Aller au contenu

Photo

Is Synthesis Paragon or Renegade for you??


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
188 réponses à ce sujet

#176
o Ventus

o Ventus
  • Members
  • 17 253 messages

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...


Cripes. I already responded to that. This statement is fallacious: retroactive-determinism.

Repeating falsehood doesn't make it true.
 


I don't think you know what that phrase means.



Oops. Labeled it incorrectly.

It should be.... retrospective determinism.


You're still wrong.



Nope. You attributed something happening to singular (and false) reasoning. That's the way it works.


Retrospective determinism is described as "because something happened, it was therefore bound to happen".

IE: Because Caesar became Emperor, he was bound to be assassinated.

#177
teh DRUMPf!!

teh DRUMPf!!
  • Members
  • 9 142 messages

o Ventus wrote...

Retrospective determinism is described as "because something happened, it was therefore bound to happen".

IE: Because Caesar became Emperor, he was bound to be assassinated.


Yes yes I'm aware of the wikipedia definition of it. There's more to it, you recognize that if you've seen enough of it.

Your statement would be no different if you were to say: Because you posted something unintelligent, it was bound to be mised.

#178
o Ventus

o Ventus
  • Members
  • 17 253 messages

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Retrospective determinism is described as "because something happened, it was therefore bound to happen".

IE: Because Caesar became Emperor, he was bound to be assassinated.


Yes yes I'm aware of the wikipedia definition of it. There's more to it, you recognize that if you've seen enough of it.

Your statement would be no different if you were to say: Because you posted something unintelligent, it was bound to be mised.


I guess it's a good thing I didn't say that, then.

#179
teh DRUMPf!!

teh DRUMPf!!
  • Members
  • 9 142 messages

o Ventus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Retrospective determinism is described as "because something happened, it was therefore bound to happen".

IE: Because Caesar became Emperor, he was bound to be assassinated.


Yes yes I'm aware of the wikipedia definition of it. There's more to it, you recognize that if you've seen enough of it.

Your statement would be no different if you were to say: Because you posted something unintelligent, it was bound to be mised.


I guess it's a good thing I didn't say that, then.



You implied that the post was not responded to - why? - because it wasn't intelligent. And, since it was unintelligent, it was bound to be missed like it was and needing me to call attention to it.

So, yes, you basically did.

#180
darthnick427

darthnick427
  • Members
  • 3 785 messages
Neither. It's stupidity

#181
Unschuld

Unschuld
  • Members
  • 3 468 messages

wizardryforever wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Control- Renegade; You "sacrifice" yourself to become the hive mind of an intergalactic big-brother police force to maintain galactic order through force and fear.

Synthesis- Renegade; You sacrifice yourself to impose non-consensual change on the most basic level upon the entire galaxy, in the name of "peace".

Destroy- "Renegade", but only if you believe synthetics are alive and have feelings. Who the heck else besides Shepard is gonna know that he/she was responsible for destroying all synthetics? It was just part of the crucible's function anyway. The reapers are dead, so I don't think there's going to be much complaining regardless.

All the endings seem renegade in some fashion except refuse, where Shepard chooses to almighty imma-gonna-stick-to-ma-morals instead of making some sort of sacrifice where the ends justify the means. Color coding doesn't mean crap.



Who is gonna know that there were other options at all?  No one (not even the Crucible engineers) can say exactly what the function is (since it doesn't work without the Catalyst).  So if you were to choose Synthesis, no one would ever know that there were other options.  This applies to all endings; people assume that Shepard used the Crucible or that it wasn't possible.  No one believes that Shepard would deliberately lose the war and doom the galaxy because he didn't want to get his hands dirty, so Refuse is the only one where the beliefs of the galaxy don't match with Shepard's actions.


Any ending with live reapers is likely a misalignment of what the galaxy wants. That's not what Paragon/Renegade is, anyway. Paragon is upholding your moral code at all costs, Renegade is getting things done the most direct way possible, with the ends justifying the means. Either method can be used for great good or great evil depending on the circumstances.

The only way I can see refuse as "evil" is if Shepard chooses refuse KNOWING that there's no possible way  to win. Given the speech directed at the hivemind, I don't think Shepard is knowingly sacrificing the galaxy just to keep his hands clean. How many times have we heard a similar speech given by the hero towards the end of a movie/tv show/book, then still managing to triumph despite odds that were presented by the villain as insurmountable? If anything when you compare this to most stories, the end result is rather anticlimactic. Refuse is Paragon either way, but whether it's good or evil would really depend on the knowledge Shepard has (explicit knowledge that he does not have, despite us knowing as players that it's essentially a "game over").

#182
o Ventus

o Ventus
  • Members
  • 17 253 messages

HYR 2.0 wrote...

You implied that the post was not responded to - why? - because it wasn't intelligent. And, since it was unintelligent, it was bound to be missed like it was and needing me to call attention to it.

So, yes, you basically did.


I really didn't. I literally meant that if you have to insist to others that your posts are intelligent, then they probably aren't. I find that most people who do that are in fact unintelligent. I made no mention at all about a post being ignored.

Either that or you have an insufferable superiority complex.

#183
teh DRUMPf!!

teh DRUMPf!!
  • Members
  • 9 142 messages

o Ventus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

You implied that the post was not responded to - why? - because it wasn't intelligent. And, since it was unintelligent, it was bound to be missed like it was and needing me to call attention to it.

