166 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow Fox]

Adrian68b wrote...

"Which makes it even stupider two people can't fight a war no but a HN or Eamon does*Alistair unhardened is little more than a puppet king/figurehead it's Eamon,The Warden or Anora who does the work/pulls the strings*the reason the Wardens don't openly fight Loghain is because it would leave them too thin to fight the Blight and Orlais would've got involed which would have led to open war they don't want to fight two wars at once*ferelden and the Blight* that and the last time Wardens got involed in politics*Sophia Dryden* it ended badly."

It is stupid only if it fails. Thinking pragmatically, the alternative would have been the loss of the entire Ferelden population AND land (corrupted) AND more importantly, ORZAMAR. I think Orzamar closeness was also an important reason for targetting Ferelden by the archdemon (according to legends, very intelligent beings). You can imagine the consequence of losing Orzamar to the darkspawn (making the dwarven election war the stupidest possible - this is why i choose Bhelen, by the way).
Having nothing else to lose (except their lives) and a lot to gain, the PC's decision to fight the Blight with Ferelden resources is highly justified.

And it's only dumb luck that it succeds which is what makes it  a stupid plan.
It would been seen as a necessary loss by the Wardens who have Orlais to back them up.
The Wardens don't really seem to care about Orzamar considering they only seem to go there to seek aid or for their calling.

See Orzamar in my opinion was one of the only true gray decisions in Origins*which is probably why I love it* do you support honorable yet tradisionalis/isolanist Harrowmont or the ruthless yet pragmatic Bhelen?

Yet the Warden wasn't sure Eamon would aid them and all Ferelden was against the Wardens until lategame.

[Adrian68b]

"See I agree the "magic is sinful" thing is stupid since Andraste herself was a mage but not all Templars see magic as evil Greagioer even calls it a gift but also a curse because it's dangerous in the Magi Origin that's the view all the Chantry should have."

Exactly. But it is not. The Chantry is a reaction to the terror of the Tevinter Empire and the magisters. Such as, the sin of magic is the core part of Chantry's dogma. And circle mages are indoctrinated every day (remember the circle mages in DAO, Anders...) to hate themselves. The hatred and distrust against magic is essential for the Chantry. It IS their weapon. That's why they don't want a real alternative for the rite of tranquility, or any research about darkspawn origin. Making the magisters (mages) responsible for the creation of the darkspawn has the perfect contagion effect (any mage could be responsible for something similar).
It is very likely that darkspawn are a result of some experiment made by the magisters. But that is not an excuse for refusing to study such a big threat (darkspawn and their periodical Blights).

[Fast Jimmy]

How can one not be for the freedom and equality of a group of individuals? How can one stand by at the sight of injustice and tyranny? Do we not see the plight of those in chains and not have a stirring within our souls to stand against the brutality of our fellow man? Is that not our one inalien right, nay DUTY as beings of feeling and reason?

I'm for the elves in DA3. What? Who did you think I was talking about?

[Adrian68b]

In my first play I supported Harrowmont (being a dwarven noble) but after that I always chose Bhelen, even if I played his betrayed brother. and YES, it was my favorite part also.How great would have been DA2 if instead of Kirkwall, Bioware would have chosen Orzamar. Think about a war with Kal Sharok, some other surviving remote thaigs... Even the primeval thaig would have been a major factor, not just a minor plot with inseen consequences!

About the main plot in DAO. It seemed quite stupid for me also, but for other reasons. For instance, during the main part of raising the army, the darkspawn are completely ignored. No reconnaisance, no intelligence gathering, no fighting for resources, nothing. It is like they are dissapearing underground and emerging only at the "right" moment (exacly when the army is ready). Stupid!

Come to think about the warden's campaign. A perfect example of a crazed impossible but successful campaign is the conquest of Mexico by Cortes. Quite similar (betrayal, gaining allies, final fight).

Modifié par Adrian68b, 17 septembre 2012 - 10:20 .

