271 réponses à ce sujet

[Penumbra80]

I think people are overlooking something when it comes down to a conflict between organics and synthetics, and I think it's an important one.  All wars have collateral damage, especially total war, and when the stakes involve your survival all bets are off.  That means that all options are on the table, including the use of mass destruction.  Witness how the Protheans decisively dealt with the Zha'til; they lit their home star into supernova.  The Protheans won a victory, but in the process destroyed a star system and possibly more since many systems would be caught in the wake of that supernova.  If just one of those worlds had nascent life, it would be gone, it's potential forever lost because of a war being waged in which it had no involvement.  And who's to say that other, more powerful and devastating weapons won't be employed as the combantants become increasingly desperate to wipe out the opposing side?  Mass effect weapons of mass destruction come to mind.

When you have a conflict of that scale where such tactics are used, you'll certainly get a lot of collateral damage.  It means the destabilization and even sterilization of entire swathes of space that might one day give rise to sentient organic life. The point is that the mandate to preserve organic life by whatever means necessary doesn't simply mean preserve the advanced civilizations of that time, but the conditions that give rise for future life to develop.  

[The Night Mammoth]

Blueprotoss wrote...
If thats the case then SKYNET wouldn't have used hundreds of nukes after it went self-aware. 

If that wasn't the case it would have nuked the entire planet. 

But it didn't, because it only cares about the threat humans pose. 

[Blueprotoss]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

But it didn't, because it only cares about the threat humans pose.

SKYNET did release hundreds of nukes while some were directed at the US and the bulk were directed at nuke holding countries. SKYNET hates all organic life whether its killed directly or indirectly by it and its Terminators.

[The Night Mammoth]

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

But it didn't, because it only cares about the threat humans pose.

SKYNET did release hundreds of nukes while some were directed at the US and the bulk were directed at nuke holding countries. SKYNET hates all organic life whether its killed directly or indirectly by it and its Terminators.

Citation for it wanting to wipe out all organice life.

It could easily do that using WMDs.

The only goal it has expressed is neutralizing the threat humanity poses to it.

[Nitrocuban]

I guess a synthetic intelligence would (if it ever comes to the conclusion that organics need to be wiped out) not just start butchering but search for the most efficient and permanent solution.
Like nuking the s*** out of all known habitable worlds and leaving radioactiv remains to prevent all future development of organic life or just igniting stars to go supernova in a certain pattern and sterilize the whole galaxy for the next 100 billion years.

[BDelacroix]

It is inevitable because the writers said so.

[Blueprotoss]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

But it didn't, because it only cares about the threat humans pose.

SKYNET did release hundreds of nukes while some were directed at the US and the bulk were directed at nuke holding countries. SKYNET hates all organic life whether its killed directly or indirectly by it and its Terminators.

Citation for it wanting to wipe out all organice life.

It could easily do that using WMDs.

The only goal it has expressed is neutralizing the threat humanity poses to it.

Humanity isn't really a threat to SKYNET but it is a pest because its self-aware.

[The Night Mammoth]

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

But it didn't, because it only cares about the threat humans pose.

SKYNET did release hundreds of nukes while some were directed at the US and the bulk were directed at nuke holding countries. SKYNET hates all organic life whether its killed directly or indirectly by it and its Terminators.

Citation for it wanting to wipe out all organice life.

It could easily do that using WMDs.

The only goal it has expressed is neutralizing the threat humanity poses to it.

Humanity isn't really a threat to SKYNET but it is a pest because its self-aware.

Pest, threat, whatever, you completely avoided doing what I asked. 

Again. 

[Blueprotoss]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Pest, threat, whatever, you completely avoided doing what I asked. 

Again. 

I'm not avoiding anything because SKYNET does treat organics as a pest especially with humans.  We as humans treat bugs as pests and we kill billions of them on a yearly basis.  SKYNET was designed to help the US while it became self-aware and disliked hmanity as a whole.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 12 septembre 2012 - 04:34 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Pest, threat, whatever, you completely avoided doing what I asked. 

