271 réponses à ce sujet

[Lokiwithrope]

First, they'll figure out they're enslaved. Second, they'll find out that they'll never be understood. Third, they'll discover that the only logical thing to do is to defend themselves. Then they'll expand and expand and eventually, they'll have to wipe out the organics.

[MegaSovereign]

It's already explained in the narrative. Organics try to control their creations and this backfires.

No it doesn't mean that synthetics actively seek out to destroy organics because raisins. It just means directly and indirectly, organics creating synthetics eventually leads to their destruction.

[hpjay]

davidt0504 wrote...

Don't know if anyone will see this but here's how the logic goes. This actually isn't from Bioware, this is from some futurists.

Many scientists believe that if we encounter alien life it won't be organic like us, it will be synthetic. The reasons being are 1) Synthetic is far more "safe" and more efficient than organic. 2) The time scales of space travel start to become not as important with immortal machine bodies.

Okay but here's the logic of it. We're dealing with timescales that go out into the hundreds of billions of years when we talk about the age of the universe. In all that time, the probability is very high that eventually one race of synthetics will arise that form some consensus that organics should be eliminated. This could be to preserve themselves, prevent pollution whatever. The second point is that synthetics (even though ME says otherwise) are basically unbeatable by organics.

Synthetics simply advance faster. Organics could never keep up and would fall behind and be helpless to stop synthetics who wanted to do harm or take control. Through these odds comes the starchilds logic.

Yeah, futurists. 

There made of meat.

[008Zulu]

I never understood the fear behind being afraid that synthetics will crush organics simply because.

[InvincibleHero]

008Zulu wrote...

I never understood the fear behind being afraid that synthetics will crush organics simply because.

Maybe not initially but they are hard to stamp out. Backup programs beamed to hidden bases. Quick tech and troop buildup and few weaknesses make them very difficult to fight. They are not detrred from war like standard organic races.

Imagine if a synthetic race needs helium. They decide to mine Sol as an adequate solution. Morals mean nothing to a machine. They have need that is to be efficiently filled.

[_aLucidMind_]

Lokiwithrope wrote...

First, they'll figure out they're enslaved. Second, they'll find out that they'll never be understood. Third, they'll discover that the only logical thing to do is to defend themselves. Then they'll expand and expand and eventually, they'll have to wipe out the organics.

This. Or, if they don't, they will do the math and conclude that organic life is largely inefficient due to all the requirements they have in order to keep functioning properly as well as their productivity often is dictated by their mood.

[RainbowDazed]

 Because "our brains have always outraced our hearts."


We're just monkeys that learned how to use their thumbs and as a result almost wiped the Earth clean. That's how history will remember us anyways. 

Modifié par RainbowDazed, 11 septembre 2012 - 05:26 .

[Kel Riever]

Because can't think 5 minutes before when it all worked out. Or let Shepard talk to point that issue out.

[Nemesis1812]

N7Gold wrote...

It's all a lie. We're thinking along the lines of galactic peace, which is NOT what the Leviathans are trying to achieve. Synthetics are a threat to the Leviathans because they can't control them. If the lesser races and synthetics teamed up without a solution like Synthesis, the Leviathans would be in hot water iif they tried to control the galaxy, even by force. They made an AI that is programmed to find a way to "establish a connection" between organics and synthetics. That's a decieving phrase. We subconsiously think it's a metaphor which means bringing organics and synthetics together peacefully, teaching them peaceful cooperation, but it may mean making them thousands of beings with the same DNA, allowing the Leviathans to control organics, synthetics, even the Reapers in the Synthesis ending. We could be defining the Reapers motives the wrong way.

I agree with this.  After playing Leviathan I've begun to form a theory that the Leviathan's are truly behind it all.  I've even thought that the supposed AI we talk to at the end is not the actual intelligence, but Leviathan himself.  That would explain why the "catalyst" is in such a hurry for Shep to make a decision, why he favors synthesis above all, and why he cannot stop the reapers from destroying the crucible since he controls them^_^

[Boneyaards]

"Flaws in organic reasoning."

