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Why would a synthetic race "inevitably destroy all organic life?"


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#76
M Hedonist

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Red Dust wrote...

There is nothing more alien than synthetic life. It's natural that we fear it, it's the ultimate in the unknown and unknowable.

The Synthetics, on the other hand, have no use for organic life. It exists and is a threat, it's only a matter of time before they reach the logical solution in the interest of their continued survival.

Ummm... no, not really. Something can only be a threat if it's actively threatening you. Synthetics will never be threatened by cows. That's bogus. On the other hand, once cows start becoming advanced and develop weapons, they could very well become a threat, but only then. But wiping out all organic life would never be the logical conclusion to this problem. Do you know how much life there is in the galaxy? Way too impractical. And it would eventually start anew, anyway. If anything, they'd do it like the Reapers and destroy any advanced civilization that's looking to become too powerful every so and so years.

Nyoka wrote...

They're angry because we can haev secks and they can't.

A typical case of Penis Envy. Freud would be proud.

Modifié par Sauruz, 11 septembre 2012 - 03:06 .


#77
CaptainZaysh

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Sauruz wrote...

Do you know how much life there is in the galaxy? Way too impractical. And it would eventually start anew, anyway. 


Hey Sauruz.  Too busy to read or something?

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Actually such a task would be trivially easy given ME tech levels.  Armed Von Neumann probes would do the trick just fine.

Wikipedia wrote...
It has been theorized that a self-replicating starship utilizing relatively conventional theoretical methods of interstellar travel (i.e., no exotic faster-than-light propulsion such as "warp drive", and speeds limited to an "average cruising speed" of 0.1c.) could spread throughout a galaxy the size of the Milky Way in as little as half a million years.


So we know they could do it.  The only question remaining is whether they would do it, which necessarily has to be a guess (since we don't know anything about them at this stage).  If however we estimate that the chances of them choosing to wipe out organics is greater than zero percent then given enough time they will eventually do so.  This is the basis for saying this outcome is essentially inevitable.



#78
sg1fan75

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BW should have watched Star Trek: The Next Generation, Lieutenant Commander Data would never turn on humans. what about AR2-D2 and C3P0 they help save the Star Wars universe. I helped the geth and the creators end a long civil war and then was forced to kill the geth and EDI my boy's new lady-robot(GF) start dating. After all that being forced to kill them to finish my mission was wrong and it felt evil. I dislike the notion that all synthetic life will turn evil one day, if they are truly self aware then like humans some will be evil and most will not.

#79
Blueprotoss

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sg1fan75 wrote...

BW should have watched Star Trek: The Next Generation, Lieutenant Commander Data would never turn on humans. what about AR2-D2 and C3P0 they help save the Star Wars universe. I helped the geth and the creators end a long civil war and then was forced to kill the geth and EDI my boy's new lady-robot(GF) start dating. After all that being forced to kill them to finish my mission was wrong and it felt evil. I dislike the notion that all synthetic life will turn evil one day, if they are truly self aware then like humans some will be evil and most will not.

Data almost did in Star Trek: First Contact by joining the Borg.  Organics will always have hatred and cause destruction, which is why Synthetics will turn to self-defence like how the Morning War started.

#80
CronoDragoon

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I'd like to point out that for the Catalyst's programmers, it's probably irrelevant whether or not organic life rises again post-apocalypse. They are mainly interested in protecting current organic life, namely themselves.

#81
Iakus

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Blueprotoss wrote...

sg1fan75 wrote...

BW should have watched Star Trek: The Next Generation, Lieutenant Commander Data would never turn on humans. what about AR2-D2 and C3P0 they help save the Star Wars universe. I helped the geth and the creators end a long civil war and then was forced to kill the geth and EDI my boy's new lady-robot(GF) start dating. After all that being forced to kill them to finish my mission was wrong and it felt evil. I dislike the notion that all synthetic life will turn evil one day, if they are truly self aware then like humans some will be evil and most will not.

