185 réponses à ce sujet

[Maximus741000]

@ Jaldaen, thanks for the positive feedback, its certainly something to work from. I've thought over the possible plot and wondered if perhaps, the element of treachery is incorporated into the story. What if a minion of Loghain betrays your commanding officer, and your comrades?



If you look into the origins stories most of them involve an element of treachery, deceit, or severe obscenity. Arl Howe betrays your family and robs you of your title in the Human Noble origin, Behrat decides to do away with you when you fail the job, your mage-friend Jowan lies about the fact that he IS a blood mage, and Bhelen murders Trian and frams you for fratricide in the Dwarf Noble story. So what if something similar could be seen here. I was wondering if your first nemesis for the origin was the fiercely-loyal-to-Loghain Ser Cauthrien.



You first meet her in Gwaren, recruiting men on Loghain's behalf. At first she seems reasonable enough, and assigns you to your commanding officer, a man called Arl Travus. The next day, Travus leads you and the other men south to Ostagar. That's when the darkspawn attack. Travus is wounded but makes it out alive, and you soon not only encounter darkspawn but Cautrien's minions too. You get one of them to talk and learn that the darkspawn attack was in fact an assasination attempt on Arl Travus who is loyal to king Cailan. Sometime before or after your encounter with the darkspawn at the watchtower, you find Cauthrien herself and fight her. She's only an elite rank, but she will be tough. Obviously she escapes to join Loghain but does not reveal his name, and she's the one who kills your friend and wounds your brother, beleiving your to be too dangerous. This is picked up when you meet King Cailan, you can relate what you saw to him. He's obviously shocked at your accusations and promises to question Cauthrien about it, who's in the camp but beyond your reach.

[Jaldaen]

ladydesire,



Thanks for your vote of confidence. I'm looking forward to seeing how this project turns out, too.

[Jaldaen]

Hammer Fang,



Thanks for the offer. I'd have to see your mod to know if it would work for one of these option, but one possibility would be for me to use the base (unscripted) Daggersfall area as a starting point for creating Gwaren (if I decide to go that route). I'm not a level designer, so that could be of great use for saving development time.



Thanks,

Joseph

[Jaldaen]

Maximus741000,



I'll have to think about adding a betrayal angle. It might not be necessary as long as the other elements of the story work well together. As for your scenario... I'm not certain the darkspawn and Loghain are connected in such a way as to be able to "hire" them for an assassination. If Ser Cautrien (or Loghain) wanted a particular person dead, then it'd be better to have mercenaries (or assassins) attack. Still, I'll keep this in the back of my mind as I start making story decisions.

[Maximus741000]

I guess you're right about the fact that Loghain and or Cauthrien would not use the darkspawn as assasins and would have used their own. Loghain and the darkspawn certainly weren't connected, indeed the idea was that Loghain was desperate to remove his enemies, and so was prepared to take desperate measures to ensure they were removed in inconspicuous ways, and that he could have blamed the Arl's death on a darkspawn incursion, either by capturing them or diverting them from the rest of the horde. He certainly wouldn't have "hired" them.

Nevertheless, I wanted to use Cauthrien as the Commoner PC's personal enemy in a manner similar to what Arl Howe was to the Noble PC. Because there's an underlying element in each origin which ties it to the story, and links to the player character, either it's revenge, family, your home, potential allies or other reasons. Ser Cauthrien was a possible starting point, and since you could not request your village friends in Gwaren to fight the blight, the characters in the origins would have to be the prevailing element.

But ultimately it's your decision in the end . I'm just really interested in this idea.

edit: you can just call me "Maximus".

Modifié par Maximus741000, 29 décembre 2009 - 07:03 .

[Malacola]

If you go with the denerim city guard angle, it would be interesting to tie it in with the city elf origin, maybe build a set piece around the purge of the alienage. That could present some tough moral choices and a fitting climax for the origin story, and anyway that kind of intertextuality is fun to mess about with.



Although to my mind, a city guard isn't really enough of a "commoner" to fit the sort of rags to riches archetype. To get the full effect you'd need to start with someone without any sort of authority or control, someone just scraping to get by, like a peasant or one of the dregs of Denerim. Coming up with a compelling reason why someone like that would be recruited by the wardens would be an interesting challenge.

[Jaldaen]

Maximus,



Thanks for clarifying. I definitely could see Loghain or one of his henchmen blaming an arl's death on a "darkspawn" attack and leaving dead darkspawn and darkspawn weapons at the scene.

[Jaldaen]

malacola,



Thanks for the ideas... as for the guard not being "commoner" enough... you're right in the sense that it isn't a true zero-to-hero set up, but I think it offers a lot of possibilities for building up a compelling storyline. However, there is something to be said for a true "commoner" background and that is why some of the other options are up there. By the way... which options from those listed above would you like to see made into an origin? Anything else you'd like to see included?

