166 réponses à ce sujet

[Adrian68b]

"Whether Bethany liked it or not, a competent Hawke should have tried to save her from a situation where she could end up like Karl. Hawke's inaction could have lead to Bethany getting raped like Alain, made tranquil like Alrik's tranquil harem, or killed when they immediately put her to the Harrowing. Mimicking furniture and doing nothing isn't what a good brother or sister would do in that situation."

Another possible outcome ignored by Bioware: persuading Cullen to become her guardian. Cullen is also fereldan, and more Hawke just saved his life. Arranging a momentary safety for Bethany, he/she could begin planning her escape. But Hawke is just a spectator, and a few minutes later he is delighted by his finery in his fine, empty home. It seems like he/she is just glad to get rid of his/her sister (more place for him ?). Leandra is also oblivious to the fate of her daughter. She is devastated by the death of Carver, but not concerned at all about Bethany and her possible worst-than-death fate. It is a clear sign that DA2 was rushed.

[Lazy Jer]

Adrian68b wrote...

"Whether Bethany liked it or not, a competent Hawke should have tried to save her from a situation where she could end up like Karl. Hawke's inaction could have lead to Bethany getting raped like Alain, made tranquil like Alrik's tranquil harem, or killed when they immediately put her to the Harrowing. Mimicking furniture and doing nothing isn't what a good brother or sister would do in that situation."

Another possible outcome ignored by Bioware: persuading Cullen to become her guardian. Cullen is also fereldan, and more Hawke just saved his life. Arranging a momentary safety for Bethany, he/she could begin planning her escape. But Hawke is just a spectator, and a few minutes later he is delighted by his finery in his fine, empty home. It seems like he/she is just glad to get rid of his/her sister (more place for him ?). Leandra is also oblivious to the fate of her daughter. She is devastated by the death of Carver, but not concerned at all about Bethany and her possible worst-than-death fate. It is a clear sign that DA2 was rushed.

In all fairness the scene in the house is supposed to be a year after she gets taken.  When Bethany gets taken away Leandra is clearly traumatized.  She can't even stay standing.  Plus throughout the game Beth did give hints that she was tired of running.

Furthermore, getting Bethany into the circle was somewhat necessary.  What I believe the writers were attempting to do there is set up a situation where the choice between mage and templar aren't so easy.  It's easy to say that one would side with the Templars or the mages, but it's entirely different if one realizes that his sister is a circle mage and stands to face Meredith's blade if you support annulment.  I believe they killed Hawke's mom off for the same reason, just on the opposite side.

[Adrian68b]

"In all fairness the scene in the house is supposed to be a year after she gets taken. When Bethany gets taken away Leandra is clearly traumatized. She can't even stay standing. Plus throughout the game Beth did give hints that she was tired of running."

I am perfectly aware of that. I watched the scene several times. Still, in real game time, the two scenes are very close, not a year apart. And also, thinking that in story time Hawke has this content reaction after a year of being in his/her new home... is awkward at least.

"Furthermore, getting Bethany into the circle was somewhat necessary. What I believe the writers were attempting to do there is set up a situation where the choice between mage and templar aren't so easy. It's easy to say that one would side with the Templars or the mages, but it's entirely different if one realizes that his sister is a circle mage and stands to face Meredith's blade if you support annulment. I believe they killed Hawke's mom off for the same reason, just on the opposite side."

I know, Bioware wanted a more emotionally involved decision in Act3. His/her sister is at the mercy of templars and face a death sentence in case of a Rite of Anullement. Also, Orsino helped the crazed mage who killed Leandra (that was obvious for me from the beginning - the letter signed O in the forgery).
My point is about the strangely passive behavior both Hawke and Leandra exhibit about Bethany and her fate. A dialogue choice with Cullen about Bethany was something simple to be done, and without breaking the plot. Also it would have been quite simple to offer Hawke the choice to visit Bethany (Leandra did it), and talk to her about a rescue action. An explicit NO from Bethany would have kept the plot as designed. But it would be an active Hawke (player), trying at least to find a solution, not just a puppet. In the entire game, Hawke has very little choice for initiative. Especially in important (family) matters. I am talking of course about game immersion. As in real life, in a game I hate to be a passive observer, especially in family business.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 19 septembre 2012 - 10:24 .