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering Hawke kills templars in Act II without getting caught, I don't agree. Hawke can kill two templars, then leave Kirkwall with Bethany.

Even if we assume Hawke can kill Cullen and his templars*I refuse to believe he would go to that house without any backup* on thier own*which I doubt try fighting a boss on your own without help and tell me how that works out for you*

You're welcome to fan fic the idea that there are more than two templars, but all we see is one single templar in Cullen's company. The fact that Hawke does absolutely nothing while Bethany is taken to a Circle Tower where Hawke knows Circle mages are being made tranquil illegally is what bothers me; he doesn't even try to rescue his sister. He basically mimicked furniture while Cullen and the single templar accompanying him took her away to the Gallows.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

what makes you think Meredith would let that go who would be stupid enough to take them out of the city with a pissed off Knight  Commander after their heads?And then that's not even accounting for the fact that that your unarmed mother and uncle are in the house would you risk their safety by going against your sister's wishes?

Hawke and Bethany could leave, immediately. There's no reason for Hawke to sit idly by and do nothing if he can try to do something to save his sister from a place where she can end up tranquil.

This is the game where enemies pop up out of nowhere in waves so just because they only showed one Templar with Cullen doesn't  mean that's all he brought with him pick the Agressive option Cullen warns Hawke against trying something since by law the entire family could  be arrested and he and your sister's cooperation are  the only things keeping that from happening and Bethany tells you to back off.

And leave thir mother and uncle to the mercies of a pissed off Meredith? Yeah I bet Bethany would really apreciate that...and they would need someone to get them out unless you suggest they try swimming?And Meredith would have instigated a manhunt for them and people KNOW what they look like so it would have  been ****** easy to find them before they could even step on a boat or jump in the water. And what's to stop Bethany from just turning herself into the Templars if you do make it out of the house? If Hawke really wanted to protect Bethany from the Templars they would have taken her with them into the Deep Roads.

[cindercatz]

The Blight is active throughout Origins, though. It's just that we don't see it on camera. We do hear of various cities being overrun and we do come across minor skirmishes multiple times if we travel enough.

The wardens' first priority is building support against the arch-demon, and the civil war is merely a hindrance to that, as is the dispute in Orzammar, and the werewolf dilemma, and the mage crisis. They could abandon Ferelden, but Alistair is Fereldan and not about to do that, and Morrigan is only interested in the other issues at play. Leli's not about to abandon Ferelden, and Sten is there entirely to defeat the blight (or to answer whether it exists to begin with). Oghren has nowhere else better to be and the Blight presents a way to live up to his lost honor. Zevran finds a means of doing something useful and attaining his own freedom. Shale has nothing better to do at first, then has motivation if she survives. Wynne's not abandoning everyone she cares for.

It might not be the tactically smartest choice to defend Ferelden in DA:O, but the characters all have reasons beyond that to make their stand there regardless, so they do. And the warden and Alistair are only important in the scenario because they make their stand at Ferelden, where there is no consensus and no otherwise unifying force able and motivated to face and kill the Arch-demon. The story makes perfect sense from their perspective.

Modifié par cindercatz, 17 septembre 2012 - 10:36 .

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

This is the game where enemies pop up out of nowhere in waves

We're addressing a cutscene, not a combat scene.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

so just because they only showed one Templar with Cullen doesn't  mean that's all he brought with him pick the Agressive option Cullen warns Hawke against trying something since by law the entire family could  be arrested and he and your sister's cooperation are  the only things keeping that from happening and Bethany tells you to back off.

I made that choice, and a verbal request from Bethany shouldn't have stopped Hawke from trying to protect his sister from a Circle of Magi where mages are being made tranquil illegally by corrupt templars.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And leave thir mother and uncle to the mercies of a pissed off Meredith?

You're proposing leaving Bethany to the mercy of the templars. I'm not certain how happy Gamlen or Leandra would be if Bethany ended up being made tranquil, had Alrik gotten to her (like he did with Karl and the others).