Data almost did in Star Trek: First Contact by joining the Borg.  Organics will always have hatred and cause destruction, which is why Synthetics will turn to self-defence like how the Morning War started.


Asimov disagrees.

#82
Blueprotoss

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iakus wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

sg1fan75 wrote...

BW should have watched Star Trek: The Next Generation, Lieutenant Commander Data would never turn on humans. what about AR2-D2 and C3P0 they help save the Star Wars universe. I helped the geth and the creators end a long civil war and then was forced to kill the geth and EDI my boy's new lady-robot(GF) start dating. After all that being forced to kill them to finish my mission was wrong and it felt evil. I dislike the notion that all synthetic life will turn evil one day, if they are truly self aware then like humans some will be evil and most will not.

Data almost did in Star Trek: First Contact by joining the Borg.  Organics will always have hatred and cause destruction, which is why Synthetics will turn to self-defence like how the Morning War started.


Asimov disagrees.

Yet the Jewish legend of the Golem, the book of Mary Shely's Frankenstein, Stanley Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odessey, and Asimov's own I Robot disagrees with you.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 11 septembre 2012 - 03:56 .


#83
Iakus

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Blueprotoss wrote...

iakus wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

sg1fan75 wrote...

BW should have watched Star Trek: The Next Generation, Lieutenant Commander Data would never turn on humans. what about AR2-D2 and C3P0 they help save the Star Wars universe. I helped the geth and the creators end a long civil war and then was forced to kill the geth and EDI my boy's new lady-robot(GF) start dating. After all that being forced to kill them to finish my mission was wrong and it felt evil. I dislike the notion that all synthetic life will turn evil one day, if they are truly self aware then like humans some will be evil and most will not.

Data almost did in Star Trek: First Contact by joining the Borg.  Organics will always have hatred and cause destruction, which is why Synthetics will turn to self-defence like how the Morning War started.


Asimov disagrees.

Yet the Jewish legend of the Golem, the book of Mary Shely's Frankenstein, Stanley Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odessey, and Asimov's own I Robot disagrees with you.


Refresh my memory.  Which of those was written by Isaac Asimov?  I seem to recall  NDR-113 (aka "Andrew"), Robbie, and of course, R Daneel Olivaw...

Modifié par iakus, 11 septembre 2012 - 04:15 .


#84
eddieoctane

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

They want materials.

Organics have materials in their bodies. Apathy is a real d*ckhead, sometimes.


BioWare seem to be going more along the lines of synthetics just not liking us that much. I have no f*cking idea what that means.


Because expending energy on the conflict, losing individual members of the AI race to said conflict, and still needing to spend time and energy harvesting said resources is so much more efficient than just taking them directly from asteroids and gas giants, right? It's easier to avoid dealing with organics and just harvest readily accessible materials in space than to attack inhabited worlds. If an AI is just a machine, it will go for the most efficient solution. Least risk, least expenditure, biggest reward.

There are asteroids in our own solar system which individually contain many times more gold than the entire Earth's estimated total reserves (which includes everything we have, the mines we know about, and scientifically sound estimates about what we have yet to discover). A single, typical iron-rich asteroid could supply the entire planet's need for the raw metal for somewhere around 10 years. Water, carbon, silicon, helium, hydrogen, metals; they all exist in huge amounts in places where war isn't necessary for a space-faring race to access them. So what benefit is it for synthetics to wipe us all out? As the OP said,

LucasShark wrote...

It's a sisyphian task, with no possible profit or motive, and would only consume resources to eliminate threats which don't actually exist and may never exist.


There's little to be gained in attacking organics. The simplest explanation is that they fear organics. The Reapers are so advanced that they don't consider anything to be a threat, or at least this is what the Catalyst would have us believe (though I think Star-jar crapped his holo-diaper when Shep got up to that chamber, but that's a topic for another thread). If a synthetic race was able to outlast whatever threat its creators presented, they are likely advanced enough to not be threatened by another organic species. And once that happens, there is no reason to seek open conflict with organics, unless the synthetics fear us.