So, yes, you basically did.


I really didn't. I literally meant that if you have to insist to others that your posts are intelligent, then they probably aren't. I find that most people who do that are in fact unintelligent. I made no mention at all about a post being ignored.

Either that or you have an insufferable superiority complex.



That's where your statement fails. My post was not addressed previously because it was missed, not because it wasn't intelligent. So, knowingly or not, you invoked the fallacy as to why it was missed (... as it was bound to be, by your logic): because it wasn't intelligent enough.

Lesson: think before making wisearse statements. :police:

#184
o Ventus

o Ventus
  • Members
  • 17 253 messages

HYR 2.0 wrote...


That's where your statement fails. My post was not addressed previously because it was missed, not because it wasn't intelligent. So, knowingly or not, you invoked the fallacy as to why it was missed (... as it was bound to be, by your logic): because it wasn't intelligent enough.

Lesson: think before making wisearse statements. :police:


I didn't make any mention, either direct or indirect, about your post being acknowledged or ignored.

#185
atheelogos

atheelogos
  • Members
  • 4 554 messages

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Synthesis, Control and Destroy are all neither paragon nor renegade. Though control does have two variations for paragon and renegade player, the actual act of choosing control cannot be reasoned by being paragon or renegade. All endings have their ups and downs therefore they are all grey.

This about sums it up

#186
Jvolikas

Jvolikas
  • Members
  • 378 messages
It's neither...

#187
Rommel49

Rommel49
  • Members
  • 166 messages

HYR 2.0 wrote...

There is no implied/explicit consent for genocide. Otherwise, the krogan wouldn't have cared for a cure. And Legion would not have tried to kill you for recruiting the quarians instead of his people.

Genocide is the fate that everyone is fighting to save themselves from.

There is also no consent involved for destroying our own technology and synthetics. There are synthetics and people not involved in the war that will be affected by that. Also, that there may even be people who would prefer something other than Destroy if they knew what the choices at hand were.

Destroying the Reapers was the only known goal, as people assumed it was what the Crucible would do. So, they were all basically riding on the Crucible. In some instances, Control can be its only function. That's the way it goes. They've basically consented to it saving their asses, however the hell it does so.

Also, Shepard has no orders from Hackett apart from simply winning the war. Hackett saying something =/= it's an order.

He tells Shepard to recruit the quarians, but he can choose the geth instead and Hackett really doesn't care (though he clearly trusts them less). Genophage arc: he defers to Shepard's judgement on the cost of the salarian support being too high. If Shepard sabotages the cure, he prefers not to know what Shepard did to get both sides' support.


The Geth themselves actually set the tone, they gave implied consent for genocide when they willingly allied with the Reapers. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

There's a difference between dying to fulfill the stated objective and for no particularly good reason, people do the former all the time in combat. It's about how worthy the cause is (or seems); for example, look at how WWII is viewed compared to say, Vietnam, or Iraq - most Americans tend to believe WWII was a war worth fighting, Vietnam and Iraq... Not so much. The dialogue with Lt. Kurin serves as a good example as well; she's unwilling to have her people die for a "field of rubble" so the commander can reach the temple on Thessia, but when told the relic inside that temple is the only chance to complete a war-winning Prothean superweapon? She has her people hold their ground. The only difference here is the scale of the sacrifice needed to achieve the objective.

It's also untrue that Hackett doesn't give orders, when he shoots down the idea of controlling the Reapers; "Dead Reapers is how we win this", given the Commander's other orders (e.g. interdict enemy forces) killing the Reapers is at a minimum what anybody in the military would consider an implied order, if not a direct one (and throughout the series, following the orders of one's superiors is typically considered a Paragon act in and of itself).

When it comes to forging alliances, etc. his orders specifically allow him to do so "as he sees fit" in the e-mail from Hackett (along with the direction to interdict enemy forces); and even then the good Commander admits to cutting corners, as Joker says "well, they can always court-martial us after we save the galaxy".

And the sad fact is, when in a big enough war (especially one involving an actual existential threat), everyone's going to be affected anyway. Whether it be rationing among the civilian populace, the draft, destruction of infrastructure, etc.

And if they accepted the risk of the Crucible's true outcome being a complete unknown, then none of the three outcomes are an issue.


They didn't accept it as a complete unknown; look at the example Hackett uses - the first atomic bombs and the fears they could ignite the atmosphere. It was considered a possibility the Crucible would blow everybody up; this was the hope behind finding the Catalyst - to direct the Crucible's power against the Reapers alone.

That the only known function of the Crucible was thought to be destroy is irrelevant; exterminating the Reapers was the goal the galaxy united to achieve, and the possibility of the Crucible potentially causing major collateral damage was seen as a distinct possibility right off the bat. In general, when one signs up to join a war, they kinda forfeit the right to complain that the decision may result in death.

#188
SpamBot2000

SpamBot2000
  • Members
  • 4 463 messages
Reapers - Paragon or Renegade for you?

Synthesis being the Reaper objective.

#189
Gervaise

Gervaise
  • Members
  • 4 531 messages
Imagine the voice over to the EC Epilogue to Synthesis in the voice of Harbinger instead of EDI and focus on the glowing green eyes of every inhabitant of the galaxy. The decision is neither Paragon or Renegade, it is just doing what the Reapers/Catalyst wanted. (Note: A group of Protheans synthesised and became the Collectors).