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[The Night Mammoth]

NS Wizdum wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

Theres not enough raw materials in the universe to create the numbers of synthetics that would be required to wipe out all organic life. Its just not going to happen.

Eventually the time comes when you can't hide from the things you've done.

They don't need a massive army. They would never do it that way. 

They need an occupation force. The universe is too large for them to travel between galaxies, wiping out organics. by the time they got to the last galaxy, millions of organic races would have risen, fallen, and expanded.

 for the purposes of the discussion I'm assuming we're talking solely about our own galaxy.

When we're talking about "wiping out all organics", thats a pretty big limitation. You can make anything true if you limit the scope of your test enough.

I'm going to end world hunger tomorrow. By "end world hunger" I mean that I will make breakfast for myself.

That's a bit of a strawman, really. 

The idea even within Mass Effect doesn't go further than the Milky Way. 

Edit: To expand upon this, a synthetic race would see that a mission to destroy all organics is impossible, and thus a waste of time. They lack the emotional drive (hatred) required to attempt something this futile.

The death of all organics wouldn't be their mission. The death of all organics would be the by-product of their continued expansion. 

Although I feel I've moved away from what the Catalyst actually says, which is more along the lines of synthetics and organics never being able to just get along, and the former wanting to eradicate the latter for no specified reason of any sort. 

So really, I have no idea in regards to the OP, and that's why this part of plot has been selectively removed in my view of the canon and rewrite. 

Because it's stupid. 

Really stupid. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 12 septembre 2012 - 02:36 .

[MegaSovereign]

MegaSovereign wrote...

It's already explained in the narrative. Organics try to control their creations and this backfires.

No it doesn't mean that synthetics actively seek out to destroy organics because raisins. It just means directly and indirectly, organics creating synthetics eventually leads to their destruction.

In case the OP missed it.

[GreyLycanTrope]

MegaSovereign wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

It's already explained in the narrative. Organics try to control their creations and this backfires.

No it doesn't mean that synthetics actively seek out to destroy organics because raisins. It just means directly and indirectly, organics creating synthetics eventually leads to their destruction.

In case the OP missed it.

Are you talking to yourself?

[Ramus Quaritch]

Because the stupid AI Starchild thinks so, it is so.

[MegaSovereign]

Greylycantrope wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

It's already explained in the narrative. Organics try to control their creations and this backfires.

No it doesn't mean that synthetics actively seek out to destroy organics because raisins. It just means directly and indirectly, organics creating synthetics eventually leads to their destruction.

In case the OP missed it.

Are you talking to yourself?

Yes, I only agree with myself these days.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 12 septembre 2012 - 02:46 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Well you are a nation

[MegaSovereign]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Well you are a nation

Free of all weaknesses.

[Dharvy]

MegaSovereign, probably have the gist of it. Simply looking at the Morning War, the Geth and Quarian conflict nearly extinct the Quarians and only a miracle, fluke, or what have you saved the Quarians. The Geth was not at a point in their computing power to make a calculation as to the ramifications of finishing the job aka they couldn't reach a consensus. So according to the story the Created wipes the Creators or nearly do. To say otherwise just seems like depending on some fluke, miracle, lucky chance it don't happen as with the Morning War. And gambling on some luck or miracle that every turns out alright maybe just as illogical as assuming the worst and preparing for it.

There's not blood thirsty genocidal need to wipe out organics. It could be something as simple as the mandatory conflict that exist amongst organics and life itself that extends to the survival of the fittest and the fittest being synthetics, making them come out the winner.

[MegaSovereign]

The current cycle is suppose to be an anomaly, The Geth/Quarian peace could be part of that.

It was clearly a problem in past cycles and with the Leviathans.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 12 septembre 2012 - 03:05 .

[spirosz]

I don't know, Android 16 is pretty chills.

[MegaSovereign]

spirosz wrote...

I don't know, Android 16 is pretty chills.

Maybe synthetics are a threat because Cell is out there trying to absorb them.

[spirosz]

MegaSovereign wrote...

spirosz wrote...

I don't know, Android 16 is pretty chills.

Maybe synthetics are a threat because Cell is out there trying to absorb them.

