185 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaldecir]

First of all, congratulations to Jaldaen for coming up with a great story. Second of all, I agree with what Joff mentioned pretty much on everything (sister's early appearance, killing partner in self-defense, and also switching father part).



Now what I'd like to add is to make the partner as a really good guy who actually would be worthy of being a Grey Warden candidate, though the father might still be a bit of wanting the glory of having a Grey Warden son. Maybe make the partner even being embarrassed by the father's constant showing off about the son. The reason why I'd suggest to make the partner as an actual good guy is because in other origins, being a "killer" is basically doing the right thing (borrowing the term from Songlian). City Elf killed Vaughan because Vaughan is a total jerk. Dwarf Commoner killed the boss because boss is a jerk. But if this Human Commoner origin killed the partner while the partner is actually someone who is good, it would create more emotion to the player as they don't really want to kill this good guy partner you have that would've been a Grey Warden candidate. Any thought about this?



Also another question, since you have the blood mage leaving at the end of the origin, is there any plan to have some sort of personal quest for mid-game involving this blood mage? One of the things that annoy me from the game is that there's no personal quest for the Warden themselves in the game. So yeah, I'd really like to see the conclusion of the blood mage as mid-game personal quest or something like that if possible.



Keep up the good work, Jaldaen.

[mad_cat_prime]

I agree with you Jaldecir, I felt that as a Human Noble, there should have been a quest to find your brother. You were told not to go looking for him as he would likely be dead, but surprise surprise, he's alive at the end.

[Jaldaen]

Jaldecir and Mad_Cat,

Thanks for your comments... I'm rewriting the storyline with your partner's father as the sergeant and your partner as a "good guy." It works up until I get to the ending... but I'm having trouble figuring out why the blood mage would let you survive and how best to set up you killing your partner.

In the original version, you survive because the blood mage wants your father to see you as a murder and then have to hang you. However, when I flip the roles I'm drawing a blank on why the blood mage would want you to live. She is obivously too powerful for you to take on yourself.

One option was to take her out of the equation at the end and simply have the templar turn on you and stab your partner. Then you'd have to take down the templar. By the time you do this, the city guard would arrive and find you in the middle of a pile of bodies. However, this ending doesn't give you any immediate context for why this has happened. I could build in clues over the course of the story, but I think the origin itself would lose something without some context.

Another option would be that she wants you to kill your partner in front of witnesses... but then we get into the need for you and your partner to read blood notes and then do things you don't want to do... which gets us back into the "railroading" problem of the original storyline.

Perhaps there is some other way to change the storyline that will help everything make sense in the end. I'll keep mulling it over. Perhaps I should switch to the Blight Refugee storyline for a day or so and hammer that out and let this one simmer for a while longer.

Modifié par Jaldaen, 19 janvier 2010 - 07:03 .

[_- Songlian -]

Hmmm, what if she wouldn't want you to survive? You could have your partner read the letter and turn upon you, while she watched the fight simply for her amusement, with the intention of killing the survivor herself. But during the battle - or after, depending how you see fit - you could hear voices from outside, sounding as if some men are at the door. That would be the father of your partner, with his guards. They knock the door down and all that jazz, while the blood mage is forced to flee in order to save herself - they would be too many even for her. You'd be left to explain everything to an enraged father, without any proof, which is where Duncan would come in and conscript you into the Grey Wardens. This could come in handy with Jaldecir's comment about a personal quest later on, with you possibly seeking revenge and confronting her at some point in the game.

I don't know if everything fits together, because you've made some changes from the original story in the meantime, but hopefully some of it will be of use. Or not.

Modifié par - Songlian -, 19 janvier 2010 - 08:02 .

[mad_cat_prime]

Let me repaint the scene...



You and your friend (the son of your Boss) with the Templar have tracked down to the son of the Noble who wanted his father killed to assume the role for himself. You fight the guards until you get to the son himself. After a fight, he is on his knees, begging for his life. As you talk to him, he tells you how he hired an assassin, and as you are ready to turn him in, the Templar takes his sword and kills him.



When you begin to question the Templar for his actions, he tells that he had orders to do so. When you question further, the elven woman steps into the scene and states that she was the one who gave the order. If the Noble son betrayed her, the Templar would kill him. She holds you at knife point, and orders your friend to read the note or she will have you killed. She then reveals this was an elaborate plot to kill the sister of your friend, and lure your friend, so he would be accused of murder, and the father would be shamed, likely losing his position. You just happened to be an innocent bystander in all of this.



She wants you to be killed as she wants no witnesses, because your friend will wait to be arrested and admit to the killing (just like Sten did). But first he will kill you after the assassin and Templar leave together. After she leaves, you kill your friend in self defense, something the assassin did not account for. While initially you were to be charged for the murders of the noble son and your friend, Duncan intervenes. But the Assassin learns of this and feels threaten of you, being the one who saw her face, and will later try to kill you again.

[Jaldecir]

I think mad_cat's idea works, but I also have my own idea to share here as an alternative. A comment on mad_cat's idea is that the part about son of noble who wanted to kill the father to assume the role for himself is supposed to be a fake story created by the templar to get your attention and trust to let him help you. It's not supposed to be real because the truth is Howe hired the blood mage to kill both the noble and the son. If it's changed though, mad_cat's idea has no problem.

Onto my own idea, using Jaldaen's storyboard being modified here and there by me. So pardon if it's a long read with some parts untouched, but I just want to present it fully like Jaldaen did to show continuation and whatnot.

Your commanding officer (and your partner's father) asks you and your partner (a close friend) to patrol the Market District. While patrolling the area, you run into a couple different situations (thugs in one of the back alleys trying to shake down a merchant or noble; a noble who is mistreating their elven servant; the dead body; or something else appropriate for a guard to run into). In one of those situations, your sister will be there to be introduced to the player (maybe to praise you if you side with the elven servant, and to scold you if you support the noble who mistreated the elven servant). After you’ve triggered these side quests, you have to return to your commanding officer to report for the day. When you made your report back, the commanding officer was seen standing with Duncan who mentioned that he was in Denerim to seek for more recruits. The commanding officer would suggest his son (your partner), and your partner would be embarrassed by all the praise that his father said in front of Duncan. Duncan, being the smart man that he is, noticed that both you and your partner have the potential to be candidates. Your commanding officer is a bit annoyed that you take half of the spotlight from his son, and started to feel a little bit of resentment toward you. Then someone (civillian or a junior soldier maybe?) arrived at the scene to inform that there had been trouble at Gnawed Noble Tavern. The two of you were sent there by the commanding officer to see what happened there.

When you arrive at the Gnawed Noble to investigate, you discover two bodies (of your sister and her fiance, a nobleman) in the back room along with a suicide note written in blood. The note claims the nobleman was carrying on an affair with another woman, so your sister killed him, and then took her own life in suicide. You and your companion know your sister wouldn’t do such a thing, but the evidence is clear. When you report your findings to the commanding officer, he didn't show sympathy, and instead sent the two of you back to find the truth, hoping that his son would take the center stage and impress Duncan by solving the case.

After you leave your commanding officer, a templar comes up to you claiming to know what happened to your sister. He has been following a blood mage assassin for the last year. This mage has discovered a means to control his victims through the use of blood magic infused notes. Whoever opens one of these notes firmly believes everything written within it. The templar claims he was a target of one such note and it was only by the Maker’s grace that he was able to resist it. The templar has been following this assassin’s trail ever since and has tracked her down to the estate of the nobleman who just murdered your sister. The templar thinks the eldest son may have hired the assassin to get rid of his father so he could become the new Bann or perhaps the assassin is plotting something else. No matter what her plot is, the templar doesn’t dare involve the local Chantry because he fears one or more of the people there may be under the influence of the assassin and would warn her of a possible raid (he’s been betrayed once before).

The templar says if you can help him get close enough to the assassin, he can handle the rest. Since you are city guards and have the authority to investigate crimes, you will have an easier time accessing the house in question. He asks you get him a guard’s uniform (so he can accompany you) and once you do this he will follow you to the assassin’s hideout.

When you arrive at the estate, the house guards let you in, but once you are inside, the son’s lieutenant orders them to attack you. After you win the battle, the templar says that you must hurry because the assassin might get away along with the only chance you have to clear your sister’s name. You have to fight your way to the son’s bedroom where you find him and his bodyguards. Once you’ve dispatched them and as the life blood pours out of his body, the son will ask you, “What has happened?” (or something similar) as if waking from a dream.

An elven woman steps into the room. It’s the assassin! She holds up her hand and you become paralyzed. She tells the templar to “kill the spare” (or something like that). “Yes, my love,” says the templar, who then kills the noble's son.

