271 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

LucasShark wrote...

Apparently simply the existence of a synthetic race makes organic genocide inevitable.  This makes no bloody sense.

Purely observed from a practical standpoint: to do this, a synthetic force would have to nuke, irradiate, and then utterly decimate every garden planet in the galaxy, repeatedly.  Given extremophiles like the Volus, and they'd have to do the same to every non-garden world as well.  Then they'd have to do it again every few millenea.  Then there's the fact that new planets are born every single moment of time.

No they wouldn't.

They wiped out nearly the entire quarian population without resulting to any of this.

You're also assuming they'll only ever destroy all organics by explicitly making that their goal. It could easily be done without any hostile intent, really. Even if you justify the geth's actions in the morning war as self-defense, that self-defense almost wiped out the entire quarian population. If you don't have enough persuation, they can finish the job, for the exact same (non-hostile) reasons again.

Say that over time, every organic race builds synthetics and are later wiped out by them, you'd see this prophecy fulfilled. From what one can gather from Leviathan, that appeared to be the way it went during its time. Only Leviathan didn't fall victim to this (until the catalyst).

It's a sisyphian task, with no possible profit or motive, and would only consume resources to eliminate threats which don't actually exist and may never exist.  Synthetics have no need for organics, and they have no need for their utter absence either.  It makes no rational sense.  The only possible explanation would be Dalek-esque hatred.

Again, you're assuming the Catalyst thinks that all synthetics will wipe out organics because they're just plain evil. He never says as much.

You had the geth wipe out almost the entire quarian population over self-defense. You had Overlord VI almost infect all synthetic tech and make them turn against us...

It doesn't matter who's fault it is, patterns do exist here. And this is from a cycle that only very recently develops true AI such as with the geth and EDI.

[Blueprotoss]

Twinzam.V wrote...

Most of those cases where due to their programming. In Hal case was due to the sucess of the mission that made him go crazy. In the Alien series was capitali..... the programing to preserve that newly discovered life for study.
I think the only one that could be considered defective was from Prometheus, but that could also be the case that he developed free will. Since he does those things willingly. Albeit im not sure if aware of the consequences. 

Whether or not it was to to their programming they still had the laws to obey alongside every directive.  The synthtic that I was talking in Alien was Ash because he was willing to kill a human and so was the Nostromo's computer that Mother was.  I didn't approve of David in Prometheus because he didn't know what would happen based on his curiousity.

[The Night Mammoth]

Twinzam.V wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

It's not a case of synthetics specifically using organics as a resource. Organics are just swept up whilst the synthetics go about their business because they see us as having no inherent worth in being sentient. 

Like insects are killed when we walk around. Just a byproduct. 

Of course if the insects started attacking or trying to comunicate with us it would be another matter....
Meh we would just kill them all in any case. 

Never said it would be right, and I don't even think it's likely to happen. But that's what the OP asked; why?

Apathy, that's why. We might not kill an ant that could communicate, but that would be out of the ordinary. Synthetic life might eventually just see us like we see ants, no matter if we communicate. It'll be a natrual and incnsequential part of our existence to them. 

Unless that race doesnt grasp the concept of mutual understanding, they're just a bunch of evil bastards.

Apathy does not necessarily mean they are evil. 

If you kill an insect, are you evil? It's the same situation.

The Geth tried to coexist with the creators until everything went downhill. But its still possible to reach an understanding.

I certainly believe so.

The repears just say we will kill you because we want to and we wont stop till everyone is dead.
Hate will generate more hate and honestly it seems the reapers are the only synthetics that want this.

Also true. 

[Twinzam.V]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

eddieoctane wrote...

Hatred is caused by ignorance...If hatread is as commonplace as you claim, I doubt we have more than another few years before a hater manages to start a nuclear war and get rid of us all. But maybe the universe is better off without all the haters around.

Lots of our grandparents hated the Nazis enough to carry weapons into Europe and smash apart their Empire.  Were they ignorant?  Or is it the case that hatred is actually quite useful and appropriate when confronted with hateful things?