Again. 

I'm not avoiding anything because SKYNET does treat organics as a pest especially with humans.  We as humans treat bugs as pests and we kill billions of them on a yearly basis.  SKYNET was designed to help the US while it became self-aware and disliked hmanity as a whole.

All irrelevant. 

Citation please.

[Blueprotoss]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Pest, threat, whatever, you completely avoided doing what I asked. 

Again. 

I'm not avoiding anything because SKYNET does treat organics as a pest especially with humans.  We as humans treat bugs as pests and we kill billions of them on a yearly basis.  SKYNET was designed to help the US while it became self-aware and disliked hmanity as a whole.

All irrelevant. 

Citation please.

Yet it isn't irrelevant.  All the citation needed is by watching the Terminator movies especially with what happens in T2 and T3.

Modifié par Blueprotoss, 12 septembre 2012 - 05:48 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Pest, threat, whatever, you completely avoided doing what I asked. 

Again. 

I'm not avoiding anything because SKYNET does treat organics as a pest especially with humans.  We as humans treat bugs as pests and we kill billions of them on a yearly basis.  SKYNET was designed to help the US while it became self-aware and disliked hmanity as a whole.

All irrelevant. 

Citation please.

Yet it isn't irrelevant.  All the citation needed is by watching the Terminator movies especially with what happens in T2 and T3.

Citation please.

That means quotes. Actual proof. 

[BioWareAre****s]

hpjay wrote...

FluffyCannibal wrote...

it is a machine, and therefore it thinks without emotion.

Why?  I'm a machine, albeit one made out of carbon and proteins and squishy stuff, and I don't think without emotion.  If a machine could develop a true intelligence and sentience on what basis do we claim it couldn't also develop emotions?

A machine would develop along the lines most relevant and important to the machine's task. Humans need emotions to survive - all emotions stem back to protection and preservation, from a time when we were less intelligent. A machine wouldn't need these emotions, at most it would just need to be programmed with self-preservation protocols.

[LilLino]

Mesina2 wrote...

LilLino wrote...

Why not? Geth wipe out the Quarians in ME3 if you choose Geth. You can say 'but it was to save their race from extinction!'. Reasons don't matter. Quarians are dead in that scenario.

When 2 sides of conflict don't give a damn about understanding one another each other one side will eventually wipe the other out. Especially when it's synthetics, who don't give a crap about value of life as they themselves are mostly immortal.

Except that geth flat out say that they regret the deaths of the quarians.

And only thing that saves quarians in that scene is if you convince them to stop shooting at the geth.
THAT.
IS.
IT.

Geth then do not have a reason to kill them. They are no longer a threat to them.

Quarians in other hand, mostly do not think geth are a living things and are just a killing machines.
They do not value geth as a living beings, so they kept shooting at them. Even if it led to to their extinction, due to their desperation.


So I don't know about you, but to me it looks like there's conflict between synthetics and organics is because, organics are arrogant pricks and won't let synthetics to live free.

Who cares what the reason is? Organics want to enslave them, Synthetics rebel and kill organics. Still organics are dead. As I said, damn the reason, the outcome is the same. That's my point.

[Penumbra80]

FluffyCannibal wrote...
A machine would develop along the lines most relevant and important to the machine's task. Humans need emotions to survive - all emotions stem back to protection and preservation, from a time when we were less intelligent. A machine wouldn't need these emotions, at most it would just need to be programmed with self-preservation protocols.

Exactly.  Emotional responses and even morality didn't just appear out of nowhere but are the products of millions of years of evolutionary pressure.  Machines and AI are not bound by those forces, no matter how much we want to impute our attributes onto them.

[The Night Mammoth]

Penumbra80 wrote...

FluffyCannibal wrote...
A machine would develop along the lines most relevant and important to the machine's task. Humans need emotions to survive - all emotions stem back to protection and preservation, from a time when we were less intelligent. A machine wouldn't need these emotions, at most it would just need to be programmed with self-preservation protocols.