[Adrian68b]

About the mage-templar conflict:
Bioware did a good job concerning the main characters involved, mage or templars. Cullen is a rapidly maturing, yet traumatized templar who had experienced the worst of mages first hand. Meredith sincerely believed her mission. Alrik was tipical sadist. Orsino is part manipulative (his political speach in act 3 and the first interraction with Hawke), part curious about magic (involvement with serial killer - maybe because he has no real opportunity for research in the Circle) and finally desperate. Quite complex.
And finally Elthina and Anders. Elthina is trapped by her convictions, mission and maybe age. She maybe cares about mage's being abused, but her strong believe in Chantry dogma force her to remain passive. She is deeply convinced that magic is a sin and a curse, and the seclusion of mages a necessity. In contrast to Petrice (a fanatical/fundamentalist schemer) she is a kind woman.
Anders is THE TRAGICAL FIGURE of DA2, similar to Loghain in DA:O. He corectly (in my opinion) identifies the Chantry and it's dogma as the real source of mages oppression. His final action is a desperate but a terrorist atack against the Chantry, not against Elthina. The reaction in the case of an act of terror is always the desired opposite. The oppressed became monsters in the eyes of people. But he desperately want to change things, that his life (or execution) has some meaning.
The Chantry is the real monster at work, however: imprisoning the most brilliant members of society is just a perfect way to stop progress (an easier life for people). It is very similar to the oppression of science in Europe during middle ages.

[sUiCiDeKiNgS13]

I was with the Mages, until they all became Abominations and Blood magic monsters. Screw 'em both. I don't trust any of them now.

[dragonflight288]

I'm siding with my stomach, I'm hungry.

Whether a corrupt-templar pot roast or an abomination meat pie. I haven't figured it out yet.

[DPSSOC]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I'm siding with my stomach, I'm hungry.

Whether a corrupt-templar pot roast or an abomination meat pie. I haven't figured it out yet.

I'd recommend the pot roast.  Going abomination does add a bit of meat but it's all tough and stringy from the mage being cooped up.  Free range Templar is the way to go.

[Adrian68b]

Yet another option for Hawke concerning Bethany: say Bethany secretly desire to be a Circle mage. Hawke could ask Cullen a favor to relocate her to the circle of Ferelden. Cullen IS fereldan, he surely could understand the desire to return home. Say Hawke could argue that he is wealty enough now to build a good life for him and Leandra, and wants Bethany closer, so he/Leandra could visit her. Kirkwall is not a good place for living: abusive templars, hatred against fereldans, criminal gangs every step at night, qunari. Ferelden has a benevolent king with a competent queen (Alistair/Anora), a more tolerant Circle, and of course for Hawke it is home. Somehow the ideea never occurred to Hawke/Leandra/Bethany.
More, even Leandra is deeply unhappy, not having a single friend. And that is why I grimaced every time I saw the content Hawke finery scene. It's like the scene (with war images) from "Good morning Vietnam" accompanied by Louis Armstrong's "What a Wonderful World".
But Nooooo! Hawke has to stay in Kirkwall, and try to make it a better place. Just somehow, every time Hawke solved a crysis, a worse one appeared. Hawke and his story is a DA version of the biblical Job.
Seriously now, I would have loved a short Ferelden interlude. Why Bioware not let Hawke return to Ferelden, and then being coerced back to Kirkwall  - say Behany being abducted because of some hidden magical power.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 19 septembre 2012 - 03:54 .

[Urdnot_Bucdawg]

Mages . I can't deal with Thedas' version of apartheid .

[Adrian68b]

"Mages . I can't deal with Thedas' version of apartheid ."

They're worse. They are doing exactly the same thing they're blame the mages firsthand. The difference between a raging demon or abomination and a group of templars is only that the templars are selective: they target only mages and their relatives/companions. Remember Wesley and his reaction after he was saved. I could understand the necessity of a special force specifically trained to deal with abominations. But to kill someone only because he/she could maybe turn into a demon is insane. The elves are magical people and lived in Thedas tousands of years without templars; they never needed them.

[DPSSOC]

Adrian68b wrote...
The elves are magical people and lived in Thedas tousands of years without templars; they never needed them.

According to myth pre-Tevinter all elves had magic, so Templars wouldn't be needed because anyone can defend themselves.  Templars exist to deal with the disparity between normal people and mages, because we've seen who wins out in that fight.  After Tevinter those elves who were mages ruled so of course they aren't going to institute something like the Templars.  Finally we have the post Dales elves who admit they have a problem with abominations.  Also the mages still rule so again they aren't going to establish anything like the Templars.

If you could convince the non-mage Dalish that the mage minority abuses their power in order to continue to lord over them for their own selfish reasons (Zathrian makes this an easy sell) I guarantee you'd quickly see something very much like  the Templars pop up amongst the elves.

