30 réponses à ce sujet

[Lazy Jer]

First of all, sorry if this has already been brought up, but I'm too dang lazy to research it.  *shrug* It's all in the name, kids.

Anyway I've been wondering how the story, characters would have changed if all the Hawke siblings made it to Kirkwall.  The way I see it the whole thing depends vastly on the class you play, but other interesting factors is your Hawke's personality, who you bring on the expedition, and who you end up working for at the beginning of Act 1.

An especially interesting scenario, in my opinion, is what happens if you left both your siblings at home and went on the expedition yourself.  This puts Carver in the position of joining the Templars and Bethany joining the circle at the same time.  The way I see it this puts Hawke in a position of seeing his brother and Cullen carting her off.  The way I see it there's no way Hawke is going to believe that Carver didn't turn Bethany in, regardless of how much Bethany claims it was her idea.  At the very least he'll suspect that Carver talked her into it.  Lot of interesting drama could be created from that.

So what do ya'll think?  I know, of course, why the bumped off a sibling, by the way, and I still fully support the decision.  I'm just sort of playing "What if" as it were.  So your ideas?

[TEWR]

I've brought this up before, and it would've indeed strengthened the Mage-Templar conflict had both siblings lived, along with the family aspect. From my viewpoint as a writer, anyway.

Actually, it seems that five months back I edited one of my old posts to not have the elements of my DAII fanfic in it. I was paranoid that someone might take that idea and run with it.

That fanfic has been put on hold temporarily, due to lack of time to really work on it between my part-time job, sleeping, housework, and having only one usable computer in my house.

But yes, they should've both lived.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 septembre 2012 - 08:06 .

[Knight of Dane]

It would also have enhanced the games main point of being "a more personal story"

In my first playthrough I didn't give a damn about Carver dieing but was saddened greatly when Bethany was taken away, even if she did leave.

If the game either gave us an prologue of being with the dieing sibling, like being in Ostagar with Carver as a soldier/rogue or being at home with Bethany as a mage, or if the game had let both siblings live and then one perished during the Deep Roads act you would at least care enough for it to add some wtfdrama.

[Lazy Jer]

Knight of Dane wrote...

It would also have enhanced the games main point of being "a more personal story"

In my first playthrough I didn't give a damn about Carver dieing but was saddened greatly when Bethany was taken away, even if she did leave.

If the game either gave us an prologue of being with the dieing sibling, like being in Ostagar with Carver as a soldier/rogue or being at home with Bethany as a mage, or if the game had let both siblings live and then one perished during the Deep Roads act you would at least care enough for it to add some wtfdrama.

That's an interesting point as well.  The programers did the best they could, of course, and they didn't do a bad job of letting you know about Beth/Carv as a character in the prologue, but I really wasn't as effected by Carver's death in DAII as I was with, for example, Mhairi from Awakenings.

[MichaelStuart]

If both Carver and Bethany were left at home, I don't think much would have changed.
Either Bethany joined the Circle, which would have disqualified Carver form joining the Templars, or Carver joined the Templars, and used his influence to stop Templars form hunting Bethany.
Afterwards, the remaining sibling would just follow Hawk around, and in they spare time enjoy being rich.

[dazman]

not carver he just moans all the time

[FaWa]

Carver would have had a meltdown

[Knight of Dane]

MichaelStuart wrote...

If both Carver and Bethany were left at home, I don't think much would have changed.
Either Bethany joined the Circle, which would have disqualified Carver form joining the Templars, or Carver joined the Templars, and used his influence to stop Templars form hunting Bethany.
Afterwards, the remaining sibling would just follow Hawk around, and in they spare time enjoy being rich.

I would have liked if you had these options in a scenario where they both live in the beginning.

One left at home, the other taken. One dies and one joins a faction.
The same but anders is brought along: one beomes a warden and one joins a faction.
Both are brought: One dies but the other lives and lives in the Hawke estate or perhaps something completely different.
Both are left: They both join a faction each.

This would have improved replayability greatly and also offered a moral choise to metagamers. Let a sibling die to keep a permanent companion or let both live and both leave.
It would also have been really interesting to see the final part of the game with a sibling on either side.

[Lazy Jer]

FaWa wrote...

Carver would have had a meltdown

Well from what little I know about him (I rarely play mages) he'd have a meltdown eventually no matter what he does.  The only reason he doesn't have a meltdown with the Templars is that they have a sign posted saying "No Meltdowns" and he's a stickler for rules.

[TEWR]

Knight of Dane wrote...

If the game either gave us an prologue of being with the dieing sibling, like being in Ostagar with Carver as a soldier/rogue or being at home with Bethany as a mage, or if the game had let both siblings live and then one perished during the Deep Roads act you would at least care enough for it to add some wtfdrama

I'm half-tempted to post my idea for how I think the prologue should've happened that I created many, many months ago.