[Jaldaen]

Okay, so I just cut option 7, too. I did this because option 6 would be a lot easier to implement. SO I'm down to 5 options (1, 4, 5, 6, and 8).

[Malacola]

I'm a fan of the Denerim guard plot, for aformentioned reasons, as well as the lothering farmer who's wife and child are killed. I like the "married to an apostate" angle, but I think there's a problem having Templars be the antagonists.



For starters, they're some of the tougher fights in the game, and having you roll over them as a newb might be setting yourself up for s bit of incongruity later on. Furthermore, it's sort of setting players against one of the factions you can ally with right from the start. I'd suggest leaving the Templars, and thus perhaps the entire apostate plot point, out of it, and make their deaths the work of some sort of land baron or local sherriff trying to force people off their farms to increase his own means. This sets up some good hardscrabble commoner tropes right off the bat, and also allows you to craft a kind of "sword of vengeance" origin story that people find fairly satisfying. Have the land baron make good his escape right before the players get to him and take refuge with his good friend Arl Howe in Denerim, and the players clapped in irons for the amount of killing they did to get to him. Duncan comes along and finds you, like you'll find Sten later on, and decides you'd be of more use alive then dead and conscripts you, etc...



Anyway, that'd be my back of the envelope outline for it. Good luck!

[LDiCesare]

Having mages in one's family could lead to lots of origins for a commoner and you could revert the templar antagonism:

For instance you find out your son/younger sister/relative is talented and you must escort him/her to the nearest chantry for the templars to take care of. But the village near your farm has been/is attacked by darkspawns. Your relative may end up killed by darkspawns and your farm's probably destroyed too but the local templars might help you. And you might meet Duncan because of the darkspawn attack.

[Jaldaen]

Malacola and LDiCesare,



You make some excellent points about the problem with involving the templars as antagonists. If I do involve a templar, then I might only have a single one sent after you to begin with. However, I do like the idea of you discovering your child is a mage and having to make a decision about whether you turn him/her over to the Chantry or try to hide them (or fight the Templar sent to retrieve the child). Not certain if that would be worth the extra work involved with creating scenarios for both outcomes. I'll have to think about this some more.



I also like your ideas for alternatives for the Templar angle and have added them to my notes.



Thanks,

Joseph

[Wizard of thay]

Just some random thoughts.

re the betrayal...

you said:

Thanks for clarifying. I definitely could see Loghain or one of his henchmen blaming an arl's death on a "darkspawn" attack and leaving dead darkspawn and darkspawn weapons at the scene.

thoughs.
I have always liked the duality of the game. having a evil act done and then finding out it was justified in some way. this could also apply to this.
such as
"how would the population react if they knew there was betrayal from within...chaos, hatred, paranoid, have you ever won a war with your allies looking at each other with distrust? far better to use this as a opportunity to unit the people against a common enemy...the darkspawn."

thus attempting to justify this betrayal....

Lothering farmer and apostate child.
its the time of hard decisions. cutting it down to the one option.
the apostate farmer child would fit in very nicely with an apostate origin.
(after give child away/hide it and it is killed your own magical powers are revealed)
but this is outside the remit of the human commoner origin.
I would suggest putting these ideas to one side and perhaps coming back to them later if you become bored with this origin or decide to do a second project.

with regards the templars as enemies
this is not as big an issue as you think. if it fits with the story then there are a number of things that can be done to
allow this to happen.

dialogue options to talk way past.
mini quests
stealth sections if a rogue.

not an issue. if it is in the finalised story, then interesting scenarios can be created.
if you do choose to go with templars as antagonists then suggest gwaren as town.
why
town layout can be created for these scenarios to fit.

if not I would suggest losing gwaren as an option as creating a town/village is a difficult proposition.

Modifié par Wizard of thay, 01 janvier 2010 - 11:14 .

[Jaldaen]

Wizard of Thay,



Funny you should mention the templar option as being a better apostate origin, then a commoner origin. I was thinking about that recently, too, although I wonder if a human commoner origin might work for all the classes (warrior, rogue, and mage). As for Gwaren, it might be too much work for my first modding experience, so I'm leaning towards areas that have been set up already so I don't have to reinvent the wheel.



One alternative I've considered is to have the Human Commoner origin set up where you are part of the first wave of refugees to make you way toward Lothering and have the story beginning with your caravan coming under attack by darkspawns (I could use one of the road areas). After beating back the attack, you'd arrive at Lothering and somehow end up in trouble with the local authorities, join up with Cailin's army marching toward Ostagar, and eventually get recruited by Duncan.