You know, you might be right.  

[Han Shot First]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

They want materials.

Organics have materials in their bodies. Apathy is a real d*ckhead, sometimes. 

Humans (and presumably aliens) are primarily made of oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus. All of those elements are abundant in the universe. In fact hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, and nitrogen are all among the top 10 most common elements found in our galaxy. Synthetics would not need to harvest us for any of them.

[The Night Mammoth]

Han Shot First wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

They want materials.

Organics have materials in their bodies. Apathy is a real d*ckhead, sometimes. 

Humans (and presumably aliens) are primarily made of oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus. All of those elements are abundant in the universe. In fact hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, and nitrogen are all among the top 10 most common elements found in our galaxy. Synthetics would not need to harvest us for any of them.

Read further on in the thread for more info. 

[3DandBeyond]

I don't think synthetics would care that much about organics.

Because that's a very narrow-minded way to view them, to think that everything they think or do once they become intelligent, revolves around organics. They either hate or love organics. Why can't they just decide to ignore them? If synthetics are destined to surpass their creators then why must their intelligence always be geared to how they will think of us when that happens?

Is it naturally so that anyone that becomes intelligent must become a killer-if not, then why would they? And wouldn't they see the logic of actually not wanting some of their own number destroyed or damaged? And what would they gain by killing organics if there was no real reason?

The problem is destroy as it is now might give them a reason for doing so if some are created in the future. If somehow it's known that Shepard killed them and I think it would be, then that might cause them to think synthetic life has no value.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 12 septembre 2012 - 04:24 .

[tonnactus]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

This is an actual prediction that's been proposed by some people. Smart people. 

Look at the prediction smart people made about the future and how often they were wrong. Cars engines driven by nuclear batteries for example. The point that "smart people" suggest something doesnt make it true and isnt exactly an argument.

[The Night Mammoth]

tonnactus wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

This is an actual prediction that's been proposed by some people. Smart people. 

Look at the prediction smart people made about the future and how often they were wrong. Cars engines driven by nuclear batteries for example. The point that "smart people" suggest something doesnt make it true and isnt exactly an argument.

I never said it was inevitable. 

I never said I beleived it. 

Quite the contrary on both points. 

What I meant was that what I said wasn't something I just thought up on the spot, other people have theorized it. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 12 septembre 2012 - 12:22 .

[LilLino]

Why not? Geth wipe out the Quarians in ME3 if you choose Geth. You can say 'but it was to save their race from extinction!'. Reasons don't matter. Quarians are dead in that scenario.

When 2 sides of conflict don't give a damn about understanding one another each other one side will eventually wipe the other out. Especially when it's synthetics, who don't give a crap about value of life as they themselves are mostly immortal.

[Someone With Mass]

Because the forced plot says so.

[CroGamer002]

LilLino wrote...

Why not? Geth wipe out the Quarians in ME3 if you choose Geth. You can say 'but it was to save their race from extinction!'. Reasons don't matter. Quarians are dead in that scenario.

When 2 sides of conflict don't give a damn about understanding one another each other one side will eventually wipe the other out. Especially when it's synthetics, who don't give a crap about value of life as they themselves are mostly immortal.

Except that geth flat out say that they regret the deaths of the quarians.

And only thing that saves quarians in that scene is if you convince them to stop shooting at the geth.
THAT.
IS.
IT.

Geth then do not have a reason to kill them. They are no longer a threat to them.

Quarians in other hand, mostly do not think geth are a living things and are just a killing machines.
They do not value geth as a living beings, so they kept shooting at them. Even if it led to to their extinction, due to their desperation.


So I don't know about you, but to me it looks like there's conflict between synthetics and organics is because, organics are arrogant pricks and won't let synthetics to live free.

[SebAusFR]

It makes more sense if you look past the "current" synthetics and consider immensively advanced synthetics, post-singularity ones using futurist vocabulary.