[sylvanaerie]

I have often debated this same thing myself. I like the scenario of "did Carver turn in Bethany?" if both were left behind. I'd also like to have left one behind and taken one into the Deep Roads to make them a GW. Even if doing so you still lose them at the end of Act 1, I wouldn't mind that.

Oddly I felt more for Wesley's demise than my sibling's because 1) i've played the game so much with multiple classes and gotten to know both Carver and Bethany. 2) it happens so quickly you almost don't have much of a chance to think about it. Wesley has an entire dialogue where he begs his wife/Hawke to put an end to him. And I really feel for Aveline there, but I've only been able to do it on Hawke once. I feel it should be up to the two of them (a personal thing as it were).

Sadly, Bioware felt (for game balance or whatever reasons) one of the siblings must die 10 minutes into the game.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 11 septembre 2012 - 09:48 .

[Renmiri1]

I'd love to have both on Act 1 but the way it was on the game is fine too.

Bethany is a bit bland IMHO. Don't miss her. I wish Warden Carver shows up in a next DA game.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Fleet Command wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But yes, they should'veboth lived.

I think as a writer, you should realize that Dragon Age II's story is a tragedy. Tragedies would not become tragedy without death.

Killing off a character the player has only known for five minutes - someone that basically constitutes a redshirt - is hardly worth of being called a tragedic death.

[Garrus94]

Fleet Command wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But yes, they should'veboth lived.

I think as a writer, you should realize that Dragon Age II's story is a tragedy. Tragedies would not become tragedy without death.

To be honest when I first played the game and Bethany died I couldn't care less.  Conversly when I played my next play through I felt bad when Carver died.  Killing off someone so early ruins the impact.  The only one I found really sad so early in the game was the Human Noble Warden, as the start of that origin was focused on the charaters not the action.

[Knight of Dane]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

If the game either gave us an prologue of being with the dieing sibling, like being in Ostagar with Carver as a soldier/rogue or being at home with Bethany as a mage, or if the game had let both siblings live and then one perished during the Deep Roads act you would at least care enough for it to add some wtfdrama

I'm half-tempted to post my idea for how I think the prologue should've happened that I created many, many months ago.

Didn't you post it before? I'm quite sure I read it somewhere, even if I can't exactly remember it.
Feel free to pm it to me, I'd love to dicuss the topic personally. 

[TEWR]

Fleet Command wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But yes, they should'veboth lived.

I think as a writer, you should realize that Dragon Age II's story is a tragedy. Tragedies would not become tragedy without death.

I don't mean to say they shouldn't have died at all. I mean they should've lived to go to Kirkwall. They could die in the Deep Roads, or in the endgame -- well, Bethany anyway.

Killing off a character you've known for less then five minutes hardly constitutes sound writing as a tragic element in an RPG.

In fact, the reason why they were killed off had little to do with being tragic storytelling. Bioware's gone on record to say that they did it to "balance the gameplay", and that failed spectacularly because the gameplay was broken with or without the siblings.

The fact of the matter is that Carver and Bethany living would enhance the family aspect more then just one of them being with Hawke, which would simultaneously amplify the tragedy of their loss -- say Carver dies in the Deep Roads, only for Hawke to return home and find that while he was gone Bethany was caught by the Templars.

Double dose of tragedy, as Hawke's entire family has been torn apart by a cruel twist of fate. Even if she's still alive, they're no longer together.

Or as another poster said, the question of if Carver turned in Bethany. Or the possibility of both dying in the Deep Roads, utilizing the thing Legacy had where Varric always accompanies your party even if he wasn't in the main gorup.

I could go on and on about more things like this, or even about the Mage-Templar conflict being strengthened by it. But I won't. I've done that too often in the past.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 septembre 2012 - 01:32 .

[dragonflight288]

Or maybe if both go to the Deep Roads, Hawke is put into a position, similar to the ogre at the beginning. However, Hawke must make a choice on which sibling to save, and Hawke had to let one die, but if Hawke doesn't make a choice or spends too long thinking about it, they both die. The chosen one has survivor's guilt, Bethany lamenting the loss of Carver and how they couldn't do anything for him, Carver blaming Hawke for Bethany's death (and have it be more believable than blaming him/her for Bethany's death at the beginning of the game,) and Hawke has automatic dialogue where he expresses regret on not keeping a sibling home, or both siblings home, and feels incredibly guilty for the death of his/her sibling.

[lyriumaddict104]

I don't think Carver would have turned Bethany in if both had been left behind. He claimed not to have told the templars about my mage Hawke when he joined and that seemed to be true, even if Meredith and the templars learn Hawke is a mage later on in Act 2. And Carver took my mage Hawke's side at the end of Act 3 when he was a templar. He turned on Meredith for my sake. It would have been interesting nonetheless to see what would have happened with both siblings left behind if they had both survived. Even if we didn't know them well early in the game, I cared that Bethany was killed the first time.