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Yeah I bet Bethany would really apreciate that...and they would need someone to get them out unless you suggest they try swimming?

I'm sure (smuggler) Hawke knows ways to export his sister (and himself) out of Kirkwall. I think there are ways besides doing absolutely nothing that would have been beneficial, if Hawke cared about Bethany.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And Meredith would have instigated a manhunt for them and people KNOW what they look like so it would have  been ****** easy to find them before they could even step on a boat or jump in the water. And what's to stop Bethany from just turning herself into the Templars if you do make it out of the house? If Hawke really wanted to protect Bethany from the Templars they would have taken her with them into the Deep Roads.

A manhunt for two people who can leave to a pro-mage kingdom right across the Waking Sea, possibly one with a mage (and national hero) serving as the Arl of Amaranthine and Warden-Commander.

[Adrian68b]

"And leave thir mother and uncle to the mercies of a pissed off Meredith? Yeah I bet Bethany would really apreciate that...and they would need someone to get them out unless you suggest they try swimming?And Meredith would have instigated a manhunt for them and people KNOW what they look like so it would have been ****** easy to find them before they could even step on a boat or jump in the water. And what's to stop Bethany from just turning herself into the Templars if you do make it out of the house? If Hawke really wanted to protect Bethany from the Templars they would have taken her with them into the Deep Roads."

Fair point. Hawke could do nothing at that point. But his behavior afterwards is way to passive. It's like sitting and waiting for something bad to happen. I could understand his decision to stay in Kirkwall in order to protect his family in Act1, but after Bethany is taken to the Circle...
His buddy Anders is a perfect mage smuggler and still no offer from him about smuggling out Bethany, or a plan from Hawke.
The content smirk of Hawke when he changes to finery for the first time in Act2 is just obscene for me every time I played Act2.
The same in Act 3. The threat against circle mages increases. Hawke's concern about Bethany and her safety? NOTHING.No plan, not even an attempt. AND how many times does Hawke visit his sister in 6 years? ZERO times. How many times does he mention Bethany to anyone in act 2 and 3 ? ZERO. Not even with his mother.

[Shadow Fox]

cindercatz wrote...

The Blight is active throughout Origins, though. It's just that we don't see it on camera. We do hear of various cities being overrun and we do come across minor skirmishes multiple times if we travel enough.

The wardens' first priority is building support against the arch-demon, and the civil war is merely a hindrance to that, as is the dispute in Orzammar, and the werewolf dilemma, and the mage crisis. They could abandon Ferelden, but Alistair is Fereldan and not about to do that, and Morrigan is only interested in the other issues at play. Leli's not about to abandon Ferelden, and Sten is there entirely to defeat the blight (or to answer whether it exists to begin with). Oghren has nowhere else better to be and the Blight presents a way to live up to his lost honor. Zevran finds a means of doing something useful and attaining his own freedom. Shale has nothing better to do at first, then has motivation if she survives. Wynne's not abandoning everyone she cares for.

It might not be the tactically smartest choice to defend Ferelden in DA:O, but the characters all have reasons beyond that to make their stand there regardless, so they do. And the warden and Alistair are only important in the scenario because they make their stand at Ferelden, where there is no consensus and no otherwise unifying force able and motivated to face and kill the Arch-demon. The story makes perfect sense from their perspective.

Ofcourse it does I wasn't arguing that the characters or even the Warden depeding on how you play them didn't have reasons to not want it razed to the ground  it's just not a good plan to defeat the Blight from a purely pramatic/tactical standpoint because it depends on a lot of luck to succed.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

This is the game where enemies pop up out of nowhere in waves

We're addressing a cutscene, not a combat scene.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

so just because they only showed one Templar with Cullen doesn't  mean that's all he brought with him pick the Agressive option Cullen warns Hawke against trying something since by law the entire family could  be arrested and he and your sister's cooperation are  the only things keeping that from happening and Bethany tells you to back off.

