229 réponses à ce sujet

[Captain_Obvious_au]

I'm playing an ME3 prep game, essentially using it to do things a bit differently and set up a New Game Plus. One of the things I did was betray my friend Wrex in order to gain the support of the Salarians. Now ordinarily my Shepard tells the Dalistrass to get stuffed, but as this is a prep game I thought I'd do it differently - and I think it's what Shepard should always do.

Okay Wrex becomes deadified, but he's a casulty of war and shows how dirty it has all become - why do I want to betray the Krogan though? Firstly the cure still exists, it's not like it's disappeared so it can always be used in the future (assuming there is one). Even if it can't be used, surely having the Krogan and the Salarian fleet available to defeat the Reapers is more important than the future of any one specieis. If we don't stop the Reapers, everyone dies.

I also liken this to an episode of Star Trek Deep Spane 9 called In the Pale Moonlight (a great episode) in which Captain Sisko does deeply unethical things to get the Romulan Star Empire into the war with the Dominion.

What does everyone else think. Is it okay to betray the Krogan in order to defeat the Reapers? (without metagaming of course)

[Pitznik]

Actually with Wrex and Bakara alive, it is better to not betray them, in terms of EMS - you will lose more than you gain. It also makes more sense - while Krogan are unstable bunch, if anyone is able to change their nature it is Wrex and Bakara. Strong willed, visionary individuals can change the nations/species, for good or bad. It is still a risk, but not as big as with Wreav.

In a more general sense, I believe that in war necessity makes things "okay". Like betraying the Krogan, or sacrificing the Geth.

[Ieldra]

My main Shepard does not believe the krogan will change enough. Even more, he believes that in the post-Reaper galaxy, hyperfertile krogan will be a significant threat to the galaxy. And lastly, he does not believe in anyone's right to have as many children as they want if that adversely affects the bigger picture.

So, yes, in my two main playthroughs the genophage cure gets sabotaged. I feel bad for the betrayal, and even worse for having to kill Mordin, but not at all for having the cure stopped. Once the war is over, and conditions have stabilized, I'd be willing to experiment with a gradual increase in krogan fertility, but not more than that.

[Transairion]

I don't understand your logic of "betraying the Krogan to win the war".

The Salarians are flipping useless, they don't send any meaningful help at all, to the point they literally do not have any visible ships in the final cutscenes. Meanwhile, save the krogan you have several million/billion/trillion foot soldiers.

Unless the Salaran War Asset in the betray option are grossly exaggerated, I can no possible way saving the Salarians over the Krogan could possibly win the war. Even if you get both, the Krogan are still infertile so you've basically got a finite number of them... instead of them pratically constantly replaced.

[JimJamBimBam]

I'll only betray the Krogan if it's Wreav in charge. It's hard enough shooting Mordin, but having to kill two of my favourite characters is way too much.

[DirtyPhoenix]

No cost is too big to stop the reapers, that's what I believe in. So it is justified if you think that way. Almost anything is, in war times.

That said, my main Shepard decided to cure the Genophage because as Wiks says, we cannot condemn an entire species based on what "might" happen. So I cured it, just hoping Wrex and Eve will survive long enough to catalyze a mindset change in the Krogan. And I was happy as a kid to see Wreav being eaten by Maww. Bad people being taken by mother nature is a sure sign I'm on the right path.

And with Wreav incharge, its a no brainer. He openly states his plans are to seek revenge. No point curing it. Also he is as smart as a brick and would never detect the sabotage, so win-win!

Modifié par pirate1802, 12 septembre 2012 - 11:33 .

[DAFerelden91]

I can't doom the entire species because of the uncertainties that none of us could predict. Sure, Krogan is an outrageous, ferocious and unstable species which MIGHT threaten the galaxy when Reapers are gotten rid off, but there are also possibilities that their hard-edged might be softened due to the unity of the entire galaxy.

[tholloway93]

betrayed them on a renegade femshep play, but it was wreav and he was too stupid to know anyway

[vixvicco]

DAFerelden91 wrote...

I can't doom the entire species because of the uncertainties that none of us could predict. Sure, Krogan is an outrageous, ferocious and unstable species which MIGHT threaten the galaxy when Reapers are gotten rid off, but there are also possibilities that their hard-edged might be softened due to the unity of the entire galaxy.

[MattFini]

I could never, ever betray Wrex. No matter how renegade my Shepard might be.

Can't.

[AngryFrozenWater]

I rather leave betrayal to the Intelligence. It seems to be good at it.

[DirtyPhoenix]

MattFini wrote...

I could never, ever betray Wrex. No matter how renegade my Shepard might be.

Can't.

I'm bracing myself to do that. May the Goddess grant me strength.

[Yuqi]

pirate1802 wrote...

MattFini wrote...

I could never, ever betray Wrex. No matter how renegade my Shepard might be.