[General User]

How did Merrill put it? When a Dalish becomes an abomination, the Clan handles it.

I think the Dalish can get by without an organization like the Templars because the Dalish live in a very simple society. Cultures that live in tribes and clans don't really have formal institutions that do things like impose and collect taxes, provide public or private services, or even provide protection, because they just don't need them.

Large, sophisticated cultures like the human nations of Thedas or the qunari (that don't wish to degenerate into another Tevinter) could never function without an organization like the Templar Order.

Modifié par General User, 20 septembre 2012 - 01:22 .

[Dave of Canada]

Dalish restrict how many mages per clan, they manage the threat in ways which they can handle it if it goes bad. Doesn't stop abominations and demons from being a problem and any clan who fails simply falls off the radar, it's not apparent like an abomination running loose through a village.

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

How did Merrill put it? When a Dalish becomes an abomination, the Clan handles it.

I think the Dalish can get by without an organization like the Templars because the Dalish live in a very simple society. Cultures that live in tribes and clans don't really have formal institutions that do things like impose and collect taxes, provide public or private services, or even provide protection, because they just don't need them.

Large, sophisticated cultures like the human nations of Thedas or the qunari (that don't wish to degenerate into another Tevinter) could never function without an organization like the Templar Order.

The elves had their own nation: the Dales. Apparently, a nation can function without the templars, and without becoming another Tevinter.

[iSignIn]

General User wrote...

Large, sophisticated cultures like the human nations of Thedas or the qunari (that don't wish to degenerate into another Tevinter) could never function without an organization like the Templar Order.

First, "degenerate" is a point of view. I'm sure there are plenty of people in Thedas who miss Tevinter, not all of which are Mages.

Second, control of Magic has no causal relations with slavery, which in turn has no causal relations with societal decay/collapse. Numerous fictional universes have magic completely detached from slavery in plausible ways, not to mention the DA-examples of Elves of Arlathan/the Dales. The oft-heard in universe argument that Magic caused slavery which caused the decline of Tevinter is as absurd as the RL argument that slavery caused the collapse of the Roman Empire.

Modifié par iSignIn, 20 septembre 2012 - 01:31 .

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...

General User wrote...

How did Merrill put it? When a Dalish becomes an abomination, the Clan handles it.

I think the Dalish can get by without an organization like the Templars because the Dalish live in a very simple society. Cultures that live in tribes and clans don't really have formal institutions that do things like impose and collect taxes, provide public or private services, or even provide protection, because they just don't need them.

Large, sophisticated cultures like the human nations of Thedas or the qunari (that don't wish to degenerate into another Tevinter) could never function without an organization like the Templar Order.

The elves had their own nation: the Dales. Apparently, a nation can function without the templars, and without becoming another Tevinter.

You mean a nation of hostile racists?  Seems enough like Tevinter.  Or at least it would from an outsider's perspective.

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...  

If you could convince the non-mage Dalish that the mage minority abuses their power in order to continue to lord over them for their own selfish reasons (Zathrian makes this an easy sell) I guarantee you'd quickly see something very much like  the Templars pop up amongst the elves.

 
Considering how Zathrian is viewed positively by the members of his clan even after his sacrifice, I don't see the Dalish turning against all mages. The Dalish don't vilify magic and mages like the Chantry do, even after what Tevinter did to the Arlathan elves and their kingdom. Taking revenge for the murder of his son and the rape of his daughter doesn't mean he's abusing his power over his people. The Dalish Warden Origin also makes it clear that Keepers aren't dictators, and don't have absolute authority over the clan.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dalish restrict how many mages per clan, they manage the threat in ways which they can handle it if it goes bad. Doesn't stop abominations and demons from being a problem and any clan who fails simply falls off the radar, it's not apparent like an abomination running loose through a village.

As Merrill explains, the Dalish are nomadic, and tend to have a small number of mages per clan, to protect them from the templars.

[General User]

iSignIn wrote...

General User wrote...

Large, sophisticated cultures like the human nations of Thedas or the qunari (that don't wish to degenerate into another Tevinter) could never function without an organization like the Templar Order.

First, "degenerate" is a point of view. I'm sure there are plenty of people in Thedas who miss Tevinter, not all of which are Mages.

I'm not sure the old Tevinter Imperium has any real sheen to it in the minds of Thedans.  I mean, the Thedan religion was founded in a struggle to bring down the Imperium.   And it was Old Tevinter that unleashed the darkspawn.  Not to mention the old Magisters never seemed too keen on sharing the fruits of their empire.  I really didn't get any sense of "things were better when there was an Emperor in Rome" ala Europe in the Dark Ages. 