I made that choice, and a verbal request from Bethany shouldn't have stopped Hawke from trying to protect his sister from a Circle of Magi where mages are being made tranquil illegally by corrupt templars.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And leave thir mother and uncle to the mercies of a pissed off Meredith?

You're proposing leaving Bethany to the mercy of the templars. I'm not certain how happy Gamlen or Leandra would be if Bethany ended up being made tranquil, had Alrik gotten to her (like he did with Karl and the others).

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Yeah I bet Bethany would really apreciate that...and they would need someone to get them out unless you suggest they try swimming?

I'm sure (smuggler) Hawke knows ways to export his sister (and himself) out of Kirkwall. I think there are ways besides doing absolutely nothing that would have been beneficial, if Hawke cared about Bethany.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

And Meredith would have instigated a manhunt for them and people KNOW what they look like so it would have  been ****** easy to find them before they could even step on a boat or jump in the water. And what's to stop Bethany from just turning herself into the Templars if you do make it out of the house? If Hawke really wanted to protect Bethany from the Templars they would have taken her with them into the Deep Roads.

A manhunt for two people who can leave to a pro-mage kingdom right across the Waking Sea, possibly one with a mage (and national hero) serving as the Arl of Amaranthine and Warden-Commander.

That would have triggered combat

It should have unless your Hawke has a death wish or is just really stupid and selfish.

Karl was made Tranquil because he was found to be conspiring with Anders and what we've seen in game mages that keep their heads down and didn't give an oppurtunity for him to do it without anyone seeing tended to be fine  and well you'd  have your sister hate you forever because you're a paranoid selfish fool that coldly left your family to die but you seem like you'd be okay with that.

Except Hawke burned that bridge pre act one and also Athenril only protected them when Bethany wasn't a known apostate that had the Templars chasing her.

Right like I said they'd be found before they reached the boat then she'd be lucky if she was made tranquil.

[cindercatz]

One of DA2's worst flaws was a general lack of choice/consequence, and a repeated enforcement of the powerlessness of Hawke to change much of anything. The Bethany situation is a perfect illustration of that. They should have at least expanded on the story and had Hawke participate in an ongoing relationship with his/her sibling, rather than only a potential dlc outing (and potentially two incidental meetings) and a few letters for years on end.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Ofcourse it does I wasn't arguing that the characters or even the Warden depeding on how you play them didn't have reasons to not want it razed to the ground  it's just not a good plan to defeat the Blight from a purely pramatic/tactical standpoint because it depends on a lot of luck to succed.

It does true, but what purpose does going to Orlais serve? Orlais will know of the blight in time regardless. The surrounding nations will all know, and those beyond them, from the oncoming refugees if nothing else. The wardens leaving Ferelden doesn't accomplish anything but potentially saving their own lives and perhaps providing intelligence about the internal political strife in Ferelden. The wardens elsewhere and their nations will be just as prepared to fight the Blight with or without Alistair and our wardens. So really, the only positive impact our wardens can have is if they stay and fight, attempt to save Ferelden. Even if they fail, at least they tried, and the other nations chances against the Blight will not have dimenished.

Modifié par cindercatz, 17 septembre 2012 - 11:24 .

[Adrian68b]

It is also about risk assessment.
1. Orlais is not interested in saving Ferelden After Cailan death, Celine stopped her army, waiting for new developments. Orlais is quite safe because an attack from Ferelden is only possible through the Frostback Pass (easy to defend). So an orlesian aid is unlikely. Initially Celene agreed for an aid because it was beneficial not to fight a Blight in Orlais (zero darkspawn corruption of land).
2. Every PC has something vital to lose to the Blight. Maybe except the Dalish, because the elves are landless. But even the Dalish is at least honour bound to help the remaining elves from Ferelden.
My first attempt (dwarf noble) was lucky, because it makes me understand the importance of Orzamar. Orzamar is defenseless against a simultaneous attack from underground and the surface. And it is vital for lyrium and runes. So my PC was really interested in ending the Blight. The same is true for human, mage and elven origin. Leaving Ferelden is a death sentence for every remaining relative.
3. Regardless of PC origin, the price of losing is extremely high, and the chance of alternative solution is close to zero (maybe in the case of Orzamar, Orlais would risk an aid; othervise no). The chance of success in the case of fighting the blight in Ferelden is quite low, but the decision is acceptable because of the potential extremely high loss otherwise.

