229 réponses à ce sujet

[Red Dust]

Betraying the Krogan is the right thing to do because the scene with Mordin and later Wrex on the citadel has a thousand times more emotional impact. "I made a mistake!", some really great line delivery.

Same answer for Legion and the Geth, except the Geth made themselves Reaper minions, so destroying them is the best and only solution.

Modifié par Red Dust, 12 septembre 2012 - 01:15 .

[Hrothdane]

I am incapable of betraying Wrex, Bakara, and Mordin.

I can't click the option to tell them about the Dalatrass's scheme fast enough.

On a macro level, the krogan have suffered the the genophage long enough. They are ready for a second chance united under Wrex and Bakara.

[PrimeOfValor]

Only if Wreav is in charge.

[Daxamite]

i was happy enough to betray wreav, but i think i'd have problems betraying wrex. Im actually starting a new ME2 playthrough now, ive NEVER deleted maelon's data in any previous playthroughs before so maybe i'll do that this time and see how it affects the krogan story with wrex alive and then betray both mordin and wrex, gonna be a wrenching tale to watch

[EricHVela]

I need the Krogan and Rachni to fight the Leviathan thingies. We'll neuter/exterminate them if necessary after, but I think a bit of education in contraception might prevent that.

[JigOS]

I cured the genophage, but with serious misgivings along the way. From a pragmatic point of view, I think the better decision was to not cure the genophage. Restoring Krogan birthrates is a short-sighted move imo. Their violent nature in combination with their natural birthrates is a volatile combination, and the kicker is, the result as been straight up proven in the Krogan Rebellions. We'd be trading one galactic threat for another.

But I saved the Krogan - the decision was a result of my empathy getting in the way, and my friendship with Wrex. Usually, this wouldn't be a bad thing, but this is war, with everyone's extinction in the balance. You have to be able to make the hard decisions. I consider this a failing on my part.

I applaud the writing in this part of the game, for creating this inner conflict in me, the player, so well. This is one of those gems of gaming moments, where the conflicts you're presented with and the choices you make, make you learn things about yourself.

But while playing this sequence, I really wished there was a different way to go about the decisions. The only way to deny the Krogan is to be a murderous lying dick. I really wanted to be able to talk to Wrex instead and tell him that the Dalatrass asked me to lie to him. That I wouldn't do that to him, but that I agree with her. I sympathize with the Krogan, but that I can't risk another Krogan Rebellion; trading one galactic threat for another Tell him we need his help, but it's going to have to be the way it is now. And if that means the end of our friendship then so be it, but the threat of the Reapers go beyond us, or even the Krogan, or Salarians.

I think having the above option, with the result of breaking the friendship with Wrex (along with him agreeing to send the Krogan or not, depending on previous choices and whatnot), would have really added to the game.

Modifié par JigOS, 12 septembre 2012 - 01:50 .

[Daxamite]

nice post, JigOs. I guess that would have been too many extra story options for them to cope with.

I'm not entirely convinced that even with Wrex and Batara, that the Krogan will stay peaceful. By and large, almost all krogans that you meet are agressive and xenophobic, although maybe that's because of having to live with the genophage has inflicted this on their culture. With Bakara, maybe the females will get more involved and be more forward thinking. Alternatively, the females might simply make the krogan even more dangerous and sneaky.

There's simply no way to know. At least there's the slim possibility of hope and progress with the krogans on your side. Without them, we are all facing extinction (and worse, reaperisation). At least the krogans can be understood, fought, resisted, and if necessary killed with a new bio weapon. The Reapers are vastly superior enemies and need to be prioritised.

Is it ok to trick the krogans into fighting? I'm not sure. To save merely myself, or even merely humanity, I woudl say no. But it's not just humans, it's all current species and all future species that will ever evolve that we are trying to save from the reapers, so i guess i would reluctantly support it. It differs from the example mentioned from Star trek ds9 - at least under dominion occupation there is hope of survival, resistance. but with the reapers, there is no hope or negotiating at all/

[dirty console peasant]

Jinx1720 wrote...

I did it with my renegade Shep, but not exactly for support. Wrex is sensible, Eve is sensible, but the rest of the Krogans are bloodthirsty brutes which will most likely overrun the galaxy after the Reapers are beaten. Wrex may get assassinated, so does Eve and even if they aren't: a Krogan lives for around 350 years. Assuming that Wrex is not exactly young, that's probably another 100-200 years of peace if he stays leader. Thereafter the galaxy will regret having helped the Krogan.