If you ask her why she has done this, she tells you that your commanding officer was once a house guard for a Bann before he became a city guard. One day, she watched him and the Bann take her mother away. Her mother was raped by the Bann and then killed herself when she discovered she was pregnant. So when she was hired (by Arl Howe) to get rid of the Bann and his eldest son, she decided to kill two birds with one stone. She would fulfill her contract and take her vengeance on your commanding officer at the same time.

After that explanation, your partner then ask her why she doesn’t just kill his father (your commanding officer), she says there is more pain in surviving your loved ones than in death.

If you ask her what she plans to do with you and your partner, she says your partner is going to read the note on the table and do what it tells him. Your partner then reads the note.

The note on the table says that after your partner finishes reading the note and then burning it, he will try to kill you, and then continue to stab you and the noble's son's corpse until the town guard arrives. He is not to speak or write of anything regarding what happened after he left his father earlier tonight. Once he finishes reading the note, he burns it with the candle on the table and begin his grim task of killing you.

He will attack you, and you will pretend to be losing because you don't really want to kill your partner who is a close friend of yours. The blood mage and the templar would then be satisfied that your partner lives up to his "reputation" (from his father's constant bragging that most townfolks know about it) as being the "best" soldier in Denerim and that he would have no problem in killing you. The blood mage and the templar would then leave the estate, and the templar would alert the other guards to enter the house (which is why the note says to keep on stabbing until other guards arrive).

However, as the blood mage and templar left the estate, the effect of the blood magic is weakening. Your partner is genuinely a good friend with strong will, even under control of blood magic, he was half-aware that he was attacking his own friend though he had no control over what his body was doing. The moment that the blood magic weakens, he stopped himself from attacking you and begged you to kill him because it was the only way to end this.

The commotion was heard outside as your commanding officer along with Duncan and the other guards entered the estate. Your partner continued to beg you to kill him while he was still able to resist the blood magic's control. He insisted that he doesn't want to shame his father by seeing the son as a killer. You understood him very well as your partner really loves his father, and as the door opened, you stabbed your partner to grant his wish, killing him just right before his father and the rest entered the room.

You were caught red-handed stabbing your partner by your commanding officer. He ran to his son's body, and then took out his sword to execute you himself right there and then. Duncan would stop him, and told him to let you explain yourself. However, you chose to stay quiet, refusing to answer as that would taint your partner's name. You chose to take the blame instead.Your commanding officer would insist that you killed his son to steal the spot as Grey Warden candidate. Duncan noticed that you aren't someone who would just kill your partner for such petty reason, but would recruit you anyway, further fueling your commanding officer's anger. He would then say something along the line of "You two will pay for this. Mark my word, Grey Warden!" and then you would go to Ostagar with Duncan.

Ideas for mid-game personal quest (if planned too):
1. Accidentally finding the templar in another city (trying to work the same strategy as before with the blood mage for their work), killed him after he refused to tell you where the blood mage is.
2. Blood mage would then hunt you down for killing the templar (a very useful tool of hers), but of course being the hero that you are, you ended up killing the blood mage instead. This is a random encounter on world map.
3. Being ambushed in Denerim by some soldiers. This is in Denerim Market District.
4. Being ambushed by your own commanding officer. After you defeat him, you have the option to either tell the truth or stay quiet or kill him. This is a random encounter in Denerim city map.

A few points to explain the reasonings behind my version:
1. It keeps both the nobleman and his son as pure innocent victims
2. It makes your partner as an actual really good guy that you don't want to kill but you have to
3. It makes your commanding officer a total jerk (all in the past, present, and future)
4. It introduces Duncan into the story without him being too friendly with you on personal level because you're supposed to be just a normal guy who wouldn't be friends with a Grey Warden
5. It makes the blood mage and templar to leave the estate without the intention of letting you to survive. The blood mage would plan to disappear, the templar plans to alert the guards elsewhere. They only left after they were satisfied that your partner would have no problem in killing you. Only to make a mistake that once they left, the blood magic weakens a little as your partner has a strong will of being a good guy. It wasn't part of the plan that the blood mage and templar ended up letting you to survive.

I hope my idea is somewhat okay, and hopefully it makes sense. Keep up the good work, Jaldaen. And also to the others who posted ideas (mad_cat, Songlian, Joff, etc)

Modifié par Jaldecir, 19 janvier 2010 - 11:21 .

[mad_cat_prime]

OK, I enjoyed your story but there are a few issues I have with it.

[quote]
In one of those situations, your sister will be there to be introduced to the player (maybe to praise you if you side with the elven servant, and to scold you if you support the noble who mistreated the elven servant).
[/quote]

I like what you do with this, but I think it more fitting it would be some guards harrassing a elf, or knife ears, for walking out of the Alienage without a permit.  Your choice is to side with the Elf or the Guards.  Perhaps if you start with Coerican, you can convince the guards they have harrassed the Elf enough.

Depending on how you handled the sitaution, the PC sister will scold you or give you a kiss on the cheek for being a good soldier (and big brother/sister).

[quote]
Duncan, being the smart man that he is, noticed that both you and your partner have the potential to be candidates.
[/quote]

How is Duncan able to size this up?  Perhaps there is some way Duncan saw how you handled the other guards, and noted that the two of you handled the situation well.  Though this would mean he would be impressed in either choice.  Some action or story of your deeds need to be expressed so Duncan already knows that you are a good candidate, and not because you look good in Armour.

[quote]
When you report your findings to the commanding officer, he didn't show sympathy, and instead sent the two of you back to find the truth, hoping that his son would take the center stage and impress Duncan by solving the case.
[/quote]

Perhaps the commanding officer had the son go off on his own to find the killer and set you for Guard duty.  This gives you the chance to argue back, it was your sister.  As you guard where ever, your friend has someone stand in your place and has you help with the investigation.  This shows he's a good guy, and later makes you appear more guilty as you disobeyed orders and you were found to kill his son.

[quote]
After you leave your commanding officer, a templar comes up to you claiming to know what happened to your sister.
[/quote]

Wouldn't appear suspicious if the Templar knew exactly what happened to your sister.  I would think that it is not that he knows, rather has a good idea what happened.

[quote]
The templar thinks the eldest son may have hired the assassin to get rid of his father so he could become the new Bann or perhaps the assassin is plotting something else.
[/quote]

Now that you changed the story from the sister having an affair with the noble to, the sister found out her Fiance the Noble, was having an affair...in my mind, the Noble would be young.  Perhaps his father is bed ridden.  While the oldest son has persumed much of the power, the younger son wants the power for himself and thus hires an assassin.

[quote]
...once you do this he will follow you to the assassin’s hideout.
[/quote]

That is a rather large leap that the youngest son will know where the Assassin's Hideout is.  I know the Templar is on the side of the Assassin, but wouldn't our characters question how he hopes to get that information?

[quote]
Once you’ve dispatched them and as the life blood pours out of his body
[/quote]

Is the Noble son wounded at this time or dying?  If he is dying, then why would the assassin want the Templar to kill the spare?

[quote]
So when she was hired (by Arl Howe) to get rid of the Bann and his eldest son, she decided to kill two birds with one stone.
[/quote]

So if you make the change I suggest, this would also need to be changed.  Arl Howe wants the eldest son and the younger son killed.  Why?  The father was an ally of Arl Howe, easy to manipulate.  But Arl Howe feels that the sons would not be easy to manipulate, and that the eldest has spoke against Arl Howe already.

[quote]
If you ask her what she plans to do with you and your partner, she says your partner is going to read the note on the table and do what it tells him. Your partner then reads the note.
[/quote]

But why does he read the note?  Just because he's told to?  Doesn't add up.  I think she would trick him.  Plus, she has already said the Partner will die, and the Templar has stated that she uses Blood Notes to force them to do what she desires.  So he's smart enough not to read the note, so we need a means for him to read the note, but not appear stupid.  We really want to hate this assassin for making the PC kill our friend.

[quote]
Once he finishes reading the note, he burns it with the candle on the table and begin his grim task of killing you.
[/quote]

You mean, trying to kill you, right?  I would imagine this scene is where you pick up arms and attempt to fight him.  Plus, you stated that the assassin doesn't leave until he starts, and the assassin has you paralyze.  Wouldn't she stay, keep your paralyze, have him stab you, and then stab the noble son?

Plus, why is it so important that he continues to stab the Noble son, if he is already dead?  Seem suspicious.  Would make more sense if he stood there saying nothing.