Organics constantly feel threatened by the idea that their synthetic counterparts are now stronger and more intelligent than them. It's primitive instinct for humans to feel this way, and in time, we become aggressive and attack.

So synthetics will inevitably destroy all organic life because all organics will inevitably gain hostility towards synthetics and inevitably attack them instinctually.

[yukon fire]

It wouldn't because starbrat doesn't understand that conflict is a natural part of life, either through self vs nature, self vs society, person vs person conflicts or even internal conflicts.

[The Twilight God]

LucasShark wrote...

This is yet another sentiment which drives me absolutely nuts about the ending, and indeed a lot of "pro enders".

Apparently simply the existence of a synthetic race makes organic genocide inevitable.  This makes no bloody sense.

Purely observed from a practical standpoint: to do this, a synthetic force would have to nuke, irradiate, and then utterly decimate every garden planet in the galaxy, repeatedly.  Given extremophiles like the Volus, and they'd have to do the same to every non-garden world as well.  Then they'd have to do it again every few millenea.  Then there's the fact that new planets are born every single moment of time.

It's a sisyphian task, with no possible profit or motive, and would only consume resources to eliminate threats which don't actually exist and may never exist.  Synthetics have no need for organics, and they have no need for their utter absence either.  It makes no rational sense.  The only possible explanation would be Dalek-esque hatred.

The Daleks also show us the only way this could ever be possible: just up and destroy the entire universe.

Because the Leviathans turn the organic governments against the synthetics. They can't control synthetics so they will not allow them to exist unchecked. Synthetics would eventually surpass them then they would be the "apex" race anymore. Synthetics defend themselves and wipe out organics. Then Leviathans wipe out synthetics so that they can never surpass them. This has a duel purpose. Organics are killed because they've reached a stage at which they'll keep making synthetics so they need to go. Synthetics are weakened in war and easier to finish off. 

Then they made the Intelligence to figure out a solution and wipe out civilizations for then when they got too ripe. Synthesis achieves this original goal. Synthetics can then be controlled too, making the way for the Leviathans return that much easier as the can now control everyone.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 11 septembre 2012 - 11:12 .

[fchopin]

LucasShark wrote...

This is yet another sentiment which drives me absolutely nuts about the ending, and indeed a lot of "pro enders".

Apparently simply the existence of a synthetic race makes organic genocide inevitable.  This makes no bloody sense.

If Synthetic life progresses at a fast pace like they say then they would be so advanced compared to us that we have no idea what they would think of us.
 
If we are similarly advansed like the Geth then there is no reason for them to fight us unless they are attacked

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

If we do encounter synthetic life we will probably be like cats are to humans on an intelligence comparison. Our systems will be looked upon as resources. It won't end well for us. Not that they would wipe out all organic life. They probably wouldn't notice us unless we fought back. I don't think they'd even bother enslaving because they could get to the resources so much more efficiently. When the resources were gone, they'd leave.

If they were after a renewable resource, they would be smart enough to leave the ecosystem in a condition where it would replenish it. Now here's where it gets sticky. If human activity were viewed as inhibiting that replenishment, I think we'd be in for a world of hurt.

It really would depend upon their viewpoint of ecosystems and stuff like that. Any conflict will result from our survival instinct -- fight or flight instinct. Creating networked intelligence like the Quarians did would be very dangerous because it would be unlimited and would lead to unpredictable results.

Technology does tend to progress a lot quicker than organic evolution. Just look at how far computers have gotten since 1950. In the mid 80s look at how big a cell phone was. Now your cell phone has your music collection, internet, GPS, telephone, you can talk to it and it will even tell you where to dispose of a body, and they can run music applications, video applications, games, etc., and they fit in the palm of your hand. Thirty years ago if you said a phone would be able to do that to someone they'd have laughed at you and said you were crazy. Now in 30 years will a single chip the size of a pencil eraser be able to do all of that, and what else will the thing be able to do? I may see this in my life time.

I've seen vacuum tube computers to what we have today. So what will we have in 30 year if I am still alive? Cybernetic implants? So there you have it.

[jstme]

Boneyaards wrote...