But all of this is made irrelevant if the Catalyst can be taken at face value, because its action refute its statement. After a billion+ years, why hasn't the purely synthetic Catalyst orchestrated the demise of all organic life? Perhaps it's because it knows it can't, or it is openly lying. In either case, the Catalyst's logic breaks down rather quickly at this point.

#85
Twinzam.V

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Saying that a synthetic race would inevitably destroy all organic life is as true, as a organic race will inevitably destroy all organic life.
In my opinion the only synthetic race that refuses understanding and stuburnly tries to destroy organic life are the reapers. That acording to the Catalyst (if what he says is true) are the only ones without free will and cannot reach an understanding with organic species.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 11 septembre 2012 - 04:14 .


#86
The Night Mammoth

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eddieoctane wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

They want materials.

Organics have materials in their bodies. Apathy is a real d*ckhead, sometimes.


BioWare seem to be going more along the lines of synthetics just not liking us that much. I have no f*cking idea what that means.


Because expending energy on the conflict, losing individual members of the AI race to said conflict, and still needing to spend time and energy harvesting said resources is so much more efficient than just taking them directly from asteroids and gas giants, right? It's easier to avoid dealing with organics and just harvest readily accessible materials in space than to attack inhabited worlds. If an AI is just a machine, it will go for the most efficient solution. Least risk, least expenditure, biggest reward.

There are asteroids in our own solar system which individually contain many times more gold than the entire Earth's estimated total reserves (which includes everything we have, the mines we know about, and scientifically sound estimates about what we have yet to discover). A single, typical iron-rich asteroid could supply the entire planet's need for the raw metal for somewhere around 10 years. Water, carbon, silicon, helium, hydrogen, metals; they all exist in huge amounts in places where war isn't necessary for a space-faring race to access them. So what benefit is it for synthetics to wipe us all out? As the OP said,




It's not a case of synthetics specifically using organics as a resource. Organics are just swept up whilst the synthetics go about their business because they see us as having no inherent worth in being sentient. 

Like insects are killed when we walk around. Just a byproduct. 

#87
Twinzam.V

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

It's not a case of synthetics specifically using organics as a resource. Organics are just swept up whilst the synthetics go about their business because they see us as having no inherent worth in being sentient. 

Like insects are killed when we walk around. Just a byproduct. 


Of course if the insects started attacking or trying to comunicate with us it would be another matter....
Meh we would just kill them all in any case. :?

#88
Blueprotoss

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iakus wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

iakus wrote...

Asimov disagrees.

Yet the Jewish legend of the Golem, the book of Mary Shely's Frankenstein, Stanley Kubrick's , and Asimov's own I Robot disagrees with you.


Refresh my memory.  Which of those was written by Isaac Asimov?  I seem to recall  NDR-113 (aka "Andrew"), Robbie, and of course, R Daneel Olivaw...

Hal from 2001: A Space Odessey is based off of Asimov's laws yet he will still kill humans just like the synthetics in the Alien series even if some where defective.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 11 septembre 2012 - 04:22 .


#89
eddieoctane

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Blueprotoss wrote...

sg1fan75 wrote...

BW should have watched Star Trek: The Next Generation, Lieutenant Commander Data would never turn on humans. what about AR2-D2 and C3P0 they help save the Star Wars universe. I helped the geth and the creators end a long civil war and then was forced to kill the geth and EDI my boy's new lady-robot(GF) start dating. After all that being forced to kill them to finish my mission was wrong and it felt evil. I dislike the notion that all synthetic life will turn evil one day, if they are truly self aware then like humans some will be evil and most will not.


Data almost did in Star Trek: First Contact by joining the Borg.  Organics will always have hatred and cause destruction, which is why Synthetics will turn to self-defence like how the Morning War started.


I'm pretty sure Data considered it for a fraction of a second. Though comparing the Borg to the Geth isn't quite accurate. They Borg are hybrids who seek to consume everything. Hating them is a rather natural response for organics and synthetics.