[quote]
The blood mage and the templar would then leave the estate, and the templar would alert the other guards to enter the house (which is why the note says to keep on stabbing until other guards arrive).
[/quote]

I have a problem with this scene.  So our hero's our fighting.  This would likely be a movie scene, and while they fight (for which you have no choice in the matter if you appear you are losing, which takes away from the interactive story) the movie cuts to them walking the streets and the Templar alerting the Guards and Duncan.  And what is Duncan doing there to begin with?  Is he following the boys, why is he following the boys?  We need some clarity here.

Then we jump back to the boys, and at that time, you have the ability to fight him, but no, you now have to decide if you should kill your friend, or have him kill you.  We want to limit the forced choices for the PC.  And you would need to make a choice there, and what if they choose to be killed instead?

[quote]
Your partner is genuinely a good friend with strong will, even under control of blood magic, he was half-aware that he was attacking his own friend though he had no control over what his body was doing.
[/quote]

That is plausible, to an extent, but how do we express this in dialogue, or in action.  We cannot suddenly have a narrator jump in and tell us.  Perhaps we see the friend fight himself as he throws your weapon away and proceeds to stab you, and as the blade touches you, he stops himself.

[quote]
However, you chose to stay quiet, refusing to answer as that would taint your partner's name.
[/quote]

Once again, this is a choice circumstance.  This story might make for a good novel or movie, but this game is centered around making choices, and the reward/consequences of those choices.  But in your narrative, you take away choice, you force the players to say nothing.  Despite killing your friend, what if they try to tell the truth?  What if you fib and say it was self defense.

[quote]
but would recruit you anyway, further fueling your commanding officer's anger. He would then say something along the line of "You two will pay for this. Mark my word, Grey Warden!"
[/quote]

1. why would he be mad at Duncan?
2. If he is so mad at the two of them, why not simply just arrest the both of them right there.  While Duncan may have the support of Kings, the Commander could feel so outraged he locks him up anyways.

[quote]
1. Accidentally finding the templar in another city (trying to work the same strategy as before with the blood mage for their work), killed him after he refused to tell you where the blood mage is.
[/quote]

Another forced choice, couldn't you also turn him in to the Chantry or other Templars?  Is Death always the option?

[quote]
2. Blood mage would then hunt you down for killing the templar (a very useful tool of hers), but of course being the hero that you are, you ended up killing the blood mage instead. This is a random encounter on world map.
[/quote]

Perhaps we could turn her in to the Circle of Magi?



Please do not take offense, I rather enjoyed your retelling and it has some added material that would make a good addition to the overall story.  Of course, the decision is not up to me.  This is just a skill I have, to pick apart a story and point out all the faults.  Ultimately, we do not want to force decisions for the PC.  We want to guide them, and encourage them to make a certain choice, but leave open the oppurtunity to make a seperate decision, even if it proves to be wrong later.

Modifié par mad_cat_prime, 20 janvier 2010 - 03:49 .

[Jaldaen]

Hello All,

Here's an updated version of the blood mage storyline. Let me know what you like/dislike about it... I think this version has a lot more emotion in it. Switching the sergeant to being your partner's father instead of yours really helped create an underlying tension, also  decided to have your partner and sister be romantically involved (and meet before the tavern scene), which I think helps ram up the emotions. I also came up with a plausible reason why the bloodmage wants you to survive... at least for a little while. So without further ado... here's the new (and hopefully improved) Denerim Guard storyline...

Blood Mage Assassin (Version #2)
 
Initial Quest: Your sergeant (and partner’s father) mentions a Grey Warden is in the city. This Grey Warden is looking for new recruits. Your sergeant makes it clear he thinks his son would make the perfect GW, though the son remains humble about his chances. Your sergeant asks you and your partner to patrol the Market District. While patrolling the Market District, you run into a couple different situations (a noble who is mistreating their elven servant; guards misusing their authority; or something else appropriate for a guard to run into). Along the way, you run into your sister, who is running one of the stalls in the market. Your partner and her set up a lunch date at the Gnawed Noble Tavern (there is an obvious romance going on).
Meeting with Duncan: When you travel to the back alley near the Wonders of Thedas, you discover a group of thugs accosting Duncan. A combat ensues and afterward Duncan introduces himself. Duncan recognizes your partner as the guard who helped him catch Daveth during his last visit to the city. He also asks your partner if he’d be interested in joining. Your partner says he’d be interested, but that you are a much better fighter than he is. Duncan promises to arrange a trial of skills for both of you with your sergeant and lets you continue with you patrolling.
After you’ve triggered the conversation with your sister, your run-in with Duncan, and at least two of the side quests in the Market, your partner says it’s time to head to the Gnawed Noble Tavern for lunch. The reason he wants you with him is because his father wants a Grey Warden for a son, and if his father suspected he was dating your sister, he’d put a stop to it. If you resist the idea, then your partner will “pull rank on you” and make it clear that you aren’t to tell anyone about him and your sister.
Complication: When you arrive at the Gnawed Noble, someone comes out shouting, “There’s been a murder inside the tavern!” When you investigate, you discover two bodies in the back room. One is your sister’s and the other one is a Bann. You also find a suicide note that claims the nobleman was carrying on an affair with your sister, but when he discovered she was going to leave him for another man he couldn’t let her live, nor live without her. You and your partner know your sister wouldn’t do such a thing, but the evidence is clear. When you report your findings (and perhaps misgivings) to the sergeant, he takes you both off the case, says you are to stay away from it, and sends you both home (you to prepare a funeral for your sister and your partner to prepare for a dinner with the Grey Warden later on tonight). Your partner storms out, promising to find out the truth. Your sergeant sends you after him and tells you to, “talk some sense into that boy or don’t bother come back.”
Ending Quest: Once you are outside, a templar comes up to you claiming to know what happened to your sister. He has been following a blood mage assassin for the last year. This mage has discovered a means to control his victims through the use of blood magic infused notes. These notes make the reader firmly believe everything written in it. The templar claims he was a target of one such note and it was only by the Maker’s grace that he was able to resist it. The templar has been following this assassin’s trail ever since and has tracked her down to the estate of the nobleman who just murdered your sister. The templar thinks the eldest son may have hired the assassin to get rid of his father so he could become the new Bann. The templar doesn’t dare involve the local Chantry because he fears one or more of the people there may be under the influence of the assassin and would warn her of a possible raid (he’s been betrayed once before).
The templar says if you can help him get close enough to the assassin, he can handle the rest. Since you are city guards and have the authority to investigate crimes, you will have an easier time accessing the house in question. He asks you get him a guard’s uniform (so he can accompany you) and once you do this he will follow you to the assassin’s hideout.
When you arrive at the estate, the house guards let you in, but once you are inside, the son’s lieutenant orders them to attack you. After you win the battle, the templar says you must move quickly before the assassin gets away. You have to fight your way to the son’s bedroom where you find him and his bodyguards saying you’ll never harm his beloved. Once you’ve dispatched him and as the life blood pours out of his body, the son will ask you, “Where am I?” (Or something similar) as if waking from a dream.
Crisis: An elven woman steps into the room and casts a spell. Both you and your partner are paralyzed. The templar says, “I’ve done what you asked, my love.” The blood mage thanks him and tells him to go get the city guards and to make sure your partner’s father comes with him. She can handle you both herself. The templar leaves to get the guards.
If you ask her why she has done this, she tells you that your fathers used to be house guards for a Bann, who raped her mother when she was a little girl. When her mother discovered she was pregnant, she killed herself and left her daughter an orphan. For years, the little girl felt powerless, until she discovered her magical talent. Since then, she has grown in power and plotted her revenge against your fathers. Unfortunately, your father died before she could have her revenge against him, but your sister’s death and you being branded a murderer will have to do in his stead.
If you ask why she had you kill this particular Bann and his son, she says that she was hired to get rid of them and decided to kill two birds with one stone. She would fulfill her contract and take her vengeance at the same time.
Your partner asks why she doesn’t just kill his father and she says there is more pain in surviving the death of your loved ones than in death itself.
If you ask why she killed your sister, she says it was the best way to concoct a motive for you and your partner to kill the eldest son. Now everyone will believe the two of you came here for revenge after what happened in the tavern.
Tired of all the talking, she uses blood magic to force you to draw your weapon and kill your partner. She grins in the background as you run your partner though, helpless to stop it.
When you are done, she hands you a note and says, “Read this once I’m gone.”
She leaves you with a kiss on your cheek and a whisper, “Enjoy the pain of life. I certainly hope you enjoy it while it lasts.” (Or something similar… since your father isn’t around she wants you to suffer in his stead.)
The note tells you to burn it and that once it is completely burned away, you’ll be free to do as you wish after all who is going to believe your story. As the note burns away, you hear the sounds of approaching guards.
The city guards arrive just as the embers die away. They arrest you for the murder of the Bann’s son. Your partner’s father comes into the room followed by Duncan (who had been having dinner with your partner’s father). When your partner’s father asks you what happened here, you can say whatever you want, but he won’t believe you. Your partner’s father draws his sword intending to kill you, but Duncan intervenes, invoking the right of conscription. Your partner’s father tells Duncan he’s made an enemy today and to get you out of his sight. Duncan and you quickly leave the city and head for Ostagar.
 