However it was a very bitter playthrough: Wrex didn't trust me since I did not save Maelon's data, I had to kill Mordin and finally Wrex.

krogan actually live for over 1000 years (remember Liara's dad on Illium with her comment that both parents were approaching 1000 when they killed each other, also the krogan poets girlfriend made a comment like "its not like a human where you can just wait for them to die":pinched:

Edit: to OP if wrex is dead then you are right, but if he is alive you get more war assets by curing the genophage, also he has quite a few years left on him and Eve is going to be quite helpful as well.

Modifié par Shepard Cmdr, 12 septembre 2012 - 02:28 .

[JeffZero]

Nice DS9 shout-out.

[SeptimusMagistos]

JigOS wrote...

But while playing this sequence, I really wished there was a different way to go about the decisions. The only way to deny the Krogan is to be a murderous lying dick. I really wanted to be able to talk to Wrex instead and tell him that the Dalatrass asked me to lie to him. That I wouldn't do that to him, but that I agree with her. I sympathize with the Krogan, but that I can't risk another Krogan Rebellion; trading one galactic threat for another Tell him we need his help, but it's going to have to be the way it is now. And if that means the end of our friendship then so be it, but the threat of the Reapers go beyond us, or even the Krogan, or Salarians.

Do you seriously think it would be possible to have that conversation with Wrex in a way that didn't end with him pulling a gun on you and ordering you to stay out of his way?

I happen to agree with him on this one. If the galaxy wants the krogan to help them, then the galaxy has to stop treating them like tools and start treating them like people. You don't get to throw them at the Reapers and then decide what their fertility levels should be. That's not up to you, the Salarians or the Turians.

Honestly, each time the Dalatrass tried to present the Krogans as tools I've regretted the fact that Shepard couldn't just shoot her.

[Cassandra Saturn]

i cured them and i lose Mordin in the process, my friendship with Wrex is very stronger, i told the others about that scheme, Wrex said "hah, i told you we can trust Shepard." however, i do believe by curing them the Krogan would not start other Krogan Rebellion because of Shepard's actions that inspired Generations of Alliance be better and more trustworthy of each other. you see, it was Shepard who first allowed Aliens to board Normandy, and he's the First Human Spectre who actually kept and upheld the Law on many occasions. he has even Saved the Citadel Council for three times. for example, he resolved the 4 warring factions and united 4 warring factions in ME3. he would do things that no man has ever done. and that's His Legacy, the Shepard Legacy.  

Modifié par superblaze1, 12 septembre 2012 - 02:35 .

[AlanC9]

The krogan aren't an immediate threat even with the genophage cured. They don't have a space fleet, and without much of an industrial base they aren't going to have one anytime soon. There's time to work out some sort of containment policy if things go bad there, so if Shep really wants to do he right thing he's not risking disaster in the short term.

As for the choice, the hard one for me is with only one of Wrex and Bakara alive.

[Red Dust]

Also love the dialog with Garrus if you choose to betray the Wrex/Eve/Mordin. Overall it's the more entertaining option.

[Chardonney]

MattFini wrote...

I could never, ever betray Wrex. No matter how renegade my Shepard might be.

Can't.

Same here. Betrayal is not an option, when it comes to Wrex. 

[zwabbit]

To all the people who are claiming that we cannot predict whether the krogan will turn on the galaxy again, the EC (regardless of whether you hate it or love it) strong implies that they learn to co-exist with the rest of the galaxy in the synthesis ending and you bloody control the Reapers in the control ending and thus could act as a check if need be. The only one where you might have problems is with destroy and with Wreav in charge of a cured race. So unless you have Wreav, and cured the genophage, and let Bakara die, and chose destroy, Bioware seems very determined to hint that the majority of Krogans become peacefully integrated. If your position is those "hints" are not enough, then it makes me wonder whether you actually paid attention or were ever invested in the development of characters like Wrex, Mordin, and Bakara.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I just find it more than a little evil and reprehensible to ask an entire species of sapient beings to fight and die to save other species' planets and then deliberately lie about saving them from the effects of what is, essentially, biological warfare.

[JBPBRC]

I don't believe betraying the Krogan is the right thing to do. We're flat-out told that the Salarians are mostly ineffective in the war effort, as they prefer the art of subterfuge and black ops, not full-scale war. Those things have their place in war of course, but having a warrior culture on your side that is literally bred to fight can go a long way against the numerous cannon fodder husks.

Having a Krogan threat that *may* threaten the galaxy in the future is a guaranteed better alternative to having a bunch of synthetic cuttlefish puree all life right now.

I do disagree with how the majority of Krogan are portrayed, alas, as Bioware seems to want to have them out-Klingon the Klingons (like when they all snarl at each other before Eve breaks it up)

Modifié par JBPBRC, 12 septembre 2012 - 04:04 .