[dragonflight288]

@ Adrian,

I disagree with #2. I love the dwarven noble origin, but to the dwarves, a blight is the best time in the world. The surface's blight is Orzammar's every day. This is the first time in 400 years that the darkspawn weren't at the gate of Orzammar.

[Adrian68b]

Well, not this time. The Blight it's just to close to Orzamar. A Blight anywhere else could be a blessing for the dwarfs, but Orzamar is under Ferelden and I suspect also the few remaining thaigs (remember the first two DA novels). My point is that, after the conquest of Ferelden, the Archdemon's intention is to eliminate Orzamar once and for all. The gain is huge for the darkspawn: no underground threat from dwarfs and a perfect link between the underground bases and an occupied surface country with several exit points. Just perfect for future campaigns!

Modifié par Adrian68b, 18 septembre 2012 - 01:09 .

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

That would have triggered combat

In other words, it was a cutscene, and was supposed to address the actual situation.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

It should have unless your Hawke has a death wish or is just really stupid and selfish.

It's stupid to let Bethany be taken to a Circle Tower where she could end up like Karl.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Karl was made Tranquil because he was found to be conspiring with Anders and what we've seen in game mages that keep their heads down and didn't give an oppurtunity for him to do it without anyone seeing tended to be fine  and well you'd  have your sister hate you forever because you're a paranoid selfish fool that coldly left your family to die but you seem like you'd be okay with that.

Karl was made tranquil on Alrik's order because he wrote letters to Anders. He is a morally bankrupt rapist who is making mages tranquil illegally and using tranquil women for sex, and his own subordinate suspects Alrik is crossing the line about Karl.

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Except Hawke burned that bridge pre act one and also Athenril only protected them when Bethany wasn't a known apostate that had the Templars chasing her.

Considering Athenril helps Hawke out and turns to him for help, WTF are you talking about?

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Right like I said they'd be found before they reached the boat then she'd be lucky if she was made tranquil.

Is Cullen's corpse going to warn Meredith that he was killed?

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
so just because they only showed one Templar with Cullen doesn't  mean that's all he brought with him pick the Agressive option Cullen warns Hawke against trying something since by law the entire family could  be arrested and he and your sister's cooperation are  the only things keeping that from happening and Bethany tells you to back off.

I made that choice, and a verbal request from Bethany shouldn't have stopped Hawke from trying to protect his sister from a Circle of Magi where mages are being made tranquil illegally by corrupt templars.

Yes it should have.  Whether you like it or not, whether you want to acknowledge it or not Bethany is an adult.  This is her choice to make not yours.  Bethany is just as aware of what's going on in the Circle as Hawke is and she's telling you to back down.

Adrian68b wrote...

"And leave thir mother and uncle to the mercies of a pissed off Meredith? Yeah I bet Bethany would really apreciate that...and they would need someone to get them out unless you suggest they try swimming?And Meredith would have instigated a manhunt for them and people KNOW what they look like so it would have been ****** easy to find them before they could even step on a boat or jump in the water. And what's to stop Bethany from just turning herself into the Templars if you do make it out of the house? If Hawke really wanted to protect Bethany from the Templars they would have taken her with them into the Deep Roads."

Fair point. Hawke could do nothing at that point. But his behavior afterwards is way to passive. It's like sitting and waiting for something bad to happen. I could understand his decision to stay in Kirkwall in order to protect his family in Act1, but after Bethany is taken to the Circle...
His buddy Anders is a perfect mage smuggler and still no offer from him about smuggling out Bethany, or a plan from Hawke.