Background Stuff:
Your Character: Your sister and you are orphans. Your father was a guardsman and friend of your partner’s father. He died while on duty and your mother was killed during a robbery or some other crime. The combination of your connections to the guard and your mother’s death led you into becoming a guard and your sister into taking over your mother’s market stand. Together your sister and you make enough to keep a roof over your head and pay for what you need (and sometimes what you want). It’s not a noble’s life, but it is a good life none the less.
Partner’s Father: The reason your partner’s father wants his son to become a Grey Warden for is because your sergeant was supposed to be recruited by the GW a long time ago, but just before his trial he suffered an accident that left his leg crippled beyond magical repair. Perhaps his accident was caused by the elven girl, who eventually grew up to be the blood mage.
Blood Mage Assassin: After her mother committed suicide, she grew up in the elven orphanage in the Alienage and when her magical powers manifested, she hid them. When she grew up, she sought out apostate mages through the mage collective and honed her powers. That’s when she learned of blood magic and the ability to control others. It’s then that she realized her calling. It took years of study, trial and error, but she has mastered some of the lost arts of blood magic. She realized her talents could be very useful as an assassin and has been selling her services to Arl Howe among others.
 
Future Run-ins:
I intend on having your character run into the templar, blood mage, and your partner’s father later in the game (perhaps even for all the origins… though the human commoner origin would get the most out of this side quest). I foresee an ambush by the father in the back alleys of Denerim. I was also thinking of having you find a letter to the assassin in Arl Howe’s private rooms (or one Arl Howe’s body) just before the Landsmeet… something that will lead you to a showdown with the templar and assassin. Or I might go with you finding the templar first and then tracking down the blood mage from there.
 
The primary problem with this origin is that there is no one who carries over from your origin to the epilogue… unlike all the other origins. One possibility would be for your mother to be alive, but then I’d need a reason why she isn’t in the city… perhaps she’s visiting her sick mother. Of course there is the addition of a personal quest related to your origin and that is different, too. So perhaps the closure is just in a different spot.

Best Wishes,
Joseph

PS: I'll hopefully have the Blight Refugee storyline written up in the next couple days and post that, too.

[Jaldaen]

Mad_Cat,



Besides using her blood notes, the blood mage would also have more traditional blood magic, which allows her to force people to do what she wants... so the truly insidious thing is that she can make them read her blood notes if need be. The primary difference between the blood notes and run-of-the-mill blood magic is that her notes don't require her to be present. They also have a longer lasting effect on their victims and can even effect their minds.



As you might suspect, the blood mage has obtained a seriously powerful blood magic grimoire and is still experimenting with all its spells and enchantments.

[mad_cat_prime]

I will analyze your story tomorrow, but as far as the epilogue, if you can prove your innocence, then Alister (or whoever is the king/queen) will make you a Commander is the City Guard. If you are unable to, you travel the road looking for new adventure or starting up the Grey Wardens.

[Jaldecir]

This is going to be super long post with 2 main content of the post being reply to mad_cat's comment about my idea, and also a response to Jaldaen's new storyboard.

I'll try to reply to mad_cat's comment first, and I'll avoid using quote tag for this because I think quote tags are somehow eating too much space on this forum. If I miss any, just feel free to ask again, mad_cat. And before I even start replying, I'd like to clarify that my version of storyboard above is still largely using Jaldaen's own with modification here and there made by me. So there will be things that I'd simply go with "that's Jaldaen's original idea and I don't feel the need to really change things up" as the reason as to why my version is like that. So here goes:

1. I don't mind either way whether the sister introduction is about noble mistreating elf servant or about elf walking out of Alienage without permit. To me, the important part is that it would introduce the sister to the player and show a bit of affection between the character and the sister.

2. Duncan knowing about you and your partner being worthy can be attributed to the previous (not in the game) meeting involving Daveth where both you and your partner were involved. If that isn't convincing enough, it can be changed into something like "Duncan won't be easily swayed by the commander's sweet words about his son, and instead wait to see his performance first before making his decision to recruit your partner". The important thing is that Duncan isn't buying what the jerk commander is saying because it's pure exaggeration just to sweet talk Duncan into recruiting the son.

3. The initial idea for me as to why the commander sent both you and your partner is that he's hoping that his son would upstage you and end up impressing Duncan by being the one who's important to solve the case. But I don't mind your idea either, mad_cat.

4. Templar being suspicious, I'm not too sure about it. It's one of the some that I left it to Jaldaen's original part. I personally don't find it suspicious because the templar is in cahoots with the blood mage. So he'd be keeping an eye on your partner, and he'd know who to approach. And when he approached you and your partner, he already had a backstory of chasing the blood mage for long time so that you wouldn't be too suspicious that he knows quite a lot about what's going on.

5. About the nobleman's age. From my understanding is that the nobleman who is engaged to your sister already has one son (I simply forgot to delete the part about "eldest" son as if indicating that there is a younger son), and that the wife is dead, so your sister would be engaged to become second wife.

[quote]That is a rather large leap that the youngest son will know where the
Assassin's Hideout is.  I know the Templar is on the side of the
Assassin, but wouldn't our characters question how he hopes to get that
information?[/quote]
Using the quote tag specifically for this part because I'm a bit confused. What do you mean with "youngest son"? I'm not sure I mentioned any youngest son at all. That part is also basically untouched from Jaldaen's original story that I skimmed out. But I'll try to explain a bit about that part. Basically templar approached you and your partner with the information about blood mage, and how the templar has been chasing the blood mage for the last year. You and your partner have no reason to actually doubt this templar, and since his story is that the nobleman's son is the culprit who hired the blood mage as assassin, of course you'd believe that the hideout is simply the nobleman's house and there's no reason to question about the information about hideout because the story fits (your sister kills the nobleman while being controlled by blood magic, the blood magic is used by a blood mage, the blood mage is hired by the nobleman's son, and obviously the son is at home in the estate)

6. "The spare" refers to the noble's son because he's totally innocent and simply being used by the blood mage to lure you and your partner into there. Why would the assassin want the templar to kill the noble's son? Well there's no use for the noble's son to live anyway. So might as well kill him.

[quote]So if you make the change I suggest, this would also need to be
changed.  Arl Howe wants the eldest son and the younger son killed. 
Why?  The father was an ally of Arl Howe, easy to manipulate.  But Arl
Howe feels that the sons would not be easy to manipulate, and that the
eldest has spoke against Arl Howe already.[/quote]
Using another quote tag on this part because I'm a bit confused. In my version, Arl Howe wants the son and the nobleman to be dead. There is no youngest son at all. The nobleman is your sister's fiance as she'd be the second wife, and she would be step-mother to the son despite probably being around the same age (so basically the nobleman is a bit older, say about Teagan's age, but the fiance to be second wife who is your sister is a younger woman). Also, what is this part about the father was an ally of Arl Howe? Sons would not be easy to manipulate? Eldest has spoken against Arl Howe already? I'm totally confused about this part. IF you were referrring to Urien and Vaughan of Denerim, I'm going to say that the nobleman and the son in this story are not Urien and Vaughan and simply not related to them at all. Let's just say that the nobleman and the son are friends with Cousland or something so that if Howe wanted to eliminate Cousland, then he'd better eliminate the friends of Cousland too.

7. About reading the note, it's also Jaldaen's original story and I left it untouched. But from my understanding, when the blood mage showed up and paralyzed you and your partner, she'd have a bit of control of the two of you already, enough to stop you two. Then she'd probably started controlling your partner into reading the note. Once reading the blood note, your friend would then become fully under control of the blood magic (though later on weakening because of your partner's strong will).

8. Let's just say that the blood mage can only paralyze you and your partner for a while and not unlimited time. She then un-paralyze you once your partner is under control of the blood magic. She let you go because she wanted to have evidence of there was a struggle between you and your partner rather than just him stabbing you til you die. Plus, she was overconfident by your partner's reputation of being the best soldier (so basically he's famous for being number one, but you're just a nobody to them because they don't know who you are and that you're actually as good as your partner).