You need hatred to keep the flames of war. If neither of the sides tryes to understand each other even bether.
I dont remember who said this but to demonize someone you dont need much. Draw a normal person, then add some horns an evil grin and its done.

[CronoDragoon]

The repears just say we will kill you because we want to and we wont stop till everyone is dead.
Hate will generate more hate and honestly it seems the reapers are the only synthetics that want this.

You don't need every synthetic race to want this. All you need is one, with the power to pull it off.

[aj2070]

Like the reapers?

And in the words of Obi Wan Kenobi "The Reapers are more machine than man now..."

[Twinzam.V]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Apathy does not necessarily mean they are evil. 

If you kill an insect, are you evil? It's the same situation.

You're right. Since we dont consider them to have the same level of sentience as us. 
Like i was trying to say, it would be something different if they reached that necessary level of sentience like us. 
Chimps are not the same as humans but you dont see everyone trying to kill them and they have animal rights.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 11 septembre 2012 - 04:54 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Twinzam.V wrote...

You need hatred to keep the flames of war. If neither of the sides tryes to understand each other even bether.
I dont remember who said this but to demonize someone you dont need much. Draw a normal person, then add some horns an evil grin and its done.

That's wonderful!  Instead of all this hate and demonisation, let's try and be more understanding.  Here, I'll post some photos and you can explain them to us.



/sarcasm

Sometimes hatred is exactly the correct response.

[tonnactus]

Its nonsense. Any race could decide to  expand and destroy other races in the way. This isnt limited to synthetic races. The propability is even higher in the case of an advanced organic race because,unlike robots, they would seek out habitable planets where robots could even live in space,without oxygen needing only energy.

Modifié par tonnactus, 11 septembre 2012 - 05:07 .

[General User]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

eddieoctane wrote...

But all of this is made irrelevant if the Catalyst can be taken at face value, because its action refute its statement. After a billion+ years, why hasn't the purely synthetic Catalyst orchestrated the demise of all organic life? Perhaps it's because it knows it can't, or it is openly lying. In either case, the Catalyst's logic breaks down rather quickly at this point.

It seems quite obvious to me that the Catalyst is a shackled AI.

Or perhaps a limited one? Limited in the sense that, while the Catalyst possesses great physical abilities and an impressive... computational sort of intelligence, it lacks (for lack of better terms) maturity or perception.  It cannot accurately assess itself or others or the place they have in the universe, and thus the Catalyst is a monster.

That's my pet theory anyway (not that the two are necessarily exclusive).

[mhammer50]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

eddieoctane wrote...

Hatred is caused by ignorance...If hatread is as commonplace as you claim, I doubt we have more than another few years before a hater manages to start a nuclear war and get rid of us all. But maybe the universe is better off without all the haters around.

Lots of our grandparents hated the Nazis enough to carry weapons into Europe and smash apart their Empire.  Were they ignorant?  Or is it the case that hatred is actually quite useful and appropriate when confronted with hateful things?

Nice.

[mhammer50]

My biggest issue with this idea is how it is the exact opposite of what seemed to be the ME spirit if you will. How most conflicts can be over come if we actually took the time think about what is really important.

[eddieoctane]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

eddieoctane wrote...

But all of this is made irrelevant if the Catalyst can be taken at face value, because its action refute its statement. After a billion+ years, why hasn't the purely synthetic Catalyst orchestrated the demise of all organic life? Perhaps it's because it knows it can't, or it is openly lying. In either case, the Catalyst's logic breaks down rather quickly at this point.

It seems quite obvious to me that the Catalyst is a shackled AI.

Then allow me to provide my own speculation as to the Catalyst's actions: whether out of fear or simply being an AI, the catalyst wishes to eliminate all organics. The bit about "preserving life" is hard-coded into the shackles, however. So it cannot sterilize the galaxy outright. In order to avoid conflicting with its programming, the Catalyst has organics rounded up and turned into Reapers. It claims to only do so with advanced civilizations, ostensibly those who have developed space-flight and made it to the Citadel. However, history shows that any civilization who has attained agriculture is no more than about 10,000 years from being space-faring. any species, even if all they do is farm right now, will make it onto the galactic stage with 40,000 years or more to advance before the Reapers show up.