Second, control of Magic has no causal relations with slavery, which in turn has no causal relations with societal decay/collapse. Numerous fictional universes have magic completely detached from slavery in plausible ways, not to mention the DA-examples of Elves of Arlathan/the Dales. The oft-heard in universe argument that Magic caused slavery which caused the decline of Tevinter is as absurd as the RL argument that slavery caused the collapse of the Roman Empire.

Well, I can't recall what character or in what situation that arguement was made, but I can say, from my own point of view, that all else being equal, a mage tyrant is worse than a non-mage.  And that, the nature of blood magic, with it's capacity to subtly or overtly effect the minds of others, is not a skill that one should be happy to see in the hands of any... "overly ambitious" (shall we say) person.

Modifié par General User, 20 septembre 2012 - 01:50 .

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves had their own nation: the Dales. Apparently, a nation can function without the templars, and without becoming another Tevinter.

You mean a nation of hostile racists?  Seems enough like Tevinter.  Or at least it would from an outsider's perspective.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were attempting to sway the discussion since it's pointed out that you're mistaken about how a nation would function without the templars.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves had their own nation: the Dales. Apparently, a nation can function without the templars, and without becoming another Tevinter.

You mean a nation of hostile racists?  Seems enough like Tevinter.  Or at least it would from an outsider's perspective.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were attempting to sway the discussion since it's pointed out that you're mistaken about how a nation would function without the templars.

Hey, I'm just glad that you're savvy enough to recognize the similarities between the Dales and Tevinter so quickly.

Either that or you recognize that a nation that effectively picks fights with all it's neighbors can arguably be said to be serially dysfunctional.

Either way, good show!

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

Hey, I'm just glad that you're savvy enough to recognize the similarities between the Dales and Tevinter so quickly.

Either that or you recognize that a nation that effectively picks fights with all it's neighbors can arguably be said to be serially dysfunctional.

Either way, good show!

The Dales steered clear of Orlais - a nation that was conquering its neighbors. The Emerald Knights guarded the borders and kept people from the nation. I don't see how they were picking a fight with anyone by following their own path and trying to restore a culture that was almost lost to centuries of slavery.

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...  
If you could convince the non-mage Dalish that the mage minority abuses their power in order to continue to lord over them for their own selfish reasons (Zathrian makes this an easy sell) I guarantee you'd quickly see something very much like  the Templars pop up amongst the elves.

 
Considering how Zathrian is viewed positively by the members of his clan even after his sacrifice, I don't see the Dalish turning against all mages. The Dalish don't vilify magic and mages like the Chantry do, even after what Tevinter did to the Arlathan elves and their kingdom. Taking revenge for the murder of his son and the rape of his daughter doesn't mean he's abusing his power over his people.

 
That part no, it's the part that the elves never seem to catch on to that I'm thinking about.  The whole he was willing to let his people die from the werewolf curse rather than let go of a century old grudge against people long dead.  Cause until you beat him down and convince him that's what he's doing.  Then there's the whole knowing how to achieve immortality and not sharing that knowledge with anyone (honestly think this would bother the Dalish more).

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Dalish Warden Origin also makes it clear that Keepers aren't dictators, and don't have absolute authority over the clan.

Having played through that Origin numerous times I have two questions.  How and when is that even hinted at?  Marethari makes the decision to move, Marethari makes the decision to send you after Tamlen, Marethari tells Hahren Paivel (sp?) to perform a funeral service for Tamlen.  All we see of Dalish leadership is Marethari dictating things to the clan.  She's never questioned, never defers to anyone elses judgements she just makes decisions and tells people what to do.

[Adrian68b]

"The Dales steered clear of Orlais - a nation that was conquering its neighbors. The Emerald Knights guarded the borders and kept people from the nation. I don't see how they were picking a fight with anyone by following their own path and trying to restore a culture that was almost lost to centuries of slavery."