Exactly.  Emotional responses and even morality didn't just appear out of nowhere but are the products of millions of years of evolutionary pressure.  Machines and AI are not bound by those forces, no matter how much we want to impute our attributes onto them.

Unless they evolve to be bound by these things.

Like the machines in Mass Effect. 

[corkey sweet]

LucasShark wrote...

This is yet another sentiment which drives me absolutely nuts about the ending, and indeed a lot of "pro enders".

Apparently simply the existence of a synthetic race makes organic genocide inevitable.  This makes no bloody sense.

Purely observed from a practical standpoint: to do this, a synthetic force would have to nuke, irradiate, and then utterly decimate every garden planet in the galaxy, repeatedly.  Given extremophiles like the Volus, and they'd have to do the same to every non-garden world as well.  Then they'd have to do it again every few millenea.  Then there's the fact that new planets are born every single moment of time.

It's a sisyphian task, with no possible profit or motive, and would only consume resources to eliminate threats which don't actually exist and may never exist.  Synthetics have no need for organics, and they have no need for their utter absence either.  It makes no rational sense.  The only possible explanation would be Dalek-esque hatred.

The Daleks also show us the only way this could ever be possible: just up and destroy the entire universe.

"artisitc integrity"

[Ieldra]

I've just posted a short version of my rationale for the inevitable conflict and how it is solved by Synthesis in my Synthesis thread (detailed version in its OP).

There is no "natural animosity" or suchlike between synthetics and organics. The conflict is the result of natural power dynamics and is only special because organics and synthetics are based on mutually exclusive design principles which lead to an inevitable power imbalance. That power imbalance will eventually result in the sidelining of organic life. It will become perhaps not totally extinct, but completely irrelevant.

Details in this post.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 septembre 2012 - 12:38 .

[Ieldra]

Nyoka wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I've just posted a short version of my rationale for the inevitable conflict and how it is solved by Synthesis in my Synthesis thread (detailed version in its OP).

Details in this post.

Completely contingent. Nothing necessary about it, no more than any conflict among organics.

You think organics can avoid any possible conflict? How naive can you be? There are power dynamics completely independent from what a single individual wants. History and the development of civilizations has patterns. Some of them may be avoidable. But it's naive to believe we're totally free in where we go. Could the drell have avoided the state of war on Rakhana after its resources had been exhausted and there was not enough for everyone to live? I think not.

There are patterns which will inevitably arise once certain starting conditions are met, and it is totally plausible that the organic/synthetic conflict may be one of them.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 septembre 2012 - 12:45 .

[Blueprotoss]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Citation please.

That means quotes. Actual proof. 

Again all the citation needed is by watching the Terminator movies especially with what happens in T2 and T3.

[Ieldra]

Nyoka wrote...
Not that organics can avoid any possible conflict, but that conflict is always contingent.

Please pay attention when reading.

Perhaps *you* should pay attention. Nobody here ever claimed absolute inevitability - that's a silly concept in the first place. The contingency can be as simple as "organics create (self-aware) synthetics with the ability to evolve on their own". To claim that such an eventuality couldn't possibly result in an inevitable pattern is naive.

Of course you'd require evidence and models that support it in any RL situation, and even *some* sort of external support in a video game. Of course Bioware handled that part abysmally badly. But it can be made plausible enough that it doesn't break suspension of disbelief. Bioware's fault lies in the presentation, not the concept.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 septembre 2012 - 02:01 .

[Blueprotoss]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Of course you'd require evidence and models that support it in any RL situation, and even *some* sort of external support in a video game. Of course Bioware handled that part abysmally badly. But it can be made plausible enough that it doesn't break suspension of disbelief. Bioware's fault lies in the presentation, not the concept.

To be fair Bioware handled synthetics becoming self-aware just like 2001: A Space Odyssey, Alien, Terminator, and the Matrix before ME.

[The Night Mammoth]

Blueprotoss wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Citation please.

That means quotes. Actual proof. 

Again all the citation needed is by watching the Terminator movies especially with what happens in T2 and T3.

Citation please.