Can't.

I'm bracing myself to do that. May the Goddess grant me strength.

It's fun, and the writing for it is great.:devil:

[shodiswe]

Transairion wrote...

I don't understand your logic of "betraying the Krogan to win the war".

The Salarians are flipping useless, they don't send any meaningful help at all, to the point they literally do not have any visible ships in the final cutscenes. Meanwhile, save the krogan you have several million/billion/trillion foot soldiers.

Unless the Salaran War Asset in the betray option are grossly exaggerated, I can no possible way saving the Salarians over the Krogan could possibly win the war. Even if you get both, the Krogan are still infertile so you've basically got a finite number of them... instead of them pratically constantly replaced.

Their fertility rate wont affect the wareffort, it takes time for krogans to grow up just like it would take time for humans to get born and evolve into beign able to hold a gun.... The genophage cure wotn affect the amount of able Krogans, but it will affect their willingness to fight and build a new future, free of the Reapers.

I usualy cure the genophage since it seems like the right thing to do, but at the same time  think it's wise to keep population number undercheck... It's better to have a happy healthy population than one that crashes an ecosystem and causes 90% of the population to starve and start rampant wars to feed themselves, fighting over the last few resources available. (guanobased ferilizers are a finite resource, once it runs out a very large part of the worlds farming will become infertile and won't be able to grow the crops it used to, in some cases you might be able to grow something else in other cases it will become a barren desertlike landscape. The fish population in the oceans will eventualy be too low to sustain commercial fishing, eventualy crude oil will becoem a scarese commodity however it will liekly last longer than Guano and fishing and thus fuel the engines of war over the finite resources needed for basic human survival)

Humanity in reallife will likely face this in a few decades, lets see how it goes, so I sympatize with the Krogans, it won't be easy.  The Salarians got strikt population control to avoid this kind of events, they are also one of the most sucessful specis in the ME universe.
The Krogan, well, they might get a few more planets to collonize, populate and eventualy ravage unless they learn to adapt to the lower deathrates provided by modern society.
The Krogans birthrates was originaly adapted to the dangerous fauna of their homeworld that claiemd a lot of Krogans and keept the population undercontrol, until that was no longer sufficient to control their numbers due to technology and lower deathrates.

Modifié par shodiswe, 12 septembre 2012 - 12:03 .

[tanisha__unknown]

I did it with my renegade Shep, but not exactly for support. Wrex is sensible, Eve is sensible, but the rest of the Krogans are bloodthirsty brutes which will most likely overrun the galaxy after the Reapers are beaten. Wrex may get assassinated, so does Eve and even if they aren't: a Krogan lives for around 350 years. Assuming that Wrex is not exactly young, that's probably another 100-200 years of peace if he stays leader. Thereafter the galaxy will regret having helped the Krogan.

However it was a very bitter playthrough: Wrex didn't trust me since I did not save Maelon's data, I had to kill Mordin and finally Wrex.

[Wulfram]

Well, the support of a Great Power with massive scientific expertise, a top of the line fleet and a well equipped army is certainly far more valuable to the war effort than a single backwards planet.

But the risk of getting caught in these sort of operations is very real and should be taken into account. Building an alliance on lies and deception is dangerous, and discovery risks harming cooperation with everyone, not just with the Krogan.

[LilLino]

As good as Tuchanka missions are and as much as I love Wrex. I hate the Krogan arc. Why? Because it looks as if Wrex and Bakara are the only 2 Krogan alive who aren't total morons.

What I also hate is that Urdnot suddenly rises and represents all Tuchanka(which makes little sense when Wreave is in power, he's a moron), but when there's a LONE Reaper on WHOLE planet standing in the way of the Genophage Cure they deploy like 7 trucks against it. Krogan Power?
It's ridiculous really >.<

But yes, I agree, when there's idiot in charge it makes no sense to help them. With both Wrex and Eve though, I couldn't betray my friends, I believe they'll make things right and it happens as shown by Extended Cut slides. So OP can kiss my ass.

[Jadebaby]

Without metagaming, yes It's okay to betray the Krogan, however it doesn't make sense because they are the more powerful ally.

Also with metagaming, if you save Wrex in ME1 and save the Salarian councillor in ME1 also. You can gain both the Krogan and Salarian support with a message from Hackett saying "STG knows the score, they aren't going to get all uppity over a dalatrass' personal grudge." or something to that effect.

[DecCylonus]

I find the Dalistrass and her proposal to be repulsive. She sees the Krogan as nothing but tools to be used and thrown away when no longer convenient. To me, that is a clue about how she would behave in an alliance. My Shepard figures she might fight with us, but she would screw us to preserve Salarian interests. She's not the kind of ally I want watching my back. Wrex, on the other hand, has always dealt honorably with Shepard. If my goal is to build a strong alliance to fight the Reapers, I know who I want in it.