At that point, their scale would be so different from what we know that they'd need to operate "brains" composed of extremely dense computing matrices, the size of planets, networked together to reach processing power well well beyond what the synthetics of the 2180s have. They might not have any goal of exterminating intelligent organic life, but the sheer scale of the engineering they need to sustain they own operations might lead the extinction of organics as a side effect. If you are a machine civilisation that requires all the energy output of the Galaxy (type III on the Kardashev scale), you might not care about killing the little bugs that are in front of your Dyson swarm building ship while you dismantle their planet, if if these bugs fly in FTL spaceships...

The point of the Reapers/Catalyst is to avoid this by stopping any civilisation from building such machines.

Modifié par SebAusFR, 12 septembre 2012 - 01:00 .

[Blueprotoss]

Twinzam.V wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

SKYNET would destroy all organic life while the Catalyst keeps organic life in check.  Prevention is what the Catalyst is doing unlike mass extinction that SKYNET does.

If you're trying to prevent someone from getting burned would you chop his hands or kill them. 
No.  You might give them a slap and put them under supervision, not grab a knife and stab them to prevent a burn.

SKYNET isn't preventable and was always inevitable like the Reapers.

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Skynet wasn't about wiping out all organic life, just humans. 

If thats the case then SKYNET wouldn't have used hundreds of nukes after it went self-aware. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 12 septembre 2012 - 01:50 .

[Blueprotoss]

dreman9999 wrote...

Here the thingyou missing. Organics always are the ones attacking synthetics first or the synthetic always attack based on a flaw in the there programing or how it's progrmed
Overlord is an example of this.
If the overlordin that dlc uploaded tot he rest of the galexy, the machines whould attackand kill off everyone simple because they were told to.
Synthetic will not kill off organics on there own. They neverwill. Organic will alway hit the bee hive that will get them to do that.

Organics and synthetics are both guilty of starting wars just like how the Geth and Quarians kept on fighting over and over again.

Code_R wrote...

Because the argument is stupid. We spent the whole story findng out how tolerance and peace can be achieved, only to be told that we will be destroyed for being different to them. Reapers were once described as being beyond understanding, then get reduced to this useless "because that's just how it is" plot device.

Tolerance and ignorance will always be around because one can't exist without the other like yin and yang.

NS Wizdum wrote...

Theres not enough raw materials in the universe to create the numbers of synthetics that would be required to wipe out all organic life. Its just not going to happen.

Eventually the time comes when you can't hide from the things you've done.

Yet the Reapers keep on gaining numbers based on the selective harvesting of organics for billions of years. 

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 12 septembre 2012 - 02:03 .

[Blueprotoss]

MegaSovereign wrote...

spirosz wrote...

I don't know, Android 16 is pretty chills.

Maybe synthetics are a threat because Cell is out there trying to absorb them.

To be fair the blame goes to Bulma on Cell's arrival since she did build a Time Machine.  The blame also belongs to Dr. Gero based on his search for vengeance on Goku.  16 was ironically fine without killing organics while 17 and 18 killed for fun.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 12 septembre 2012 - 02:09 .

[MissOuJ]

LucasShark wrote...

This is yet another sentiment which drives me absolutely nuts about the ending, and indeed a lot of "pro enders".

Apparently simply the existence of a synthetic race makes organic genocide inevitable.  This makes no bloody sense.

[some Leviathan spoilers, so proceed with caution]

The way I see it (and I think Leviathan pretty much confirmed it) is that this cycle is kind of programmed into the Catalyst itself: it is a presupposition that becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. It is also possible that the Catalyst misinterpreted the conflicts (ie. wars) which happened between synthetics and organics not because synthetics are synthetics and organics are organics and that's what'll always happen (as its programming asumed: it was made to faciliate peaceful co-existence between these two factions which always ended up bashing each others face's in in its own cycle), but because of unbalanced power dynamics - Quarians and the Geth being a perfect example.

It's (pretty backwards/buggy) logic also states that it's supposed to harvest/save both organic and synthetic lifeforms from this "inevidable" conflict so their ... ehh... essence/knowledge can be presered until the "final evolution of life" (ie Synthesis) is reached and everything can be (by its machine logic) lovely-dovely.

So, in short: the Catalyst has a bug, so you can choose from three options: Hard reboot (Destroy), patch (Control) or Linux (Synthesis).



/headcanon

Modifié par MissOuJ, 12 septembre 2012 - 02:47 .