Alternatively, I could weave the apostate child into this option and have the boy/girl "reveal" their talents during the caravan attack. Then, when you arrived at Lothering, Templars would come for the child (tipped off by someone). You can either fight them or give the child over willingly... your spouse might oppose turning over the child and another fight might ensue that eventually leads to you being overwhelmed and cast into irons and Duncan conscripting you. Of course like you said, that kind of origin might be better for an apostate mage, rather than a human commoner... so perhaps that will have to be placed on the back burner for another project once this one's done.



Thanks. Talking these things out (even if only virtually) is helping me to work out possible storylines and figure out the problem areas/opportunities each one offers.



Happy New Year!

Joseph

[Lotion Soronarr]

You know, a templar-in-training origin might be fun too...The Circle Tower is already there...Maybe you have to be present during a Harrowing, deal with some problems in the tower...or go with another templar to hunt an apostate (out of the tower)

[Jaldaen]

Lotion Soronnar,



Interesting idea... I would never have thought of a templar human commoner origin, but it could work considering the background material on the Templars.



Thanks,

Joseph

[-Conspirator]

Just a thought of mine for another start.



Lothering: You and your family live in an isolated farmhouse near Lothering. One day you find a wounded qunari and take him to your house. You care for him until he kills your entire family with his bare hands. You were out in the woods collecting firewood, when you return you find your family slaughtered and swear revenge. You find out that the qunari is already imprisoned by the chantry of Lothering. So you head through the woods in that direction until you encounter darkspawn. You have no idea of what they are or what they're doing but you fight your way through and finally meet Duncan in the wood.



There is a lot of involvement with Sten and this would require quite a few new dialogue options, but I like the idea of a story that isn't completely new. Also you would need to create an entirely new area.



It would be something like this:



1.) You are at home, your mother wants you to collect firewood. You may start with a bow.



2.) You are collecting the firewood and you are encountering wolves and some bears in the forest. When you completed this task you return home.



3.) At home you find the corpses of your family and a note of the templars who imprisoned Sten about what he did.



4.) Back in the woods you encounter darkspawn and cut your way through heading towards Lothering. Until you find Duncan (and maybe a darkspawn horde you couldn't defeat on your own).





What do you think? I'm no good modder and I wouldn't have the time to deal with the toolset, but I could at least write some of the dialogues. I'd appreciate consideration.

[-Conspirator]

PS: Maybe you find a companion on your way. For example: A good friend of yours saw the massacre and accompanies you through the woods to take revenge.

[Tatooine92]

Ooh, sounds good! I'm not available for helping with it, but I offer my enthusiastic support for it. After May/June, I could possibly be available to test it, though I can't say anything definite.

[Maximus741000]

I agree, it does sound good, but it would mean calling back Mark Hildreth (the actor who voiced Sten), and it would mean he would have a few moments of dialogue for these scenes for dialogue concerning his murder's of the people and how he would realistically react to see you again.

But it's still a very good idea.

[-Conspirator]

Yes the point with the voice acting would be a drawback. But maybe we can use existing answers of him for the new dialogues? Things like "No" for example shouldn't be hard to implement. It's worth a try I think.



Thanks for the feedback so far.

[q0rra]

I must say I like the first option the most (commoner guard in Denerim.) since it gives you some sort of background with weapons and fighting. Being a simple farmer who embarks on a journey to save the world is not quite as appealing to me.

[-Conspirator]

Fair enough, but Farmers these days, especially when they were on their own surely knew how to hunt or use at least a knife in order to defend themselves. Also, saving the world is a bit exaggerated, don't you think?

[Maximus741000]

@q0rra, maybe so, but having a farmer/peasant background as an origin is not what should make the context appealing or not, it's the story that ties with it that does. Besides wardens except commoners who have the skill and ability to fight. it's like saying someone like us can't become a hero if we tried

[q0rra]

-Conspirator wrote...

Fair enough, but Farmers these days, especially when they were on their own surely knew how to hunt or use at least a knife in order to defend themselves.

Yes, that may be right but that was usually against animals and the like, not 200 feet tall dragons!

-Conspirator wrote...

Also, saving the world is a bit exaggerated, don't you think?

Well, mayhaps. Saving an enitre nation then, if it please you.

I guess it could work, after all. But I still like the Denerim guard idea better.

Maximus741000 wrote...

it's like saying someone like us can't become a hero if we tried

Exactly. I don't think we could pick up sword and bow to venture out in the world and killing trained knights, y'know. At least, I couldn't. That's where I'm coming from, at least.

Modifié par q0rra, 02 janvier 2010 - 10:45 .