Furthermore, the Dalistrass is a fool. She threatens to withold her support if you cure the genophage (and does if you go through with it). She clearly doesn't understand the Reaper threat, or else she is so committed to keeping the Krogan down that she doesn't care. Either way her position is incredibly stupid. She is acting like a child and playing politics with the fate of her species and everyone else to boot. If my Shepard has to choose between the unstable Krogan and the Salarians who are willing to risk us all to preserve a centuries-old mistake, the choice is obvious. Besides, Shepard has it on good authority that STG supports him/her, which is the best part of Salarian forces anyway. I'll take them plus a Krogan army over the divisive, foolish Dalistrass any day.

[DirtyPhoenix]

LilLino wrote...

As good as Tuchanka missions are and as much as I love Wrex. I hate the Krogan arc. Why? Because it looks as if Wrex and Bakara are the only 2 Krogan alive who aren't total morons.

What I also hate is that Urdnot suddenly rises and represents all Tuchanka(which makes little sense when Wreave is in power, he's a moron), but when there's a LONE Reaper on WHOLE planet standing in the way of the Genophage Cure they deploy like 7 trucks against it. Krogan Power?
It's ridiculous really >.<

But yes, I agree, when there's idiot in charge it makes no sense to help them. With both Wrex and Eve though, I couldn't betray my friends, I believe they'll make things right and it happens as shown by Extended Cut slides. So OP can kiss my ass.

Makes sense. Remember what Bakara calls Wrex? A mutant. It's not in their nature to cooperate with each other. And I think the Urdnot's rise to power was described in ME2, because of his liberal policies he was able to make allies and expand his power.

But yeah, deploying 7 trucks and some fighters against a reaper was moronic lol.

[Wulfram]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Without metagaming, yes It's okay to betray the Krogan, however it doesn't make sense because they are the more powerful ally.

The Krogan are Space Somalia, the Salarians are Space Japan.  Space Japan is logically far more powerful

Also with metagaming, if you save Wrex in ME1 and save the Salarian councillor in ME1 also. You can gain both the Krogan and Salarian support with a message from Hackett saying "STG knows the score, they aren't going to get all uppity over a dalatrass' personal grudge." or something to that effect.

You get some support without the Dalatress, but not the full support

Modifié par Wulfram, 12 septembre 2012 - 12:35 .

[spirosz]

No.

[DDG4005]

I can't betray Wrex.  He's a great character and wants what's best for the Krogan.  I'd prefer to cure the genophage than give the Dalatrass what she wants.  And as it has already been stated the Extended Cut scenes show the Krogan rebuilding Tuchanka not devastating other races after the Reaper war.

[Galbrant]

DecCylonus wrote...

I find the Dalistrass and her proposal to be repulsive. She sees the Krogan as nothing but tools to be used and thrown away when no longer convenient. To me, that is a clue about how she would behave in an alliance. My Shepard figures she might fight with us, but she would screw us to preserve Salarian interests. She's not the kind of ally I want watching my back. Wrex, on the other hand, has always dealt honorably with Shepard. If my goal is to build a strong alliance to fight the Reapers, I know who I want in it.

Furthermore, the Dalistrass is a fool. She threatens to withold her support if you cure the genophage (and does if you go through with it). She clearly doesn't understand the Reaper threat, or else she is so committed to keeping the Krogan down that she doesn't care. Either way her position is incredibly stupid. She is acting like a child and playing politics with the fate of her species and everyone else to boot. If my Shepard has to choose between the unstable Krogan and the Salarians who are willing to risk us all to preserve a centuries-old mistake, the choice is obvious. Besides, Shepard has it on good authority that STG supports him/her, which is the best part of Salarian forces anyway. I'll take them plus a Krogan army over the divisive, foolish Dalistrass any day.

Well said.

The Protheans lasted for centuries  I think curing the genophage was the right idea The Krogan have insane birthrates, mature faster and live a hell of a long time. Perfect cannon fodder. And they are not the only ones with insane birth rates... there are the Rachni who can develop countless weapons of mass destructions. Just hand a Thanix cannon to the Queen I'm sure she'll upgrade it to extend it's range so ships wouldn't have to get too close the Reapers. And then there are the Salarians, the only reason they aren't so many of them are because of their social laws. Revoke those laws it is a fight for the galaxy. Salarians  mature around age 12 and I think Mordin's nephew graduated that age.....  I honestly believe that Salarians, Krogan, and Rachni 
mitigate   the loss of numbers for the war effort.  

After the war against the Reapers, if the Krogan return to their old ways... well we did faced worse... and they have to face the rest of the Galaxy including their old foe the Rachni... I don't think they can handle that.  After all we're the ones with the ships. 

[MB957]

My shep cures that bad boy! wrex is a friend, and we need all the friends we got to beat the reapers!!

thats the way I like to play thru...lol!