9. As for the continuation of stabbing, it is to ensure that your partner was meant to be caught in the act of killing the noble's son. If the guards came in and your partner just stood there while the noble's son and you are dead, there's nothing to implicate your partner. Your partner can technically get out of the situation by saying that the noble's son killed you, and your partner then killed the noble's son in self-defense or something like that. The idea is to catch your partner in the act of stabbing/killing the noble's son so that there's no way to get out of it.

10. About the blood mage and templar leaving. The blood mage needs to leave and "disappear" because there needs to be nothing at all that can give hints of blood mage's involvement in the whole thing. So she MUST leave before the guards arrive. The guards won't arrive at the estate if nobody tells them because only you, your partner and the templar went to the estate. You pretty much killed everyone in the estate. So the estate now only have 4 alive people, the blood mage, the templar, you, and your partner. Your partner and you were fighting. The blood mage needs to disappear so she left. The templar (remember that he's wearing a soldier uniform as disguise) would also leave to alert the commander about what happened at the estate so that they would serve as witnesses as the plan where your partner would be caught in the act.

11. What Duncan was doing to begin with? Well he was there with the commander, remember? So when the templar alerted the commander, obviously Duncan was there with him too and then decided to come along to the estate.

12. About showing your partner's strong will, it can be done with spoken words by your partner. Can be with different coive, just like how Connor sometimes regain his real self from the Desire Demon. Or simply words like "I can't control my body for too long because the blood magic is too strong .. I can only stay in control for a while using my will ...  bla bla bla"

[quote]Once again, this is a choice circumstance.  This story might make for a
good novel or movie, but this game is centered around making choices,
and the reward/consequences of those choices.  But in your narrative,
you take away choice, you force the players to say nothing.  Despite
killing your friend, what if they try to tell the truth?  What if you
fib and say it was self defense.[/quote]
I disagree. You are right that the game is centered around making choices, but remember that this is only the origin part. In the origin part, you have very limited choices to be made because the origin part always ends up the same way no matter what you do/say. If you really want to have (fake) choices, sure, we can have options to tell the truth, or lie, or whatever, but in the end, it all comes down to the commander blaming you, not believing what you said, and all that because he saw you stabbing his son with his own eyes, then he'd want you executed for your crime no matter what. Mentioning that the player chose to stay quiet is being used to give a hint to Duncan that there's something wrong and that it's not like what is seen, and thus, Duncan would choose to believe that you aren't to blame, that you're still worthy to join the Grey Warden, despite being caught in the act of killing your partner.

[quote]1. why would he be mad at Duncan?
2. If he is so mad at the two of
them, why not simply just arrest the both of them right there.  While
Duncan may have the support of Kings, the Commander could feel so
outraged he locks him up anyways.[/quote]
1. Because Duncan would use the Right of Conscription to recruit you (his son's killer)
2. Because he can't fight a Grey Warden. Even the dwarves can't touch Duncan and Dwarf Commoner who did massive boo boo.

[quote]Another forced choice, couldn't you also turn him in to the Chantry or other Templars?  Is Death always the option?[/quote]
Remember that only you knew about the templar. You have no evidence at all about what he does whatsoever. So you bring him ot the Chantry or other Templars. Then what? Say that he worked with a blood mage? Where's this blood mage? No idea. Who's the blood mage? No idea. Who'll actually believe you when you have zero evidence while the Denerim soldiers and commander witnessed you killing your partner? If you really want another option other than death, then fine, let him go away or something. Then maybe the templar can show up along with the blood mage on the second encounter if being let go.

[quote]Perhaps we could turn her in to the Circle of Magi?[/quote]
Sure if you want more choices rather than being forced to kill the blood mage. Maybe even add a dialogue if Wynne and/or Alistair are in the party.

And don't worry at all. I don't take any offense at all, but I do want to say that sometimes people don't need to overthink the plot too much. There are things in the game that don't make much sense either if you think too much about it. As long as the main point works well, I find it okay. Also, I think I answered all those for kind of a moot point now that Jaldaen has come up with improved version of the storyboard that my version isn't exactly needed. XD

---

Okay now moving onto Jaldaen's second version of the storyboard.

[quote] You have to fight your way to the son’s bedroom where you find him and his bodyguards saying you’ll never harm his beloved.[/quote]
I'm always confused about this part, even on the original part (which is why I deleted this part on my version of idea). Who is this "his beloved" you're referring to anyway and why is this beloved person being mentioned?

[quote]If you ask her why she has done this, she tells you that your fathers
used to be house guards for a Bann, who raped her mother when she was a
little girl[/quote]
I totally misread this part before, now I understand that BOTH PC's father and partner's father were guards of the Bann who raped the blood mage's mother. But having said that, if the "crime" committed by the PC's father and partner's father is simply being guards of the Bann, wouldn't that be a bit weak reason to have vengeance? Maybe change it into the fathers being the ones who raped her mother instead so that it would become more personal?

[quote]When you are done, she hands you a note and says, “Read this once I’m gone.”
She
leaves you with a kiss on your cheek and a whisper, “Enjoy the pain of
life. I certainly hope you enjoy it while it lasts.” (Or something
similar… since your father isn’t around she wants you to suffer in his
stead.)[/quote]
Like mad_cat's comment about this part to my version, why would the PC want to read the note? Was the PC being controlled to read the note?

[quote]The note tells you to burn it and that once it is completely burned
away, you’ll be free to do as you wish after all who is going to
believe your story. As the note burns away, you hear the sounds of
approaching guards.[/quote]
So the note only tells you to burn it, and that once it's completely burned away, you'll no longer be under control. Isn't that a bit weak ? (sorry if I use the wrong word, English isn't my first language, so I apologize and meant no offense with using "weak") What I meant is that the note seems to have very little importance at all if it only serves to be burned. And isn't the note supposed to be the source of "control" by the blood mage?

[quote]Partner’s Father: The reason
your partner’s father wants his son to become a Grey Warden for is
because your sergeant was supposed to be recruited by the GW a long
time ago, but just before his trial he suffered an accident that left
his leg crippled beyond magical repair. Perhaps his accident was caused
by the elven girl, who eventually grew up to be the blood mage.[/quote]
I don't think there's a need to include the elven girl in this part because there's no significance to it at all. It would just make things feel too coincidental if everyone is involved with everyone in the past just by chance.

[quote]The primary problem with this origin is that there is no one who carries over from your origin to the epilogue[/quote]
How about this. If you make it so that you found the letter/contract between Howe and the blood mage first, then being ambushed by partner's father, then tell the truth and provide evidence (thus, he'd realize that you're innocent), then maybe the partner's father can be the epilogue character for commoner origin? because in your version of story, the partner's father isn't actually a jerk, so it might make sense for him to actually kind of consider you like his own son after he found out about the truth?

Another alternative is to simply introduce another character who isn't actually involved with the origin storyline, but of an importance to you. The mother would fit this part, and maybe even make a small scene of you visiting your mother in Denerim in mid-game again to show how your mother has suffered and thought of relocating to other cities because the people in Denerim had treated her very badly since the incident with your partner.

Other than the questions I have above, I think the story is very believable and great. I'd also like to agree with mad_cat about giving more and more choices to the players. The more the better, even if the outcome is pretty much "forced". Keep up the good work, Jaldaen.

Modifié par Jaldecir, 20 janvier 2010 - 01:08 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Interesting, but IMHO, the Blood Note thing is kinda...stretching it. Mind Control is already difficult enough. Why not just make it regular blood control?

Or to make it more dynamic, you can add some random change factor to some events.

Let's say the blood mage orders the templar to kill your friend - he does it, but you see he is trying to fight it. You can try to talk to the templar and maybe he snaps out of it. Maybe not. If he does, he fights the blood mage and gets killed, but the blood mage is wounded and runs away..

Or the blood mage directly orders you to stab the corpse. Your friend tries to interfere, and is killed.

This really is interesting, since there are so many ways it could go.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 20 janvier 2010 - 08:26 .

[_- Songlian -]

I like the new story a lot ! It's definitely an improved version.

Some comments: 

* I was glad to read the new Duncan bits - intro and conscription. They make much more sense now and it all goes into the general tone of those other Origins, which is good imo because it makes your story that much more professional and fitting with the rest of the game.  

* I really enjoyed the "Complication" part of the story, as well. The different characters really stand out there, as I see them:  your partner as the dutiful, good guy and his father perhaps the bitter man, who has been spoiled of his just recruitment into the Grey Wardens and is walking on the edge of morality. It's a very real combo and it gives the chance to create well polished characters. Also, just to make sure I got things right: your father and the sergeant both raped the blood mage's mother, yes? Which means the PC's father wasn't exactly the epitome of morality, either. 