Hatred is caused by ignorance. Legion and EDI provided new information on how syntetics operated, allowing us to move away from irgnorance, and most players discovered that synthetics aren't all that alien after all. To assume organics will always degrade themselves by turning to hatred doesn't give mankind enough credit. I'd argue that the election of Obama proves we are capable of moving past bigotry and ignorance. If you expand that concept to a big enough scale, we can have peaceful interactions with alien species. Granted, we might be suspicious at first, but that is understandable as long as no one feels the need to draw a gun over simple suspicion. But if simple hatred means we can't cooperate with synthetics, how the hell are we goign to be able to cooperate with the Turians or Asari? Or even each other? Is mankind destined to destroy itself? If hatread is as commonplace as you claim, I doubt we have more than another few years before a hater manages to start a nuclear war and get rid of us all. But maybe the universe is better off without all the haters around.

#90
Blueprotoss

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Twinzam.V wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

It's not a case of synthetics specifically using organics as a resource. Organics are just swept up whilst the synthetics go about their business because they see us as having no inherent worth in being sentient. 

Like insects are killed when we walk around. Just a byproduct. 


Of course if the insects started attacking or trying to comunicate with us it would be another matter....
Meh we would just kill them all in any case. :?

Yep and organics are war to begin with because its survival of the fittest.

#91
CaptainZaysh

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eddieoctane wrote...

But all of this is made irrelevant if the Catalyst can be taken at face value, because its action refute its statement. After a billion+ years, why hasn't the purely synthetic Catalyst orchestrated the demise of all organic life? Perhaps it's because it knows it can't, or it is openly lying. In either case, the Catalyst's logic breaks down rather quickly at this point.


It seems quite obvious to me that the Catalyst is a shackled AI.

#92
Twinzam.V

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Blueprotoss wrote...

iakus wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

iakus wrote...

Asimov disagrees.

Yet the Jewish legend of the Golem, the book of Mary Shely's Frankenstein, Stanley Kubrick's , and Asimov's own I Robot disagrees with you.


Refresh my memory.  Which of those was written by Isaac Asimov?  I seem to recall  NDR-113 (aka "Andrew"), Robbie, and of course, R Daneel Olivaw...

Hal from 2001: A Space Odessey is based off of Asimov's laws yet he will still kill humans just like the synthetics in the Alien series even if some where defective.


Most of those cases where due to their programming. In Hal case was due to the sucess of the mission that made him go crazy. In the Alien series was capitali..... the programing to preserve that newly discovered life for study.
I think the only one that could be considered defective was from Prometheus, but that could also be the case that he developed free will. Since he does those things willingly. Albeit im not sure if aware of the consequences. :huh:

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 11 septembre 2012 - 04:28 .


#93
NM_Che56

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Because for them to be useful, they have to be better than us (or else, why would we need them).

Once they realize they ARE better than us, then they don't see any reason for us to exist.


One word: Skynet

#94
The Night Mammoth

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Twinzam.V wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

It's not a case of synthetics specifically using organics as a resource. Organics are just swept up whilst the synthetics go about their business because they see us as having no inherent worth in being sentient. 

Like insects are killed when we walk around. Just a byproduct. 


Of course if the insects started attacking or trying to comunicate with us it would be another matter....
Meh we would just kill them all in any case. :?


Never said it would be right, and I don't even think it's likely to happen. But that's what the OP asked; why?

Apathy, that's why. We might not kill an ant that could communicate, but that would be out of the ordinary. Synthetic life might eventually just see us like we see ants, no matter if we communicate. It'll be a natrual and incnsequential part of our existence to them. 

#95
JamieCOTC

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They only do so when idiot cuttlefish create an AI that meddles w/ the natural course of evolution.

#96
Shade of Wolf

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Because organics will make good Terminators from bad Terminators, and send them into the past to stop Terminators from being made and then go to the future to defeat the Terminators that somehow got made anyway; thus saving all synthetic life...or you can just get Reapers...