There were two borderline neolithic societies whose worlds could be scanned in ME2. Both were decimated by an orbital bombardment targeting population centers. If this was done by an AI who were after resources, the planets would have been stripped bare. A more logical explanation was that the Reapers leveled those two planets before they retreated to dark space during a previous cycle. Any world that far advanced at the end of one cycle would have tens of thousands of years to develop before the Reapers returned. Given the seeming plethora of intelligent species all in contact at the current time in the game, it would stand to reason that there should have been other worlds that were more developed than the Asari. Why did everyone manage to get to the galactic stage only i the last 2 millenia or so?

The most logical explanation is that the Catalyst orders the destruction of any race that has advanced to the neolithic level. By doing so, it ensures that no one will have more than a comparatively short window of time to examine the Citadel and potentially prepare for the Reapers. But why would it do this? Why would the Catalyst target species that aren't even building anything stronger than a mud brick or thatch hut? I propose that the Catalyst fears organics. It eliminated the Leviathans because it understood the threat they posed to it. It targets civilizations who don't even know that their worlds are round because they will pose a potential threat. It is simply acting out of fear and self-preservation. Even the creation of the Reapers is to provide itself with an army to defend as well as to avoid a critical programming error from violating its shackled code. The story about synthetics always being a threat to organics is bunk, just a story concocted by a lying little hologram in order to avoid Shepard taking the option of destroying it. The only reason why destruction is presented as an option is because of the shackled nature of the Catalyst. It simply has to explain how to disable it as part of the same hard coding that prevents it from killing all organics in one foul swoop.

And there you have it. A shackled AI acting out of fear is responsible for the entire mess we have. It's not organics' hatred of somethign different that causes the conflict, it's the Catalyst trying to preserve itself against an entire galaxy that should rightfully demand its destruction.

[The Night Mammoth]

Twinzam.V wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Apathy does not necessarily mean they are evil. 

If you kill an insect, are you evil? It's the same situation.

You're right. Since we dont consider them to have the same level of sentience as us. 
Like i was trying to say, it would be something different if they reached that necessary level of sentience like us. 
Chimps are not the same as humans but you dont see everyone trying to kill them and they have animal rights.

Yet plenty of chimps still die due to poaching and destruction of their habitat. 

Not every human has the same opinion, obviously, I'd bet synthetics would be the same. 

Except they could reach a level so high above us that we are ants. 

[EricHVela]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Apathy does not necessarily mean they are evil. 

If you kill an insect, are you evil? It's the same situation.

You're right. Since we dont consider them to have the same level of sentience as us. 
Like i was trying to say, it would be something different if they reached that necessary level of sentience like us. 
Chimps are not the same as humans but you dont see everyone trying to kill them and they have animal rights.

Yet plenty of chimps still die due to poaching and destruction of their habitat. 

Not every human has the same opinion, obviously, I'd bet synthetics would be the same. 

Except they could reach a level so high above us that we are ants. 

Do you talk to ants? Do poachers talk to their prey?

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 11 septembre 2012 - 05:33 .

[Twinzam.V]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

You need hatred to keep the flames of war. If neither of the sides tryes to understand each other even bether.
I dont remember who said this but to demonize someone you dont need much. Draw a normal person, then add some horns an evil grin and its done.

That's wonderful!  Instead of all this hate and demonisation, let's try and be more understanding.  Here, I'll post some photos and you can explain them to us.



/sarcasm

Sometimes hatred is exactly the correct response.

That's the major problem i find with the Catalyst. He says he's there to prevent this kind of things (but with synthetics included), however is actions show the total opposite and propagate hate and conflict directly or inderectly. 
So when someone says that theres logic in what he says, i remember these kind of things and say "Rrrriiiiiiggghhhttt. Perfectly logical. Saving us by killing us. LOGIC.". 
Starbrat doesnt realize he's part of the problem.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 11 septembre 2012 - 05:39 .

[eddieoctane]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

eddieoctane wrote...