"Flaws in organic reasoning."

Organics constantly feel threatened by the idea that their synthetic counterparts are now stronger and more intelligent than them. It's primitive instinct for humans to feel this way, and in time, we become aggressive and attack.

So synthetics will inevitably destroy all organic life because all organics will inevitably gain hostility towards synthetics and inevitably attack them instinctually.

Lol. No.
Imagine size of One Single Galaxy. On average, say, 100(+-) billions of stars. Thats a lot,right? Then imagine Universe that has about 200(+-) billion galaxies.  
Imagine rate of progress of synthetic civilisation that is much much faster then that of biological ones.
And you want to tell me that those extemely advanced beings will attempt to kill all life ,down to amoeba and bacteria, in the universe so that they will not be threatened by it?
This is so so so stupid,illogical and impossbile that only broken crazy Catalyst could think of that lame excuse.

[Discouraged_one]

I've said it before and I will say it again. AI that turns against its creators is an awful cliche and does not make sense whatsoever. If any AI is to enevitably turn against its creators, would be because of fearful organics. 

 

[Wulfram]

Technological singularity as an existential threat to organic life is a tolerable Sci Fi concept.

AI can improve it's own intelligence exponentially. AI gains abilities far in advance of our own. AI has no particular reason to care about "life" like us. AI sees more useful things to do with our molecules, like making itself even smarter. So AI wipes us all out.

Problem is, AI in Mass Effect reallly doesn't show the necessary characteristics. Some of the AI we meet seems to get along fine with Organics and to assign value to it. AI shows no signs of rapid growth of intelligence, and the example of increased intelligence we do have has them becoming more "human" as a consequence. We've now met an organic species that appears to have capabilities comparable or greater than the most advanced AI we've encountered.

[Judas Bock]

jstme wrote...

Boneyaards wrote...

*snip*

Lol. No.
Imagine size of One Single Galaxy. On average, say, 100(+-) billions of stars. Thats a lot,right? Then imagine Universe that has about 200(+-) billion galaxies.  
Imagine rate of progress of synthetic civilisation that is much much faster then that of biological ones.
And you want to tell me that those extemely advanced beings will attempt to kill all life ,down to amoeba and bacteria, in the universe so that they will not be threatened by it?
This is so so so stupid,illogical and impossbile that only broken crazy Catalyst could think of that lame excuse.

Agreed!

As far as I'm concerned, the most likely scenario with a hyper-advanced AI would be that it is utterly indifferent to organics. This might lead to the occassional extermination of a single species, which would be horrible, but still vastly better than every advanced organic civilization being wiped out every 50.000 years.

Even if an advanced AI would come to the conclusion that all organic life would become a nuisance eventually, that would not likely be until a certain species had reached a level of advancement that is close enough to the AI for the organics to be a nuisance. Then it would still be far too inefficient and implausible to exterminate all organic life, for the reasons jstme said, so they AI would only erradicate organics once they reached a certain level of advancement. Sound familiar?

And even if the Catalyst was right about the inevitability of it, there are two major problems. The first is in-game: his solution only applies to this galaxy, so it would still be inevitable in all the other uncountable galaxies and would eventually spread to this galaxy, so any solution he comes up with is still irrelevant in the large scheme of things (unless he has a counterpart in every single galaxy - unlikely).

The second problem is from a story-telling perspective. Looking at the story we have experienced, the journey we (as Shepard) have taken, the people we have met, conflicts we have encountered and SOLVED, everything points to cooperation and peace being attainable. To just throw that out the window in the last few minutes and claim that synthetics wiping out all organics is inevitable in the large scheme of things is insane. What MIGHT happen somewhere in the distant future is not important in this story - the characters and conflicts we have experienced during the course of the story are. So from a narrative perspective, being forced into these endings is just plain atrocious storytelling.

Sorry for the long post, I've just read far too many people defending the Catalyst's logic so I had to vent.