I think people forget Bethany's own attitudes towards her magic. She's not happy with it, she's convinced she's a burden on her family. Has anyone considered that Bethany, who's an adult I'll remind you, turned herself in because she didn't want to be anymore? Didn't want to force her mother and brother/sister to constantly look over their shoulders because of her? Or maybe that she's tired of constantly looking over her own shoulder?

Given her attitudes towards her magic, given that she asks you not to intervene in her being taken to the Circle, given that she writes letters expressing she's happy there is it not possible that such plans were put in motion and she refused?

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Karlone123 wrote...

I'm usually torn between each side. If I were a mage I would want freedom to not live under Templar vigilance and to not be be executed whenever the right of annulment is called, and to freely explore the edges of magic.

If I were a Templar, I would have been raised to think Magic is a curse, and think we are protecting Mages from the public and themselves, to be always vigilante against rogue Mages and abominations. To stand as a protector of faith and serve the Chantry against the most dangerous forms of magic and those who wield it.

How about you?

That's really the thing, isn't it?  The moderates on both sides have a point, and the extremists on both ends are equal parts ridiculous and monsterous.  If ever a conflict called for an option C, this is it.  Lucky for Thedas, several important people, including no less than the Divine of the Chantry herself, seem to be dedicated to finding that option C.

**** the Divine. Also, there is no option C. Something that Anders saw better than many others.

Yes it should have.  Whether you like it or not, whether you want to acknowledge it or not Bethany is an adult.  This is her choice to make not yours.  Bethany is just as aware of what's going on in the Circle as Hawke is and she's telling you to back down.

One nice thing about my playing as a mage is that I get to avoid this situation. However... to my regret, my preference for everything making sense internally leads me to agree with you, with conditions: I would happily kill Cullen and the others if I assumed that Bethany could actually be made safer by this, but if the rest of the Order came after us, the risks would be too high.

I think people forget Bethany's own attitudes towards her magic. She's not happy with it, she's convinced she's a burden on her family. Has anyone considered that Bethany, who's an adult I'll remind you, turned herself in because she didn't want to be anymore? Didn't want to force her mother and brother/sister to constantly look over their shoulders because of her? Or maybe that she's tired of constantly looking over her own shoulder?

If she did, I admit it was irritatingly selfish. I would happily trade a lifetime of looking over my shoulder for an unspecified period of time trying to look into a prison; I certainly won't be any more relaxed, and I hope that Leandra wouldn't be either.

[dragonflight288]

Adrian68b wrote...

Well, not this time. The Blight it's just to close to Orzamar. A Blight anywhere else could be a blessing for the dwarfs, but Orzamar is under Ferelden and I suspect also the few remaining thaigs (remember the first two DA novels). My point is that, after the conquest of Ferelden, the Archdemon's intention is to eliminate Orzamar once and for all. The gain is huge for the darkspawn: no underground threat from dwarfs and a perfect link between the underground bases and an occupied surface country with several exit points. Just perfect for future campaigns!

Not completely accurate, but your point still stands.

Orzammar is most certainly beneath the Frostback mountains and its entrance is right on the Ferelden border, but it's also on the Orlesian border as well.  For all we know, Orzammar might be closer to Orlais than Ferelden. The Chantry controls the lyrium trade with Orzammar, and t seat of the Chantry is in Orlais.

The Deep Roads cover all of Thedas, so I don't know if we are closer to the Orlesian side or not. Also the guards at the gates of Orzammar leading into the Deep Roads specifically discuss how there are fewer darkspawn around the city.

But I still see your point. Of course, the Dwarven nobles in the Assembly don't care. All they care about is...

Gorim: The usual, this lord had my cousin killed, this lord seduced my wife, this lord did the exact same thing I planned to do to him but he did it first.