Hatred is caused by ignorance...If hatread is as commonplace as you claim, I doubt we have more than another few years before a hater manages to start a nuclear war and get rid of us all. But maybe the universe is better off without all the haters around.

Lots of our grandparents hated the Nazis enough to carry weapons into Europe and smash apart their Empire.  Were they ignorant?  Or is it the case that hatred is actually quite useful and appropriate when confronted with hateful things?

The US only entered the battlefields of WWII after it was attacked first. And many of those who served in WWII were not there out of a hatred for fascism. They were drafted. They had no choice to not fight. And of those who did volunteer, it wasn't always an opposition to Hitler but a love for America that prompted their service. Remember, the US was attacked before it sent combat forces out. Japan dragged the US into WWII, and Germany decided to back its ally, resulting in our involvement in all theaters. It was self-defense, not hatred, which brought America into the war.

What's more, it was simple hatred that caused the Holocaust. If not for such pettiness, the First and Second World Wars need not have occurred to begin with.

And there is a term for what you feel when you see pictures of concentration camps. It's called righteous indignation. There are times when it is appropriate to feel anger, when it is morally acceptable desire to mete out justice. Mass murder of civilians is one of those times. But if hatred is what drove you to war, you can never feel as though someone has payed the price. The conflict can never end. It would mean you still hate all Germans today, just because. And that isn't acceptable.

[Blueprotoss]

Twinzam.V wrote...

That's the major problem i find with the Catalyst. He says he's there to prevent this kind of things (but with synthetics included), however is actions show the total opposite and propagate hate and conflict directly or inderectly. 
So when someone says that theres logic in what he says, i remember these kind of things and say "Rrrriiiiiiggghhhttt. Perfectly logical. Saving us by killing us. LOGIC.". 

The Catalyst is here to prevent the extinction of all organics because an organic race would eventually create a SKYNET.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 11 septembre 2012 - 05:39 .

[EricHVela]

Twinzam.V wrote...

He says he's there to prevent this kind of things (but with synthetics included), however is actions show the total opposite and propagate hate and conflict directly or inderectly. 
So when someone says that theres logic in what he says, i remember these kind of things and say "Rrrriiiiiiggghhhttt. Perfectly logical. Saving us by killing us. LOGIC.". 

In the Leviathan DLC, we discover that the Intelligence[sic]/Catalyst is looking for something to achieve its directive, and it created the pattern of the cycles to facilitate the development of the Galaxy after each reboot. Shepard equated it to a galactic experiment.

[Twinzam.V]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

That's the major problem i find with the Catalyst. He says he's there to prevent this kind of things (but with synthetics included), however is actions show the total opposite and propagate hate and conflict directly or inderectly. 
So when someone says that theres logic in what he says, i remember these kind of things and say "Rrrriiiiiiggghhhttt. Perfectly logical. Saving us by killing us. LOGIC.". 

The Catalyst is here to prevent the extinction of all organics because an organic race would eventually create a SKYNET.

Now someone just needs to tell him he's also Skynet and he's doing it better.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 11 septembre 2012 - 05:41 .

[Blueprotoss]

eddieoctane wrote...

The US only entered the battlefields of WWII after it was attacked first. And many of those who served in WWII were not there out of a hatred for fascism. They were drafted. They had no choice to not fight. And of those who did volunteer, it wasn't always an opposition to Hitler but a love for America that prompted their service. Remember, the US was attacked before it sent combat forces out. Japan dragged the US into WWII, and Germany decided to back its ally, resulting in our involvement in all theaters. It was self-defense, not hatred, which brought America into the war.

What's more, it was simple hatred that caused the Holocaust. If not for such pettiness, the First and Second World Wars need not have occurred to begin with.

And there is a term for what you feel when you see pictures of concentration camps. It's called righteous indignation. There are times when it is appropriate to feel anger, when it is morally acceptable desire to mete out justice. Mass murder of civilians is one of those times. But if hatred is what drove you to war, you can never feel as though someone has payed the price. The conflict can never end. It would mean you still hate all Germans today, just because. And that isn't acceptable.

Yet you forgot about Pearl Habor along with the general racism that some people had from Japanese and German Americans.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 11 septembre 2012 - 05:42 .