* Between "Complication" and "Ending Quest" you need a dialogue with your partner. Because he stormed out and you were left to talk with the father, even if for a brief time. So you'd need to catch up with him and at least attempt to stop him, so that the templar can have a chance to come into the scene. I'm saying this because by the time you leave for the mansion, the partner is already with you. Unless you want to play it in a different way. 

* I'm not sure about the part where the PC is reading the note. Basically she gives him a kiss and tells him to read the note handed to him. Unless I'm missing something - which is very likely - the note only says that he should burn it. So why read a note that only tells you to burn it? There's more to it, yes?

* You wrote about the future run-ins and I think it's a path worth taking, which anchors the origin that much better. Now instead of you finding a note in the Arl Howe's mansion, how about you finding the mage in one of the rooms? After all, he is no stranger to hiring assassins. *cough* Zevran *cough* That will deal with one of the run-ins and possibly leaving a clue to finding the templar. I'm thinking you could even offer the player a choice here:  strike a deal with the mage and let her flee in exchange for something - some item or information - or avenge your sister and come out empty handed. 

That's about it for now. It's really a good story.  

Song 

Modifié par - Songlian -, 20 janvier 2010 - 12:18 .

[Jaldecir]

- Songlian - wrote...
Also, just to make sure I got things right: your father and the sergeant both raped the blood mage's mother, yes? Which means the PC's father wasn't exactly the epitome of morality, either.

I re-read that part of the story a few times myself, but now my understanding is that PC's father and the partner's father were simply guards of the Bann. The Bann was the one who raped the blood mage's mother. I do prefer if both the fathers were the rapists instead to make things more personal.

* You wrote about the future run-ins and I think it's a path worth taking, which anchors the origin that much better. Now instead of you finding a note in the Arl Howe's mansion, how about you finding the mage in one of the rooms? After all, he is no stranger to hiring assassins. *cough* Zevran *cough* That will deal with one of the run-ins and possibly leaving a clue to finding the templar. I'm thinking you could even offer the player a choice here:  strike a deal with the mage and let her flee in exchange for something - some item or information - or avenge your sister and come out empty handed.

I like the idea of having a choice to strike a deal with the blood mage. If for information though, what kind of information do you have in mind that would fit with the story? I'm a bit stuck on this part because the personal quest line would have the blood mage as the goal. If we trade her life for information, what kind of information would be worth it to trade for the life of someone who killed your sister? Any idea?

[_- Songlian -]

Jaldecir wrote...

I re-read that part of the story a few times myself, but now my understanding is that PC's father and the partner's father were simply guards of the Bann. The Bann was the one who raped the blood mage's mother. I do prefer if both the fathers were the rapists instead to make things more personal.

This is the original quote :

If you ask her why she has done this, she tells you that your fathers used to be house guards for a Bann, who raped her mother when she was a little girl. When her mother discovered she was pregnant, she killed herself and left her daughter an orphan. For years, the little girl felt powerless, until she discovered her magical talent. Since then, she has grown in power and plotted her revenge against your fathers. 


I assumed that the reason why she seeks revenge was because they did the deed. Otherwise what would be her motive? That they failed at guarding her? That they looked the other way when the Bann did it?

I'd also prefer it if both fathers raped her, because it makes for a great motive. You know, the guards who abuse their powers... Very believable situation. But I'm not completely sure this is what happened. We'll just have to wait until Jaldaen comes online to clear this one up for us.  

Jaldecir wrote... 

I like the idea of having a choice to strike a deal with the blood mage. If for information though, what kind of information do you have in mind that would fit with the story? I'm a bit stuck on this part because the personal quest line would have the blood mage as the goal. If we trade her life for information, what kind of information would be worth it to trade for the life of someone who killed your sister? Any idea?

I think this part is best decided once Jaldaen completes the PC's background. For instance, if he'll decide that the mother of the PC should be alive, perhaps the mage could point the PC towards where she could be found. She sought revenge on the family, after all, so it wouldn't be out of the ordinary for her to know where all the members are. Maybe the mother of the PC left them when they were young, instead of dying. Edit: And perhaps, if found, she could be present in the Epilogue, making the connection between the Origin and the end of the game.

If Jaldaen puts the mother out of the equation, perhaps she could offer information on where the templar is hiding.

On the practical side, she could offer information on where to find an important item - for instance a mighty sword, an amulet or some other powers the PC would find useful. An information about  a certain noble which the PC could use to blackmail and help him get something better. An information on a mansion where the PC could sneak in and steal the aforementioned sword... and so on. 

It's would be a situation similar to Medea and the Golden Fleece: she teaches the hero how to get that which he craves. 

Song 

Modifié par - Songlian -, 20 janvier 2010 - 02:56 .

[Jaldaen]

Jaldecir, Lotion, and Song,

Thanks for your comments...

First off... both your father (the one you probably idolized) and your partner's father raped the blood mage's mother. I can see how when I edited that part I forgot to take out the "house guards of a Bann" part to make it clear.

The reference to the son's "beloved" is a reference to the blood mage, who used her blood magic to manipulate the eldest son into falling in love with her. However, I'm open to changing this if anyone has ideas. Perhaps the blood mage has no ties to the eldest son at all and only arrives to make sure her plan comes to fruition.

As for why you read the note... I was assuming that she forces you to through the use of blood magic.

I'm still debating what I could put in the note... I was trying to think of something that wouldn't be as restrictive as "tell no one anything." After all, the blood mage would know that you have no other evidence to link her to the murders. I figured that burning the letter would delay your character long enough for the blood mage to get away. However, perhaps I should have the note say you are to plunge your sword into the dead Bann's son and wait there until the city guard arrives... that way she knows you'll be caught. I think I like that better. I think the blood mage would enjoy making you feel powerless, just like she did so long ago.

In regards to an epilogue character... I'll try to think of one. Perhaps the best one would be that your mother left you and your sister when she was young (instead of dying). I'll mull that over for a little bit.

As for why I'm using the blood notes... they are a way of controlling people without the bloodmage being present. However, I am open to other suggestions b/c in truth the blood note is only needed to set-up the ending and I'd be fine with some other method being used as long as it made sense. Perhaps as Lotion says, I can simply make everything an obvious use of blood magic. After all, the blood mage could use her powers on the Bann before sending him to the Gnawed Noble Tavern. I'd assume that the more exposure you have to the blood mage's magic, the more potent her control would be... and if she was acting as a lover of the eldest son, then she'd also have access to the Bann at his estate.

Of course, I could just have the blood notes be a red herring of sorts... just part of the story concocted by the blood mage and templar... but that seems less satisfying. I think I'd rather have the blood notes... or just make it clear that you and others are being manipulated by blood magic.

As for various ways for the crisis scene to play out... that's a possibility... I'll have to ponder it a bit more and figure out what possibilities are the most dramatic and make the most sense for the story.

As for there being a diaolgue between you and your partner after he storms out on his father... that's another editing gaffe... I wrote that in there, but as I was editing I think I got too cut happy and lost that bit. I'll put it back in. I had added an additional scene where after you finish your conversation, a little girl gives you a message to meet someone (the templar) at the Chantry if you want to find out the truth. I thought that perhaps the origin already has enough steps to it and so I axed it (and unfortunately the reference to the conversation after your partner's father sends you both away).

As for striking a deal with the blood mage... I'll have to think about that, too. It's possible, but will require some contemplation to figure out what might be worth the deal. Perhaps she offers you a tome of blood magic... and therefore another way to access blood magic. Or it could be a combination of things (a sword created by a blood mage, something that will help you in your final battle with the Archdemon, etc.).

Thanks for all the ideas and for pointing out where I need to strengthen the storyline.

Best Wishes,
Joseph

Modifié par Jaldaen, 20 janvier 2010 - 03:46 .

[mad_cat_prime]

@Jaldcir

OK, 5 and 6 are related to each other.

First off, you stated you are confused in number 6 because of your preestablished story.  But, my first line in that statement, "If you make the change I suggest", meaning I am deviating from your story and if you apply what I before said you should change, then this would apply.  If you don't change what I suggested before hand, then this suggestion is null and void.

First off, you didn't explain this was a second wife, which you addressed in this post.

5. OK, so the Templar approaches you, tells you this story to convince you to find this Noble's son.  Now in my suggestion, it would be younger son as the younger son hired an assassin to kill the older brother.  As far as the assassin hideout, I misread this part and saw something different.  But I do have a question, why would the assassin hideout be in her 'customers' house?