[Adrian68b]

"Of course, the Dwarven nobles in the Assembly don't care. All they care about is..."

True, and very human-like. The dwarven nobles don't care about anything but their political game. Not even about their survival. I made my reasoning based on the position of ingame darkspawn raids. Several darkspawn encounters were already close to Orzamar. Also, Orzamar's main entrance is in Ferelden, based on Fereldan map and the first two DA books. Yes, the entrance is located close to the Orlesian border, and that's why I considered a possible Orlesian aid for Orzamar. But also the orlesian nobles are very much alike the dwarves ones. Not caring about anything but their internal political games. A truly intelligent Archdemon would be very careful about not moving against Orlais until both Ferelden and Orzamar are finished.
Of course the deep roads are underground all Thedas, but those close to Orzamar, and still in dwarven hands or disputed by the dwarves of Orzamar (Ortan thaig, the Death Threnches...) seemed to be under Ferelden - by DAO and DA books lore. It is just my supposition, of course.

[ImperatorMortis]

Mages because they're powerful, awesome, and the most fun to play, and roleplay as.

I wish in DA3 I have more oportunities to say I'm a mage. I love seeing their reactions. 

I think all the mages should forget these stupid normal/weak people, and make their own country. Or just move to Tevinter. Or the normal people just need to relax a bit. 

Mages are better than them, get over it. 

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 18 septembre 2012 - 06:44 .

[Adrian68b]

"Mages are better than them, get over it."

It's not that simple. Tevinter society was and still is a very sick one. In Tevinter everything is just the reverse: status, wealth, living is judged based on ones magical abilities. But magic is random; mages cannot control their genes. So a non-magical child in a mage family is also a disgrace. And to be born a non-mage in Tevinter leaves options only to servitude and slavery. Or maybe one could became a slaver or a soldier. And just remember the magister's "business practices": the note at the exit of the Bone Pit in DA2 is a perfect example. The magisters could have foreseen a reaction like Andraste and the Chantry coming. Usually, any opression, especially a crazed one finally ends in bloodbath.

About Bethany and her possible "involvement" in her capture by the templars: she is a very decent girl, and she deeply cares about her family. It is not likely that she just gave herself up without anouncing her intention to her family; besides, she could not know about the templars merciful approach. Usually, in such a case the family is arrested and possibly executed. In the case of Hawke family, execution is very likely because of the notoriety of Malcolm Hawke in Kirkwall. Bethany could not have risked the end of her family just because being "tired of hiding".
I always assumed that an enemy of Hawke's (the magistrate is a very likely one in my case - I always killed his son) or an informer did it. And the merciful attitude of the templars is based on the Viscount's express demand (the information it's in the cut-scene).

The entire affair about Bethany's capture is in my opinion one of the game's weak points. Bioware designed DA2 with a specific outcome in mind: the final confrontation between templars and mages. Everything else is secondary. That was a MAJOR mistake. THE WORST MISTAKE of DA2. Hawke have to stay in Kirkwall despite the end of Blight, despite the templar's terror, despite the qunari threat. Just because in the end he has some role in the final battle. Just consider the end of Act1: Hawke became wealthy, Bethany is captured, Anders could help Bethany escape (he helped dozens of mages), the Blight is over, the qunari problem became violent. So, in the long run, what better decision could Hawke make but escaping with his family back to Ferelden. Not to mention the increasing anti-Fereldan attitude in Kirkwall. At the beginning of Act1 I could accept the fact that Hawke is not wealthy enough to go back to Ferelden, but after de Deep Roads expedition...
In DAO the outcome was also fixed, but it was plausible. There's a Blight. Of course the only good outcome is defeating the archdemon. Even so, Bioware offered several tweaks (self-sacrifice, Morrigan's offer, sacrificing Loghain). But any other ending is just ridiculous. I don't think anyone contemplated seriously an alliance between the Wardens and the archdemon. Awakening, the Architect and his proposal is different. But I don't think many players were intrested in the destruction of the entire civilized world for the sake of the darkspawn (and a very likely  enslavery by the Architect).
In DA2 it just not worked. Here we have a combined religious and political struggle, with many plausible outcomes. Bioware made just ONE choice possible, denying any real involvement. DA2 is an amazingly non-Bioware game. The only real involvement in DA2 is at Diablo level: the way we choose to kill the next bastard.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 18 septembre 2012 - 08:40 .