[Wulfram]

JBPBRC wrote...

I don't believe betraying the Krogan is the right thing to do. We're flat-out told that the Salarians are mostly ineffective in the war effort, as they prefer the art of subterfuge and black ops, not full-scale war. Those things have their place in war of course, but having a warrior culture on your side that is literally bred to fight can go a long way against the numerous cannon fodder husks.

The Salarians have twice as many Dreadnoughts as the alliance.  These are not for subterfuge and black ops.  The Krogan do not have any warships
The Salarians armed forces operate under a similar doctrine to the Alliance.  Just with more willingness to shoot first.
The Crucible is a scientific project, and the Salarians are supreme scientists.
Having a Warrior culture is irrelevant compared to having the equipment and the training to use it
And finally, there's just a whole lot more Salarians than Krogan.

[Gewehr_fr]

It's the right thing to do if you killed Wrex back in ME1 and Eve dies because you destroyed Maelon's data.

It's WRONG if Wrex is alive no matter what, I trust him more than anyone else to lead his people on the right way.

It gets more complicated if Eve stays alive but Wrex is dead and replaced by Wreav.

Modifié par Gewehr_fr, 12 septembre 2012 - 04:41 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

Transairion wrote...

I don't understand your logic of "betraying the Krogan to win the war".

The Salarians are flipping useless, they don't send any meaningful help at all, to the point they literally do not have any visible ships in the final cutscenes. Meanwhile, save the krogan you have several million/billion/trillion foot soldiers.

To me, this is a failing of the "War Assets" system. Salarians and their ~150 EMS from sabotaging the cure is just an awful trade for what the krogan give you.

This could have been amended so that War Assets were broken up into three groups: Hammer (ground forces), Sword (air force), and Crucible (building it). The trade would be a big boost to Hammer and nothing else vs. a marginal Hammer boost along with decent Sword and Crucible boost. THAT makes it a decision, on a meta level.

The end also shouldn't have been dependent on total EMS but how well you covered all these bases.

[AlanC9]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
To me, this is a failing of the "War Assets" system. Salarians and their ~150 EMS from sabotaging the cure is just an awful trade for what the krogan give you.

Well, the plan is to get both the krogan and the salarian forces, not trade off one for the other. Though I agree with the general point .

You'd need to rebalance WA points somewhat, since the vast majority of Crucible points come from scanning and sidequests. And I'm not really sure how to integrate the different point scores, especially ground.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 septembre 2012 - 05:44 .

[GreyReaver]

The olde, "Ends Justify The Means" argument. IMO IRL never acceptable. In-Game, there is always an exception to the rule and if it is Wreav, i'll do it every time.

[-Skorpious-]

If Wrex is in charge, betraying the Krogan is an absolutely stupid idea. Sure, the Dalatrass will get upset, but she isn't stupid - she might protest for a month at most, but she won't sit on her hands and purposely let the entire galaxy burn out of spite.

But the Krogans will. After all, why would they support a man/woman who betrayed their entire race to appease those who developed the mutation that basically destroyed their race? The truth would probably push most Krogan past the point of hoping for a future and into an unstoppable, perpetual blood-rage against Sur'Kesh and the Salarians; an event that would lead to the Salarians becoming even more reclusive.

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 12 septembre 2012 - 06:12 .

[Reorte]

I barely trust the krogan with Wrex in charge and if it wasn't for the Reapers they wouldn't get the cure. As it is pragmatism says the Reaper threat needs dealing with and we need the krogan on our side for that.

[Pitznik]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

To me, this is a failing of the "War Assets" system. Salarians and their ~150 EMS from sabotaging the cure is just an awful trade for what the krogan give you.

In pure EMS it is, from best to worst:

(I skip the assets you get always, no matter what path you choose, and note only differences:)

Wreav's Krogan (sabotaged)  +150 or +125 total to base number (+150 Salarian First Fleet, with data saved and Mordin dead, in other case it is - 50 for Eve but + 25 for Mordin)

Wrex' Krogan (data saved) +80 total to base number (5 from Wreav/Wrex difference and 75 for Mercenaries, 0 from Salarians)

Wreav's Krogan (cured) 0  (no Wrex bonuses, no Salarians)

Wrex' Krogan (sabotaged) -180 total to base number, you don't really want to do that unless you're RPing ( - 30 dead Wrex, - 300 Clan Urdnot, + 150 Salarian First Fleet) (with saved data, with data destroyed it is even 25 less)

Modifié par Pitznik, 12 septembre 2012 - 07:28 .