Now, before you go and try to explain how it is important for the plot, I understand.  But to say it is the Assassin Hideout, makes it a bit confusing for lots of reasons that will just spark lots of pointless debate.  It would appear you are just calling it that, and their main objective would be to question the son.  Think Law and Order.  You know there was an assassin, and you know a vague idea of who it is, and you know who hired them.  You wouldn't expect that going to the person who hired the assassin to be haboring the assassin.  If the job is done, the assassin has disappeared.

But, there was an alterative motive on the assassins part.  But our characters at this time do not know that.  They won't think to themselves, "Hey, if we go to the Son's house, we'll meet the assassin there."  Instead, they would likely think, "If we go there, perhaps we can find out where the assassin is."

Also for this reason (and I know this wasn't originally your idea), the Templar wouldn't need a guards outfit.  They could tell the House Guards that he is with them helping with the investigation.  Unless you explain that the Templar doesn't want anyone to know he's a templar.  But I do not imagine city guards stealing a uniform and giving it to a random person they meet, even if it is a trusty templar.  They are good soldiers, and there are protocol.  Such as report any new findings to their superiors.  So in order for this to work, they would ignore protocol, give him a uniform, and say it did work out they way the soldiers hoped, would need to explain to their superiors why the Templar has a guard's uniform without being informed of what they were doing, lets just say with most military organizations, the end does not justify the means.

6. So, starting with my before suggestion about younger brother killing older brother while their fathers lays in his death bed.

Templar kills the Noble's son.  Well, as your version, and the original, suggests that when the blood is flowing, which I can deduce means out of his body.  Now in the dark ages or renaissance, which most fantasy is based on, any blood leaving the body, in the respect of 'flowing', this would be a mortal wound.  He would likely die from this unless a mage heals him, and quick.  So, for the Templar to kill him is redundant, because he's already going to die, albiet slowly.  So there is no reason for the Templar to kill someone who is already dying.  The only way this would work is if you mean something completely different from 'blood is flowing'.

I am not going to touch on the rest of 6 unless you want to discuss it, because you would need to take my previous suggestions and put them into place for my suggestion of 6 to make sense.

8. How in the dark ages are they able to deduce a strugle?  They could easily kill him, place his body in whatever figure they want, and it looks like a struggle.  We are not exactly dealing with forensic science here.

9. This does make sense.  If he simply stands there, his father can make up whatever conclusion he wants so his son is painted a hero.  We do need to see him actually killing him for there to be the suggestion that he was killed.

10. The problem we have here, is distance and time.  We don't know either one.  Now the Templar is said to be getting the guards.  Now when I read that, I suspected that he was going to a local unit of guards, and not back to your partners father and Duncan.  Is duncan and the father just down the street?  Or are they on the other side of the kingdom.  How long does it take the Templar to go there and back?  And why address both of them to begin with?  If the father is there, he has better chance of cleaning things up to make this go away.  But if other guards arrest him, and state that they saw him doing the killing, hard to cover up other people's testimony (possible, but hard).  Now I understand for the Plot, we need Duncan to be there.  Perhaps Duncan conducts his own investigation and determines a different outcome, but no one will listen to him and thus recruits the PC anyways.

11. Refer to 11, it wasn't stated he was going back to Duncan, just the guards.

12. Dealing with the story of the City Elf, I came to a point where I had a decision.  Now the goal of Dragon Age, is that decisions you make have an echo effect.  That it will come back and you will find out if the decision you made was the right one.  So when I met Vaughn in the castle, he gave me a choice.  Now, this was not a fake decision, but you are right that either decision I make, I will still be a Grey Warden.  So if it is not a fake decision, what are the reprocussions?

Either A:  I take the 12 pieces of gold and let Vaughn rape one of the female elves and probably kill her.

Or B: Kill Vaughn.

Once again, I'll become a GW either way.  But if I return to Denerim...if I take option B, I will be a criminal, and travel will be harder for me.  But if I chose A, it will be relativily easy.  But what if the Alienage finds out option A, that I sold out my fellow elves, then I would Ostracized.  So either I'm ostracized or a criminal...but still a GW.

So yeah, I could say something, or stay silent.  Maybe if I say something, and later bring evidence of what I said, your Partner's father could believe you at a later time.  But, if you say nothing, and still bring him evidence, he will say you are making stuff up just to save your own skin.  Either way, you are still a GW.  So while in your opinion the end result is the same, there are later reprocussions.

(please don't spoil the City Elf quest for me, I want to play through it without knowing the answers as best as possible).


"Don't overthink the plot."  The original intent of this mod is to give a great story.  And we are geeks, we nitpick at everything.  My goal is to reduce the amount of oppurtunity for other geeks to nitpick this story, to make it as good as it possibly can.  So I am going to over analyze every aspect so that Jaldaen and everyone else has the benefit of that knowledge.  Now he could simply ignore it, but he has proven that he does read everything, and I am at least satisfied that he reads it.  If something I said makes it into the final story, Kudos to me, if not, I still did my job.

And yes, Jaldaen has come up with a different story, but our conversation may yet inspire him.

@Jaldaen, Lotion, Jaldecir

There is a part that bothers me.  The Blood mage uses blood magic/mind control to get him to read the note.  This has a lot of philisophical problems.

Starting with blood magic, controlling the body.  The Blood Mage gets your partner to hold the note, gets him to open his eyes, maybe even position the eyes to look at the note.  But he could still not read it.  I've stared at a book before, staired at the words, and not read what was in front of me.  I could read them aloud, and still not know what I just read.  At what point does the note take affect?

Lets go with mind control.  If I control someone's mind and get them to read the note, are they actually reading it?  Would the note affect them, or also affect me because I am controlling their mind?

It makes the issue very complicated for either situation.  I would think that the person has to volunteer to read it on their own, without mind/body manipulation.  That is kind of a drawback to this kind of magic.

So, how do we resolve this.  Your Partner needs to read the note.  But he knows from the Templar, that reading the note, he will do whatever it says.  So either A, the Templar just said she can control people's minds, but doesn't mention the blood note, and after he reads it, not knowing what it will do to him, she explains to you that she can have people do what ever is written on there, such as killing you.

Or B, the Templar holds his sword at your throat and your friend see no other choice but to read the note, understanding he will do whatever is written on there.

@Jaldaen

I like the blood notes to remain in the game, and to be her main weapon.  People love reading notes.  I was thinking that after this, the Templar (if he really is a Templar) part was with the Assassin, and we find him in the bar near the Circle of Magi.  Why?  He feels that she wouldn't come close to there, if she decided to kill him.  When you see him, he states you look familiar, and then realizes who you are and tries to plead for his life, thus giving you the choice to let him live or not.  This could give you the chance to find the blood mage location (going to her, instead of her coming to you), or just simple revenge.

[Jaldecir]

Jaldaen,



Ah thank you for clarifying about the two fathers. I kept on misunderstanding that part into thinking that only the Bann is the one who raped the blood mage's mother. Now that it's actually the two of the fathers, things make more sense.



However, another question is this. You mentioned that the blood mage was hired (by Arl Howe) to kill the Bann and the son. But you also sometimes refer to the son as "eldest son", is there a "younger/youngest son" at all? My impression about why Howe would want to hire an assassin to kill the Bann and the son is that he wanted the family eliminated. If there is a younger son, I find it a bit confusing why only kill the Bann and the eldest son. Oh, and I do suggest to take out the "beloved" part because at that time when he said it (just as you entered the room), the elven girl hasn't even made her appearance yet. It's weird for the son to mention about her when she wasn't even there (still hiding). It can create confusion to the players, especially since there's no real indication to show that the son was "in love/controlled to be in love" with the blood mage.



Ignoring the blood note and making it obvious that there's blood magic involved would defeat the purpose IMO, at least for me. What I like about the story very much is how there is no hint whatsoever about the involvement of the blood mage and the templar so much that the nobody would believe you if you tell others about them. So in your personal quest, it can be used to somewhat clear your name and tell others the truth. But either way, it's okay with me. I just prefer to hide the involvement of the blood mage, only to be revealed at the conclusion of the personal quest.



--



mad_cat,



1. About the second wife part, I think it should be obvious just by reading it. The bood mage's mission was to kill the nobleman and the son. The son was in the house, the nobleman died with your sister who is engaged to the nobleman. So the nobleman is the father. If the nobleman already has a son, then it has to be from previous wife since your sister can't be the mother of the son.