[ImperatorMortis]

Adrian68b wrote...

"Mages are better than them, get over it."

It's not that simple. Tevinter society was and still is a very sick one. In Tevinter everything is just the reverse: status, wealth, living is judged based on ones magical abilities. But magic is random; mages cannot control their genes. So a non-magical child in a mage family is also a disgrace. And to be born a non-mage in Tevinter leaves options only to servitude and slavery. Or maybe one could became a slaver or a soldier. And just remember the magister's "business practices": the note at the exit of the Bone Pit in DA2 is a perfect example. The magisters could have foreseen a reaction like Andraste and the Chantry coming. Usually, any opression, especially a crazed one finally ends in bloodbath.

About Bethany and her possible "involvement" in her capture by the templars: she is a very decent girl, and she deeply cares about her family. It is not likely that she just gave herself up without anouncing her intention to her family; besides, she could not know about the templars merciful approach. Usually, in such a case the family is arrested and possibly executed. In the case of Hawke family, execution is very likely because of the notoriety of Malcolm Hawke in Kirkwall. Bethany could not have risked the end of her family just because being "tired of hiding".
I always assumed that an enemy of Hawke's (the magistrate is a very likely one in my case - I always killed his son) or an informer did it. And the merciful attitude of the templars is based on the Viscount's express demand (the information it's in the cut-scene).

I didn't mean to insinuate that I want another Tevinter. I don't. 

I want another Mage kingdom/nation/empire, but without the slavery, and the blood magic. Or better yet, just try, and change Tevinter. If Tevinter didn't induldge in those things I imagine it would have been a pretty awesome place to live. 

New magics being discovered to make lives easier, there is just so much potential there. 

As for the non mage childs in the family. Isn't magic genetic? It seems to be the dominant gene from what i've gathered. Sure things might suck for the non mage child, but eventually if mages more often than not, having children with other mages.

That wouldn't be an issue eventually. Aside from the occasional/rare "mutation". I think this is going to happen where all humans will become mages. Kind of like in Warhammer 40k. 

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I made that choice, and a verbal request from Bethany shouldn't have stopped Hawke from trying to protect his sister from a Circle of Magi where mages are being made tranquil illegally by corrupt templars.

Yes it should have.  Whether you like it or not, whether you want to acknowledge it or not Bethany is an adult.  This is her choice to make not yours.  Bethany is just as aware of what's going on in the Circle as Hawke is and she's telling you to back down.

Whether Bethany liked it or not, a competent Hawke should have tried to save her from a situation where she could end up like Karl. Hawke's inaction could have lead to Bethany getting raped like Alain, made tranquil like Alrik's tranquil harem, or killed when they immediately put her to the Harrowing. Mimicking furniture and doing nothing isn't what a good brother or sister would do in that situation.

[Adrian68b]

"New magics being discovered to make lives easier, there is just so much potential there."

That is exactly my opinion, also. Sadly, a world based on enlightened leadership is just utopic. There is no way for an established aristocracy to give up it's power and wealth in order to improve the life of others. There is no chance for a religious order to give up it's influence and prestige in order to make the world a better place. It usually takes a lot of effort and suffering to make these changes. As a rule, an increased wealth is linked with low empathy and caring. The rule is statistic, of course. There are always exceptions.
The amazingly good part of every Bioware game is the careful world development; societies and religions are always plausible. In my opinion, Bioware made a mistake forcing the outcome of DA2. But DA2 is still a very good game placed in a realistic world.