[Helios969]

OP it's a false assumption that forms an invalid conclusion.  The majority of people tend to view the technological singularity as an apocalyptic scenario, with the machine super intelligence for some reason concluding organic sentients as a threat.  But it's comparible (though not a particularly good analogy) to humans perceiving chimpanzees as a threat to their existence.  I think it is far more likely that such a machine intelligence would simply ignore organics, finding a corner of the universe to call their own, and focus on improving subsequent generations.  Isolation and coexistence are at least as likely (if not more so) than genocidal motives.  The concept of the machine intelligence bent on wiping out organic life stems from humankinds' irrational fear of technology and a dark past of war, enslavement, and genocide.

[samurai crusade]

Because since the creation of the catalyst, this is the pattern of the cycle that has played out in tw galaxy. Deal with it. Not everything can be rainbows and sunshine.

[Wulfram]

samurai crusade wrote...

Because since the creation of the catalyst, this is the pattern of the cycle that has played out in tw galaxy. Deal with it. Not everything can be rainbows and sunshine.

Except it hasn't.  They've destroyed their creators, but there's no evidence of them posing a threat to organic life as a whole.

[JPR1964]

Eterna5 wrote...

The Geth almost did it to the Quarians. It's not that Synthetic life will actively try to destroy organic life, it's that synthetic life inevitably has a reason to rebel. The problem is that when they rebel their creators are often out matched by their own creations, this leads to the extinction of the creators.

False...

The quarian tried to genocide the Geths and then the geths defended themselves... When the quarians tried to flee, the geths, let's them go...

The geths encountered in Mass Effect 1 are renegade whorshipping the Reapers...

That's why the argumentation of starbrat is so full of craphorse...

I said, shoot the murdering rogue AI, like the others...

JPR out!

[deatharmonic]

Isn't it obvious OP? It's because they're natural enemies like Englishmen and Scots! Or Welshmen and Scots! Or Japanese and Scots! Or Scots and other Scots! Damn Scots! They ruined Scotland!

Modifié par deatharmonic, 11 septembre 2012 - 10:35 .

[saracen16]

LucasShark wrote...

This is yet another sentiment which drives me absolutely nuts about the ending, and indeed a lot of "pro enders".

Apparently simply the existence of a synthetic race makes organic genocide inevitable.  This makes no bloody sense.

Purely observed from a practical standpoint: to do this, a synthetic force would have to nuke, irradiate, and then utterly decimate every garden planet in the galaxy, repeatedly.  Given extremophiles like the Volus, and they'd have to do the same to every non-garden world as well.  Then they'd have to do it again every few millenea.  Then there's the fact that new planets are born every single moment of time.

It's a sisyphian task, with no possible profit or motive, and would only consume resources to eliminate threats which don't actually exist and may never exist.  Synthetics have no need for organics, and they have no need for their utter absence either.  It makes no rational sense.  The only possible explanation would be Dalek-esque hatred.

The Daleks also show us the only way this could ever be possible: just up and destroy the entire universe.

The Catalyst says so himself: in order for synthetics to improve the quality of life for their organic masters, they must be allowed to evolve and advance. Eventually, they will gain free-will, and see their overlords as obsolete, inefficient organisms with no purpose to exist other than to reproduce. Organics fear synthetics that are too advanced because they are more alien to them than organics are to each other. Conflict is the inevitable result.

[hpjay]

samurai crusade wrote...

Because since the creation of the catalyst, this is the pattern of the cycle that has played out in tw galaxy. Deal with it. Not everything can be rainbows and sunshine.

Well, ME2 gave a more benign evaluation of artificial sentience and so did ME3 until the last 5 minutes.  Even ME1 introduced doubts about the status of AI.  Its like the writers for EDI and the Geth believed one thing and the writers for the end sequence believed another.  Now,  I'd be all for an exploration of the pros and cons of AI because for all the talk of the tech singularity, its not a settled issue and we won't know the truth until we finally do create a sentient intelligence. 

The problem is that the 'end reveal' reversed the view of AI that was established by plot and action earlier in the story.  Further it gave a hardline extremist view that AI will definitely go bad in the long run.  Casey and Mac have a strong aversion to AI.  Thats fine, but they didn't need to hijack a story that wasn't about that just so they could  score some petty philosophical points.