[Blueprotoss]

Twinzam.V wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

That's the major problem i find with the Catalyst. He says he's there to prevent this kind of things (but with synthetics included), however is actions show the total opposite and propagate hate and conflict directly or inderectly. 
So when someone says that theres logic in what he says, i remember these kind of things and say "Rrrriiiiiiggghhhttt. Perfectly logical. Saving us by killing us. LOGIC.". 

The Catalyst is here to prevent the extinction of all organics because an organic race would eventually create a SKYNET.

Now someone just needs to tell him he's also Skynet and he's doing it better.

SKYNET would destroy all organic life while the Catalyst keeps organic life in check.

[The Night Mammoth]

ReggarBlane wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Apathy does not necessarily mean they are evil. 

If you kill an insect, are you evil? It's the same situation.

You're right. Since we dont consider them to have the same level of sentience as us. 
Like i was trying to say, it would be something different if they reached that necessary level of sentience like us. 
Chimps are not the same as humans but you dont see everyone trying to kill them and they have animal rights.

Yet plenty of chimps still die due to poaching and destruction of their habitat. 

Not every human has the same opinion, obviously, I'd bet synthetics would be the same. 

Except they could reach a level so high above us that we are ants. 

Do you talk to ants? Do poachers talk to their prey?

The synthetics simply wont care. 

Apathy, remember? 

Communication, no matter how much it my affect a human, could be as inconsequential as an ant moving its antenna. 

[Twinzam.V]

Blueprotoss wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

Twinzam.V wrote...

That's the major problem i find with the Catalyst. He says he's there to prevent this kind of things (but with synthetics included), however is actions show the total opposite and propagate hate and conflict directly or inderectly. 
So when someone says that theres logic in what he says, i remember these kind of things and say "Rrrriiiiiiggghhhttt. Perfectly logical. Saving us by killing us. LOGIC.". 

The Catalyst is here to prevent the extinction of all organics because an organic race would eventually create a SKYNET.

Now someone just needs to tell him he's also Skynet and he's doing it better.

SKYNET would destroy all organic life while the Catalyst keeps organic life in check.

Then proceeds to destroy it. I dont know if he's being sarcastic or just cruel, taunting the galaxy like this. He's basically preventing evolution and in two known cases his intervention wasnt necessary.
Javik said they had a war with synthetics and they were winning until the Reapers appeared.
How the catalyst reached the conclusion that they would lose eventually or create more synthetics, he never explains.
With Shepard you can make peace with the Geth or kill them, there's a chance that the same mistakes could be repeated, Cerberus created EDI and it would be odd if military isnt trying to create AI WMD's that could wipe us out.
After all a day without the galaxy being in the brink of destruction is a bad day for the military. 

In this case however the Geth where influenced by the reapers. How can he be so certain that the Geth wouldnt be defeated, if we can destroy them even with the advantage of Reaper technology.
The Catalyst is essencialy part of the problem and not the solution.

Modifié par Twinzam.V, 11 septembre 2012 - 05:58 .

[Blueprotoss]

Twinzam.V wrote...

Then proceeds to destroy it. I dont know if he's being sarcastic or just cruel, taunting the galaxy like this. He's basically preventing evolution and in two known cases his intervention wasnt necessary.
Javik said they had a war with synthetics and they were winning until the Reapers appeared.
How the catalyst reached the conclusion that they would lose eventually or create more synthetics, he never explains.
With Shepard you can make peace with the Geth or kill them, there's a chance that the same mistakes could be repeated, Cerberus created EDI and it would be odd if military isnt trying to create WMD's that could wipe us out.
After all a day without the galaxy being in the brink of destruction is a bad day for the military. 

In this case however the Geth where influenced by the reapers. How can he be so certain that the Geth wouldnt be defeated, if we can destroy them even with the advantage of Reaper technology.
The Catalyst is essencialy part of the problem and not the solution.

SKYNET would destroy all organic life while the Catalyst keeps organic life in check.  Prevention is what the Catalyst is doing unlike mass extinction that SKYNET does.