister's wishes?LobselVith8 wrote...
Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
You do realize that would have been incrediblly stupid and gotten you and your family killed right?
Considering Hawke kills templars in Act II without getting caught, I don't agree. Hawke can kill two templars, then leave Kirkwall with Bethany.
#70
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 06:04
Ryzaki
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Is neither an option?
They both can be bullheaded idiots. Templars are way to overzealous and mages are just too dangerous for me to buy that "I just want to live like a normal person!" act. You're not normal deal with it. On the other hand that doesn't give people the right to treat you like an animal either.
That said in game I sided with templars. They may be drug addicted zealots but at least they have a gameplan other than "and then we'll be free!" (with no resources or training for the horde of mages that'll join us.)
They both can be bullheaded idiots. Templars are way to overzealous and mages are just too dangerous for me to buy that "I just want to live like a normal person!" act. You're not normal deal with it. On the other hand that doesn't give people the right to treat you like an animal either.
That said in game I sided with templars. They may be drug addicted zealots but at least they have a gameplan other than "and then we'll be free!" (with no resources or training for the horde of mages that'll join us.)
Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 septembre 2012 - 06:06 .
#71
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 06:14
Shadow Fox
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Again nobody knew of Loghain's crimes and even then without any evidence it becomes your words against his and like I said Loghain's a war hero and the Grey Wardens are distrusted by all of Ferelden who would they believe?Adrian68b wrote...
"And you do know that just being a Warden doesn't make you good or a hero right?"
Exactly my point. I asked these questions because status or innate ability is not by default good or evil. In my opinion Loghain was the tragic figure of DAO. I think he was right to suspect that a big number of selfish chevaliers entering Ferelden will lead ultimately to another conquest by Orlais. And Celene would have accepted it, because otherwise she would have turn the cevaliers against her. Politics, of course. But his actions were all bad.
Except the Grey Wardens, nobody seem to know anything useful about darkspawn and their behavior. And nobody else care. Cailan, Loghain, the templars aren't interested at all about darkspawn behavior or the existence of an Archdemon.
So does all that make Loghain, Cailan, Celene, the templars and the wardens good or evil? In my opinion, their actions are bad enough, worst than a mage turning into an abomination.
You said the templars are needed to police the mages. But who policed Loghain, for instance?
They're hardly alone in that all of Ferelden didn't believe there was an actual blight untill the Archdemon showed up.
Except an abomination is a mindless monster that only kills and destroys or a demon that only kills and destroys.
Templars police mages because they are dangerous*basicly living weapons* not because they are inherently evil.
#72
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 07:32
eye basher
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The templars better the devil i know than the one i don't.
#73
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 07:36
Adrian68b
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Here is the final of Italo Calvino's novel, "Invisible Cities". It is also my opinion.
‘The inferno of the living is not something that will be; if there is one, it is what is already here, the inferno where we live every day, that we form by being together. There are two ways to escape suffering it. The first is easy for many: accept the inferno and become such a part of it that you can no longer see it. The second is risky and demands constant vigilance and apprehension: seek and learn to recognize who and what, in the midst of the inferno, are not inferno, then make them endure, give them space.’
About Loghain and Grey Wardens: there is no need for the Archdemon to show up, as long as the darkspawn were already raiding Ferelden. Maybe the Wardens aren't trusted yet, but they are known as the best fighters against darkspawn.
The Orlesian emperor and his cronies were a much better killing machine than any demon during the Ferelden occupation. You don't need to be a demon or abomination to became a monster. The memory of orlesian devastation was still fresh in Ferelden and that explain Loghain actions or the general distrust of Orlesians.
‘The inferno of the living is not something that will be; if there is one, it is what is already here, the inferno where we live every day, that we form by being together. There are two ways to escape suffering it. The first is easy for many: accept the inferno and become such a part of it that you can no longer see it. The second is risky and demands constant vigilance and apprehension: seek and learn to recognize who and what, in the midst of the inferno, are not inferno, then make them endure, give them space.’
About Loghain and Grey Wardens: there is no need for the Archdemon to show up, as long as the darkspawn were already raiding Ferelden. Maybe the Wardens aren't trusted yet, but they are known as the best fighters against darkspawn.
The Orlesian emperor and his cronies were a much better killing machine than any demon during the Ferelden occupation. You don't need to be a demon or abomination to became a monster. The memory of orlesian devastation was still fresh in Ferelden and that explain Loghain actions or the general distrust of Orlesians.
#74
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 07:50
Adrian68b
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So, in your opinion, the best thing Alistair and the PC could do in DAO is to kill themselves and leave Ferelden at the mercy of darkspawn, just because nobody believe them about the Blight and the Archdemon. And also every mage in Thedas must kill himself, because he/she is a monster.
Everyone could became a monster, in DA world or in ours. Just remember the ****s, for instance.
I remember that in the mage origin, at the end of Harrowing, the PC could easily recognize the temptation of the pride demon. So, as I said, moral mages are protected; the real problem is about imoral mages, as with imoral templars as well. As I recall from DAO lore, the chantry choses templars based of their obedience to the Chantry (blind obedience, if possible). They are chosen to not question orders. This is exactly what the obedient ****s did; this is the way to became a monster.
Everyone could became a monster, in DA world or in ours. Just remember the ****s, for instance.
I remember that in the mage origin, at the end of Harrowing, the PC could easily recognize the temptation of the pride demon. So, as I said, moral mages are protected; the real problem is about imoral mages, as with imoral templars as well. As I recall from DAO lore, the chantry choses templars based of their obedience to the Chantry (blind obedience, if possible). They are chosen to not question orders. This is exactly what the obedient ****s did; this is the way to became a monster.
#75
Posté 17 septembre 2012 - 07:51
Shadow Fox
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Again anyone can kill a Darkspawn in DA2 Hawke mows down Darkspawn despite being an average joe a Warden is only needed to kill an Archdemon so it doesn't revive it's self so why should they rely on the Wardens when they don't know why a Warden's needed to end a blight in the first place?Adrian68b wrote...
Here is the final of Italo Calvino's novel, "Invisible Cities". It is also my opinion.
‘The inferno of the living is not something that will be; if there is one, it is what is already here, the inferno where we live every day, that we form by being together. There are two ways to escape suffering it. The first is easy for many: accept the inferno and become such a part of it that you can no longer see it. The second is risky and demands constant vigilance and apprehension: seek and learn to recognize who and what, in the midst of the inferno, are not inferno, then make them endure, give them space.’
About Loghain and Grey Wardens: there is no need for the Archdemon to show up, as long as the darkspawn were already raiding Ferelden. Maybe the Wardens aren't trusted yet, but they are known as the best fighters against darkspawn.
The Orlesian emperor and his cronies were a much better killing machine than any demon during the Ferelden occupation. You don't need to be a demon or abomination to became a monster. The memory of orlesian devastation was still fresh in Ferelden and that explain Loghain actions or the general distrust of Orlesians.
Unlike a demon the Orlesians had a reason to do what they did*they wanted more land and probably thought they were bringing civilty to uncultured barbarians* politics and war are never black and white a demon/abomination has no other motive then to cause destruction.