2. About the term "Assassin's Hideout", that's the term used in Jaldaen's original storyboard. I didn't bother changing it because it's a storyboard for the readers here. What terms used in the game itself by Jaldaen might/not be different. It's simply ideas, not the word-by-word script itself.



3. If you prefer to go to the house to question the son, feel free. Again, that part is simply Jaldaen's original concept that I didn't touch.



4. Your change about the guard uniform is also irrelevant to me since it would be in your version, not mine. I have no problem with that idea.



6. Blood is flowing part is also Jaldaen's original storyboard. I didn't touch it, and it's not word-by-word script either.



8. Easy method to show struggle is to have both you and your partner to be in a fight and injure each other. Can the blood mage control the two of you to do that? Sure she can. But again, she underestimated you because you have no reputation of being a good fighter while your partner is very well-known to be the best.



10. Distance and time don't matter at all in Dragon Age: Origins in case you haven't noticed that while playing through the game. If you're really worried about it, then make the templar leave the house early, then get the blood mage to play cards with you and your partner to kill time (or whatever other time killing activities), then when the guards are noisy enough to be assumed nearby, start the plot about blood notes and whatnot.



12. Your comparison with the City Elf origin doesn't make sense. Being a criminal makes travelling harder for you? What are you even talking about? Now think about Human Noble origin, and let us know what are the choices and what are the reprocussions based on the choices in the Human Noble origin. I'm interested to see what you can come up with.



13. I just personally think that it's a bit unhealthy to overthink the story. If you prefer to overthink the story anyways because that's how you are, then that's fine with me. ^^

[mad_cat_prime]

Ok, you don't see how being a Murder of a City Guard in Denerim would make travel through Denerim difficult to do, given that people know your face, probably have wanted posters, people know you are a Grey Warden...and you don't see how that makes going through Denerim difficult?



At this point, I am done with this topic. We can discuss this back and forth, but I made my point, you retorted, I retorted to your retort, and you retorted to my retort of your retort. I think enough has been said.

[Jaldaen]

Hello All,

I have some bad news for you all... and its because of some good news for me. I have a writing opportunity (not with Bioware... though I wish!) that I just can't pass up, but which will demand a lot of my free time in the coming months to finish by the deadline. As such, I'm going to have to put all my side projects (including this one) on hold. I really hate doing this because I don't like leaving things unfinished. However, I know that I can't pass up this opportunity... and so I'm going to have to stop the project for now. I don't make this decision lightly... I am just glad this happened now rather than further into the project.

Now, if anyone would like my notes for another project and/or would like to take over this project and keep it going in my absence, then please let me know and I'll get you my files. I suspect that a file full of Duncan's dialogues (with .dlg references) could be useful to some modder.

I'm sorry if I disappointed anyone. I've had projects pulled on me before (including a 60,000 word book!) and I know that it can be very disappointing... but I also know that when a door closes a window of opportunity opens and hopefully I'm choosing the right window to duck through.

Best Wishes,
Joseph

PS: Don't be strangers... I'll still be hanging around the forums when I need a break.
PPS: Also thanks to all who contributed your time and talents to this thread and project. I know it didn't turn out as hoped, but I deeply appreciate all your effort.

Modifié par Jaldaen, 21 janvier 2010 - 12:26 .

[Jaldecir]

mad_cat_prime wrote...

Ok, you don't see how being a Murder of a City Guard in Denerim would make travel through Denerim difficult to do, given that people know your face, probably have wanted posters, people know you are a Grey Warden...and you don't see how that makes going through Denerim difficult?

(unimportant note: as a Grey Warden being wanted by Loghain, people already know your face anyway regardless you kill a city guard or not)

I think you're confused about your own example. I'll quote it again

12. Dealing with the story of the City Elf, I came to a point where I
had a decision.  Now the goal of Dragon Age, is that decisions you make
have an echo effect.  That it will come back and you will find out if
the decision you made was the right one.  So when I met Vaughn in the
castle, he gave me a choice.  Now, this was not a fake decision, but
you are right that either decision I make, I will still be a Grey
Warden.  So if it is not a fake decision, what are the reprocussions?

Either A:  I take the 12 pieces of gold and let Vaughn rape one of the female elves and probably kill her.

Or B: Kill Vaughn.

Once
again, I'll become a GW either way.  But if I return to Denerim...if I
take option B, I will be a criminal, and travel will be harder for me

Basically what you're saying is:
+ Pick choice B: Kill Vaughan
+ Reprocussions: Become a criminal and harder to travel.

I simply don't understand what you're talking about because killing Vaughan doesn't make it for you harder to travel at all. Compared to any other origin, you being a criminal who killed Vaughan travels the same way. Not easier, not harder. Also about being a criminal, that's simply a technicality status. Whether you become a criminal or not, for your status, it has no relevance at all while playing the game. That's why I said fake choices because the reprocussion is simply non-existant. That's why I also asked you to provide another example using the Human Noble origin (which I assumed you've played judging from older post about wanting to search for Fergus) to show what are the choices and what are the reprocussions.

Now granted that there are choices in the origin part of the game that have reprocussions, but they are simply not important at all on a larger scale. The important ones are the ones that actually dealt with the main storyline (e.g.: picking to side with one over the other, saving Redcliffe or not, etc).

[mad_cat_prime]

Did I not say don't ruin the Elf story for me.



Look, I want this discussion done with. We've made our points, and we can either argue about it, and argue, in all respect, and probably come up nowhere, or just let it rest.

[JTerzin]

Jaldecir, I read your version of this story earlier this morning, and mad_cat_prime is right, in your version, there was a "youngest" and an "eldest" son. But overall, it's a wonderful story.



Jaldaen, I have read your entire thread this past week or 2, and I really love your ideas. Believe me when I say, "I am not a modder!" I just love playing with the mods that are given to us, free of charge that is, Perhaps you should release an Alpha version of this, and allow a select few people to "test" this mod. Of course, assuming people would flood this thread with all sorts of suggestions, bugs, etc.... I, for one, would be more than willing to test this mod, just to see if it works and makes sense.



Thanks for listening,

Your Fellow Dragon Age Player

[Lotion Soronarr]

Jaldaen wrote...
As for why I'm using the blood notes... they are a way of controlling people without the bloodmage being present. However, I am open to other suggestions b/c in truth the blood note is only needed to set-up the ending and I'd be fine with some other method being used as long as it made sense. Perhaps as Lotion says, I can simply make everything an obvious use of blood magic. After all, the blood mage could use her powers on the Bann before sending him to the Gnawed Noble Tavern. I'd assume that the more exposure you have to the blood mage's magic, the more potent her control would be... and if she was acting as a lover of the eldest son, then she'd also have access to the Bann at his estate.

Well, it's really easy to kill soemone if you're a blood mage. Wear normal clotihng, pretend you're a servant or a bar wench. With blood magic it's really easy. You can "convince" the taver owner that you're one of his workers. You go into the nobles room, get him under your control, kill him and walk out - who's gonna know? You can even influence people to forget they ever saw you. Technicly, you weren't there.
People either won't be able to conenct you with anything or they won't remeeber seeing you.

The only one a blood mage really fears to blow his/her cover are templars. If the quest in the alianage is anything to go by, they can detect strong usage of blood magic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

mad_cat_prime wrote...
10. The problem we have here, is distance and time.  We don't know either one.  Now the Templar is said to be getting the guards.  Now when I read that, I suspected that he was going to a local unit of guards, and not back to your partners father and Duncan.  Is duncan and the father just down the street?  Or are they on the other side of the kingdom.  How long does it take the Templar to go there and back?  And why address both of them to begin with?  If the father is there, he has better chance of cleaning things up to make this go away.  But if other guards arrest him, and state that they saw him doing the killing, hard to cover up other people's testimony (possible, but hard).  Now I understand for the Plot, we need Duncan to be there.  Perhaps Duncan conducts his own investigation and determines a different outcome, but no one will listen to him and thus recruits the PC anyways.

You make a good point here. The distance itslef is not a big problem - everything is inthe city, so I don't think the guard post is more than 15 minutes away.
Duncan being there howeever, is. He's not seen you fight, so he doesn't really know you're a great fighter. He has no reason to be there. You need a good reason.
Him investigating blood mages by himself also makes no sense. So how do we do it? We can have another templar, who is also investigating and might be an old friend of Ducan, aks Duncan for help.
It could be that Duncan and he arrive just before the guards.
Now either someone trustworthy tells them what happens. Who is alive at this point? The first templar, if he is dieing, might tell them before he bites it. Or your friend might.
Either way, the guards arive, the tempar/friend dies and you really got no witnesses now to clear your name - but Duncan would know.