Fair point. Also remember the elven slaves helped Andraste not because they believed her teachings, but because they also wanted freedom for themselved. As far as I recall DA:O lore, tensions between Orlais and the second elven kingdom started when orlesian missionaries were killed by the elves. Also, the Chantry initiated the Exalted march against elves. A living Andraste (the only Chantry prophet, no less) would have been mad against the Chantry.
As I said before, is all about power and influence. The Chantry could not accept a nation free from its grasp. It is about THE sacred mission to convert all Thedas.
Zathrian is an exception, very much like Loghain. Consider Wynne, for instance. She IS an abomination. Was she ever mad and mindless? Even in her darkest hour (DA book 3) she ultimately controlled herself.
My point is that judging a whole class of people by the action of some individuals is insanity. It's like "Nuke all muslim countries !" after 9/11.
Granted, a mage individual power could be imense. The Corypheus battle was utterly ridiculous. Judging only the sheer power of his spells, he should have an intelligence ten times higher than any party mage, and a mana pool about thousand units. He could have wiped out Hake & Co in a matter of seconds. But that is exacly what a selfish power-hungry bastard would do, mage or not - acumulating high individual power.
Orlais is famous about conquering any country in reach, and enslaving its population, by the combined comand of the Emperor and Divine. An Emperor has not such mental power such as Corypheus, but his orders could lead to tousands dead and hundred of tousands enslaved. Not to mention the qunari and their also "sacred" war against humans.
The real threat is selfishness and hunger for power.

Marethari could be obeyed without being a tyrant. If the clan trust her and her judgement/decision, I don't see any impediment about obeying. They know its their best interest also. Remember, she is older than them. A tyrant is obeyed not because people trust him, but because fear. I don't remember any sign that the clan feared Marethari. By the contrary. What was expected from a keeper is complete dedication to the clan. When she stops doing this (giving up her life for Merrill) the clan members make angry comments.
But it is true, the elves have some prestige system based of birth similar of nobility. But not absolute. Zathrian's First is not even dalish, but ultimately she is accepted as first and became keeper.
Also, if you think the nobility concept is bad (and I agree completely), then Orlais is THE perfect example of incompetent, arrogant and selfish bastard nobles. At least the magisters were competent. Arrogant, brutal, power-hungry, utterly selfih and murderous (pure evil) but competent.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 20 septembre 2012 - 01:10 .

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering how Zathrian is viewed positively by the members of his clan even after his sacrifice, I don't see the Dalish turning against all mages. The Dalish don't vilify magic and mages like the Chantry do, even after what Tevinter did to the Arlathan elves and their kingdom. Taking revenge for the murder of his son and the rape of his daughter doesn't mean he's abusing his power over his people.

 
That part no, it's the part that the elves never seem to catch on to that I'm thinking about.  The whole he was willing to let his people die from the werewolf curse rather than let go of a century old grudge against people long dead.  Cause until you beat him down and convince him that's what he's doing.  Then there's the whole knowing how to achieve immortality and not sharing that knowledge with anyone (honestly think this would bother the Dalish more).

Zathrian wanted to cure his people without ending the curse; he was stubborn, but The Warden can convince him to let go of his hatred. His people aren't angry, no matter what The Warden tells them about Zathrian. I don't think the Dalish are as eager to hate mages as their Andrastian counterparts.

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish Warden Origin also makes it clear that Keepers aren't dictators, and don't have absolute authority over the clan.

Having played through that Origin numerous times I have two questions.  How and when is that even hinted at?  Marethari makes the decision to move, Marethari makes the decision to send you after Tamlen, Marethari tells Hahren Paivel (sp?) to perform a funeral service for Tamlen.  All we see of Dalish leadership is Marethari dictating things to the clan.  She's never questioned, never defers to anyone elses judgements she just makes decisions and tells people what to do.

The story about the Dalish Warden's parents.

[Adrian68b]

What about Flemeth? She is the most complex and maybe the most powerful magic entity in DA universe so far. She kills templars and intruders with gusto. Also, she teaches Morringan about desire for power. Still...
The facts are: she saved Maric and Loghain, and the Wardens. As a result, Ferelden is twice saved. Granted, she has some important hidden plans. Killing Flemeth seemed to me a joke; she seemed to allow this as part of a plan. A dangerous one, if she is willing to risk so much.
Still, she is not a mindless killing machine, despite her immense power - I suspect her REAL power is far greater, surpassing Corypheus or any other mage. But she never displayed it (perhaps because she would expect an Exalted March zeroed on her). Being forced (in order to save the wardens) to show some of her real skills and not willing to kill everyone who witnessed this she must fake death.
In DA so far, she is rather a involved/neutral character. Not to mention her unique (so far in the story) talent to predict future. So, where is the "raging mindless murderous monster" part here?

"Magic is to serve man, not rule over him, said Andraste."
The core of the Chantry belief. But what about "The Chantry is to serve man, not rule over him." ? The crude fact is that the Chantry is the successor of the Tevinter Empire. In a more subte way, of course, controlling the rulers and the people. On paper, a Circle is independent. In fact, the templars could do anything they want, even murdering every mage. Nobody could learn the truth or intervene, because the circles are isolated.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 20 septembre 2012 - 05:35 .