[dragonflight288]

But would Hawke know that? We come back from the deep roads and see Carver in templar armor, throwing a hissy fit at being left behind conveniently around the same time that the templars are taking Bethany in. I can see Carver promising to look out for Bethany, but Hawke can easily see him turning her in.

[thats1evildude]

My belief is that, had Carver or Bethany not died, Hawke would never have settled in Kirkwall.

Let's say that Bethany indeeds knocks Carver on his ass or Carver pulls Bethany away before the ogre attacks. The ogre's next target is Leandra, who is killed.

Up until the point where Hawke comes to Kirkwall, the story proceeds much as it did had Carver or Bethany died. Flemeth saves Hawke's family, gives him/her an amulet and then sends the family on their way to Kirkwall. (The city is still a logical destination for many Fereldans fleeing the Blight, and they do have family there.)

It's here that the story takes a swerve. Leandra sent a message to Gamlen in advance of their arrival, but Gamlen hasn't even met his nephew(s) and niece(s) and they aren't even aware of his present circumstances, with his house in Lowtown. There's a good chance that he doesn't even come to the Gallows.

But even if he did, there's a good chance that Hawke would simply leave Kirkwall. Hawke, Carver and Bethany aren't that keen on the whole "year of indentured servitude" thing, but they sign on with Meeran or Athenril because they want to find a safe harbour for their mother in the city she grew up in. And going to Kirkwall was always a bit dodgy anyway, given the high number of templars there and the power they wield.

Maybe they bum around the Free Marches for a while and head back to Ferelden once the Blight ends, or maybe they just settle in the Marches permanently. They might even go back to Kirkwall once it's relaxed its stringent KEEP OUT THE GORRAM DOG LORDS policy, but the whole timeline would be different and Hawke wouldn't be swept up in the city's politics as s/he was before.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 septembre 2012 - 05:07 .

[TEWR]

Who's to say Leandra has to die in the prologue? The only person whose death -- among the people we see in the flight sequence -- I feel is completely necessary is Wesley.

Let's say Sibliing A saves Sibling B. Hawke then goes with Sibling A to save Leandra while Sibling A is going to rescue Sibling B. While Sibling A has saved Sibling B, Hawke has rescued Leandra. These two rescues happens at the same time. No one dies, though it was close.

Hawke then tells Sibling A/B to take Leandra and Wesley down the path they just came up and cleared while Aveline, the other Sibling, and Hawke distract and kill the Ogre and all of the Darkspawn, granting a temporary reprieve when Flemeth intervenes.

Wesley dies from the taint in his system so as to showcase the devastion the Blight disease can cause afterwards, and the Hawke family rides to Kirkwall.

Then, in Act 1's ending quest, the tragic element comes to play -- the fate of Carver and Bethany.

All along the course of Act 1, we get to know the entire family, see the interactions between them -- both good and bad -- and grow to care about our family more and more.

And afterwards, if the siblings are still alive and depending on where they are, we can keep in touch. If they're alive and in the Circle/Templars, we can visit them a few times. If they're with the Wardens, we receive 3 or so letters from them and write our own, along with the cameos that happen.

If they're dead, we could visit their graves a few times.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 septembre 2012 - 05:21 .

[thats1evildude]

The ogre would have killed Leandra if Carver or Bethany hadn't gotten in the way. As this theoretical scenario dictates that both siblings must survive, then neither of them can be there to take the ogre-shaped bullet for her. Leandra herself admits the ogre would have killed her if it weren't for Bethany/Carver.

Besides, ogres have to meet a quota of killing one major character per Dragon Age game. Those are the rules. 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Let's say Sibliing A saves Sibling B. Hawke then goes with Sibling A to save Leandra.

At which point, the ogre kills Hawke. Then the story REALLY gets screwy.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 12 septembre 2012 - 05:19 .

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

The ogre would have killed Leandra if Carver or Bethany hadn't gotten in the way. As this theoretical scenario dictates that both siblings must survive, then neither of them can be there to take the ogre-shaped bullet.

No one has to take the Ogre shaped bullet, though. The theoretical scenario is that the entire Hawke family makes it to Kirkwall.

Besides, ogres have to meet a quota of killing one major character per Dragon Age game. Those are the rules. 

Screw the rules, I have money!

At which point, the ogre kills Hawke. Then the story REALLY gets screwy.

Actually, not so. I said that Hawke goes with Sibling A when the latter rescues Sibling B. Sibling A would rescue Sibling B, while Hawke would rescue Leandra.

This would happen at the same time, so that the Ogre misses.

Then he acts befuddled, where he's then scolded by the party and walks away in shame.