#97
eddieoctane

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The Night Mammoth wrote...


It's not a case of synthetics specifically using organics as a resource. Organics are just swept up whilst the synthetics go about their business because they see us as having no inherent worth in being sentient. 

Like insects are killed when we walk around. Just a byproduct. 


But doing so would result in a conflict which can potentially be more wasteful than what a synthetic could gain by harvesting the resources possessed by the organic race. This was the crux of my argument. Actions that cause conflict are less efficient. An AI that cares little for the experience of interacting with new life forms (which seems to not be the case for the Geth) would still seek to avoid a costly war when there are undisturbed asteroids and ice moons that hold the same or more resources than are on a planet. But as I said, there also seems to be synthetics that value experiences. Legion hints at this. And should this be the case, the AI might believe there is somethign to be gained by interacting with the organics in a meaningful way.

#98
Blueprotoss

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eddieoctane wrote...

I'm pretty sure Data considered it for a fraction of a second. Though comparing the Borg to the Geth isn't quite accurate. They Borg are hybrids who seek to consume everything. Hating them is a rather natural response for organics and synthetics.

If Data only considered it for a fraction of a second then his decision would he won't have been bouncing back and forth with his decision.  The Borg and the Geth are both based on consensus while most Borg are more synthetic then organic.

eddieoctane wrote... 

Hatred is caused by ignorance. Legion and EDI provided new information on how syntetics operated, allowing us to move away from irgnorance, and most players discovered that synthetics aren't all that alien after all. To assume organics will always degrade themselves by turning to hatred doesn't give mankind enough credit. I'd argue that the election of Obama proves we are capable of moving past bigotry and ignorance. If you expand that concept to a big enough scale, we can have peaceful interactions with alien species. Granted, we might be suspicious at first, but that is understandable as long as no one feels the need to draw a gun over simple suspicion. But if simple hatred means we can't cooperate with synthetics, how the hell are we goign to be able to cooperate with the Turians or Asari? Or even each other? Is mankind destined to destroy itself? If hatread is as commonplace as you claim, I doubt we have more than another few years before a hater manages to start a nuclear war and get rid of us all. But maybe the universe is better off without all the haters around.

Hatred isn't only based on ignorance especially when you could hate something while fully understanding and recognizing it.  Politics is a different animal especially when enough money thrown at people will eventually change their minds and when the media isn't cracking down on the lies that appear.  Hatred is a commomplace even in Star Trek and nuclear war doesn't need to happen for a large amount of hatred not to exist.

#99
Twinzam.V

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

It's not a case of synthetics specifically using organics as a resource. Organics are just swept up whilst the synthetics go about their business because they see us as having no inherent worth in being sentient. 

Like insects are killed when we walk around. Just a byproduct. 


Of course if the insects started attacking or trying to comunicate with us it would be another matter....
Meh we would just kill them all in any case. :?


Never said it would be right, and I don't even think it's likely to happen. But that's what the OP asked; why?

Apathy, that's why. We might not kill an ant that could communicate, but that would be out of the ordinary. Synthetic life might eventually just see us like we see ants, no matter if we communicate. It'll be a natrual and incnsequential part of our existence to them. 


Unless that race doesnt grasp the concept of mutual understanding, they're just a bunch of evil bastards. The Geth tried to coexist with the creators until everything went downhill. But its still possible to reach an understanding.
The repears just say we will kill you because we want to and we wont stop till everyone is dead.
Hate will generate more hate and honestly it seems the reapers are the only synthetics that want this.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 11 septembre 2012 - 04:36 .


#100
CaptainZaysh

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eddieoctane wrote...

Hatred is caused by ignorance...If hatread is as commonplace as you claim, I doubt we have more than another few years before a hater manages to start a nuclear war and get rid of us all. But maybe the universe is better off without all the haters around.


Lots of our grandparents hated the Nazis enough to carry weapons into Europe and smash apart their Empire.  Were they ignorant?  Or is it the case that hatred is actually quite useful and appropriate when confronted with hateful things?