229 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Give the Krogans a decade of unrestricted breeding

And you'll probably get a lot of not-yet-fully-developed untrained krogan children. Curing the genophage does not mean letting them run wild again - it's always possible to kill them (e.g. Via orbital bombardment since they are sitting ducks without any fleets) but this may be the only chance to cure them *and* to secure crucial resources for the Crucible construction (Hacket says that we need the Turian fleet, who in turn want krogan infantry and we have no way of knowing if salerian fleets you are offered by the dalatrass can be substituted)

The numbers at the end of the decade aren't for the war, but rather the population base to support industry, economy, and the other basis of power (which do, more time later, include troops).

Saying that we can always go back and kill them later from orbit presupposes that the Krogan will keep their current strength now when they're a couple dozen billion larger. Given the time (and the population to support it), they can build fleets and defenses to deter attack while they build up... unless you intend to demand the Krogan remain demilitarized, and periodically raze the planet from space whenever their industry starts to pick up.

Once the genophage is cured, the established status quo or relative sizes and potential power go out the window. It won't (likely) be a facet of the next decade, but without an equivalent growth rival the Krogan can and, unless stopped, will continue to grow, expand, and populate until they have the mass to defeat others. The longer the peace holds out, the greater the mismatch when conflicts occur.

[Vigilant111]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Give the Krogans a decade of unrestricted breeding

And you'll probably get a lot of not-yet-fully-developed untrained krogan children. Curing the genophage does not mean letting them run wild again - it's always possible to kill them (e.g. Via orbital bombardment since they are sitting ducks without any fleets) but this may be the only chance to cure them *and* to secure crucial resources for the Crucible construction (Hacket says that we need the Turian fleet, who in turn want krogan infantry and we have no way of knowing if salerian fleets you are offered by the dalatrass can be substituted)

The numbers at the end of the decade aren't for the war, but rather the population base to support industry, economy, and the other basis of power (which do, more time later, include troops).

Saying that we can always go back and kill them later from orbit presupposes that the Krogan will keep their current strength now when they're a couple dozen billion larger. Given the time (and the population to support it), they can build fleets and defenses to deter attack while they build up... unless you intend to demand the Krogan remain demilitarized, and periodically raze the planet from space whenever their industry starts to pick up.

Once the genophage is cured, the established status quo or relative sizes and potential power go out the window. It won't (likely) be a facet of the next decade, but without an equivalent growth rival the Krogan can and, unless stopped, will continue to grow, expand, and populate until they have the mass to defeat others. The longer the peace holds out, the greater the mismatch when conflicts occur.

...and so history repeats itself if the Krogans do not learn they have been given a second and possibly the final chance. Sure, cure the genophage now, u can always re-introduce it later. The krogans have got to know that they pose a threat to galactic society, and when people are threathened, they do drastic things

[Morlath]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Morlath wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

]Incorrect: don't cure all Krogan until all Krogan change. Feel free* to cure Krogan who have changed to acceptable norms.

*Within contexts that aren't going to **** on others.
[/quote]

In other words only cure the Krogan that you like or are "worthy"? The rest can continue to suffer the Genophage.

That's a eugenics argument if I ever heard one.[/quote

]Then you've never heard one. Eugenics is a field of genetic (real and imagined) favoritism, not cultural.
[/quote]

And many with that mindset believe it's possible to bred in/out aggressive (or any other type) of behaviour from a people. Eugenics comes down to removing unfavourable aspects of a species so that someone's idea of what makes a better society can come out ahead.

[quote]
You would when the potential actions of an extremist group are catastrophic... and the extremist group isn't actually considered extremist. The 'moderates' are the mavericks and radicals, not the norm.

The funny thing about the Mass Effect universe is that all species are not created equal. They don't have the same abilities, they don't have the same mindsets, and they don't have the same potential for devastation.

The more you try to create an equivalence between the Krogan and, well, anyone else you've tried (Humans, Volus, Quarians), the more you overlook the fact that these species have different potential strengths and capabilities. Give the Quarians, or the Humans, or just about everyone else a decade of unrestricted breeding... and they'll be only somewhat larger than they were at the start of the decade. Maybe double, if you're generous. Give the Krogans a decade of unrestricted breeding, and you can potentially fill a few homeworlds worth of new lives. What the Krogan can do with their numbers is on a completely different level than what any other organic species (bar the Rachni) can do. There is a real difference in capability, and differences in capabilities are what make differing expectations and tolerances for people and groups. There is no one-size-fits-all criteria.

[/quote]

And you're right but this is not a valid reason to externally control a species' birth rate just because you don't like the potential outcome.

Mordin himself in ME2 makes mention of the moral issues of the Genophage and he firmly stands by the decision to use it. It may be a sound tactical weapon but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do or the right thing to allow to continue.

[Morlath]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]Then you've never heard one. Eugenics is a field of genetic (real and imagined) favoritism, not cultural.

And many with that mindset believe it's possible to bred in/out aggressive (or any other type) of behaviour from a people. Eugenics comes down to removing unfavourable aspects of a species so that someone's idea of what makes a better society can come out ahead.

You would when the potential actions of an extremist group are catastrophic... and the extremist group isn't actually considered extremist. The 'moderates' are the mavericks and radicals, not the norm.

The funny thing about the Mass Effect universe is that all species are not created equal. They don't have the same abilities, they don't have the same mindsets, and they don't have the same potential for devastation.

The more you try to create an equivalence between the Krogan and, well, anyone else you've tried (Humans, Volus, Quarians), the more you overlook the fact that these species have different potential strengths and capabilities. Give the Quarians, or the Humans, or just about everyone else a decade of unrestricted breeding... and they'll be only somewhat larger than they were at the start of the decade. Maybe double, if you're generous. Give the Krogans a decade of unrestricted breeding, and you can potentially fill a few homeworlds worth of new lives. What the Krogan can do with their numbers is on a completely different level than what any other organic species (bar the Rachni) can do. There is a real difference in capability, and differences in capabilities are what make differing expectations and tolerances for people and groups. There is no one-size-fits-all criteria.

And you're right but this is not a valid reason to externally control a species' birth rate just because you don't like the potential outcome.

Mordin himself in ME2 makes mention of the moral issues of the Genophage and he firmly stands by the decision to use it. It may be a sound tactical weapon but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do or the right thing to allow to continue.

Modifié par Morlath, 07 mai 2013 - 05:37 .

[Bardox9]

The Genophage was meant to force a sociological shift in the Krogan since they refused to do so on their own. Their high birth rate made their population unsustainable. Instead of reducing the number of births they expanded out of control. The Genophage was never meant to be a punishment. It was meant to create a mind set like Wrex's. Focus less on domination of the galaxy and more on making a sustainable population.

In ME1 Wrex even explains his reasoning for being against going to war with the rest of the Galaxy. "We don't have the numbers to goto war. And even if we did, the Genophage made sure we couldn't replenish our numbers fast enough." Wrex is the direct, and most likely desired, effect of the genophage. His ideas in ME2 will lead to a better future for the krogan and the galaxy as a whole. The other clans only follow his lead because of the genophage. Without it his plans are worthless and his power base crumbles.

For those continuing to believe that Eve will get all 2 billion females to snap their legs together if the males push for galactic war, keep in mind that for 1,400 years their entire existance was to try and make babies and not get kidnapped in a raid. Now you want to tell them "You are now able to give birth. That which has been causing your still borns and miscarages is gone.... but you are not allowed to have children because our men are stupid." Does anyone really think the males are the only ones that want revenge??

All things considered, the Genophage was the right call then and maintaining it is the right call now.