229 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

Obadiah wrote...

The Genophage is just ****ed up "solution" to begin with. Basically is forces to Krogan to behave a certain way (endlessly trying to procreate) to maintain their numbers, whereas beaten, at least they could have learned to adjust their behavior to survive peacefully in the wider galactic environment.

Oh, there will be just too much chaos after the war to trust the Krogan? Isn't that a license for every party to sabotage their enemies so they don't get "out of hand" in the chaos?

I'm just not interested in being a party to the genophage.

the threat of extinction is what eventually united the galaxy.. seems like there'd be a better way to do that..

[Wayning_Star]

Note: it's never said in lore, but that for the buried city that the Krogan weren't always reactionary. Hidden potential. I wonder if the genophage didn't 'dumb' them down as well?

[SinerAthin]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I saved them and the Rachni, but this whole discussion is reflective of
destroying the Geth and Edi because they're a 'possible' threat,

We're living in an universe of possibilities where nothing is certain.

Wayning_Star wrote...
Saving them from Mordin's folly was a way to help Mordin as well, as his race, who eventually regret their hand in the genophage. Made sure that Grunt, Wrex and Eve all made it, so I could mostly depend on the Krogan to not be so..well. Krogan. Having the rachni queen helps make them look before they might jump as well. They, most likely won't make the same mistakes they did the last time, now that their 'songs' are in harmony.(and they sing to Shepard, all good.)

But all that still doesn't explain why we should cure the Krogan now, not later.

To put it simply:
- If we cure them now, and they rebel: we are in big trouble.
- If we wait and rebuild our armies, and then cure them, we can deal with any situation, and the krogan are less likely to rebel due to our superior forces.

Assume that your goal is to help the Krogan, but option number 2 is by far the safest one, why pick number 1?

Why throw a coin and pray for tails when you can wait and do it the safe way?
When dealing with unknowns, it should be natural to pick the choice with the highest chance of success.

Modifié par SinerAthin, 02 mai 2013 - 02:07 .

[remydat]

SinerAthin,

Do you honestly think you can keep the fact that you sabotaged the cure a secret for this hypothetical 100-200 years? How does this work, "hey guys don't be mad that we used you as cannon fodder to get Turian support and then looked you in the eye while stabbing you in the back and sabotaged the cure so that millions of your babies could continue to be born stillborn. But aside from that, you can trust us."

I guess we should just ignore Eve when she tells us not to judge all Krogan by Wreav or when she says most females will resist his desire for revenge? Nope can't trust her when she says they will refuse to have children or that there will be civil war if he tries.

And I guess we can't allow females to shape the future like ancient times now that they are cured like Eve says because we all know women should not be allowed to decide what happens to their bodies, their children or be involved in shaping the future of their species. And guess she is lying about how the genophage turned the males in wandering killers seeking targets to justify their existence.

Modifié par remydat, 02 mai 2013 - 02:48 .

[SinerAthin]

remydat wrote...

SinerAthin,

Do you honestly think you can keep the fact that you sabotaged the cure a secret for this hypothetical 100-200 years?

Where did I say that?

Stop drawing false assumptions.

remydat wrote...
How does this work, "hey guys don't be mad that we used you as cannon fodder to get Turian support and then looked you in the eye while stabbing you in the back and sabotaged the cure so that millions of your babies could continue to be born stillborn. But aside from that, you can trust us."

I guess we should just ignore Eve when she tells us not to judge all Krogan by Wreav or when she says most females will resist his desire for revenge? Nope can't trust her when she says they will refuse to have children or that there will be civil war if he tries.

And I guess we can't allow females to shape the future like ancient times now that they are cured like Eve says because we all know women should not be allowed to decide what happens to their bodies, their children or be involved in shaping the future of their species. And guess she is lying about how the genophage turned the males in wandering killers seeking targets to justify their existence.

It seems you missed the point of my post. I'm talking about managing risks and chances.

Let's look at two options, both whom will end with the Krogan being cured.

Option 1: Cure them now. If they comply and follow Citadel regulations, everything will be fine. But if they don't, what's our plan B? What are we going to do if the Krogan DON'T comply and the galaxy is already in chaos?

Option 2: Wait a few centuries, rebuild our society/forces, and then offer to cure the genophage and let the Krogan develope under supervision. If the Krogan comply everything will be all fine and dandy, and if they don't, we have the military resources required to fix that.


One option is far more safer than the other. By picking 1 you are needlessly gambling with the safety of the entire galaxy, which is an impulsive and reckless decision.

Modifié par SinerAthin, 02 mai 2013 - 02:59 .

[Wayning_Star]

SinerAthin wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I saved them and the Rachni, but this whole discussion is reflective of
destroying the Geth and Edi because they're a 'possible' threat,

We're living in an universe of possibilities where nothing is certain.

Wayning_Star wrote...
Saving them from Mordin's folly was a way to help Mordin as well, as his race, who eventually regret their hand in the genophage. Made sure that Grunt, Wrex and Eve all made it, so I could mostly depend on the Krogan to not be so..well. Krogan. Having the rachni queen helps make them look before they might jump as well. They, most likely won't make the same mistakes they did the last time, now that their 'songs' are in harmony.(and they sing to Shepard, all good.)

But all that still doesn't explain why we should cure the Krogan now, not later.

To put it simply:
- If we cure them now, and they rebel: we are in big trouble.
- If we wait and rebuild our armies, and then cure them, we can deal with any situation, and the krogan are less likely to rebel due to our superior forces.

Assume that your goal is to help the Krogan, but option number 2 is by far the safest one, why pick number 1?

Why throw a coin and pray for tails when you can wait and do it the safe way?
When dealing with unknowns, it should be natural to pick the choice with the highest chance of success.

If all things MEU are uncertain, then betting ON the Krogan and not betraying them again like they did last time, just after they fought back the hostile Rachni, seems to make us look worse for wear as those who designed the genophage? The Krogan are predictable in that regard, that they're not essentially 'born' to ravage the universe. They don't have their own space travel either, they need more than they can provide. Saving them would be more of a blessing than a curse, imo.  I pick '1' out of the thought that being honorable in regard to the Krogan is the more responsible choice with them. They've been betrayed enough and that is the reason they rebelled. That's why the Geth reacted to the Quarians as well. Don't have to be organic to know when you're getting scrooged,eh?

[SinerAthin]

Wayning_Star wrote...

If all things MEU are uncertain,

Actually, I was basing it off the rule that you can never be certain in science.

Kind'a like you can never be sure that a glass will always break when smashed against a table, even though it has happened all the other 10000 times you tried.

Wayning_Star wrote...
 I pick '1' out of the thought that being honorable in regard to the Krogan is the more responsible choice with them. They've been betrayed enough and that is the reason they rebelled.

Is that decision based off your morals?

Modifié par SinerAthin, 02 mai 2013 - 03:20 .

[Wayning_Star]

SinerAthin wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

If all things MEU are uncertain,

Actually, I was basing it off the rule that you can never be certain in science.

Kind'a like you can never be sure that a glass will always break when smashed against a table, even though it has happened all the other 10000 times you tried.

Wayning_Star wrote...
 I pick '1' out of the thought that being honorable in regard to the Krogan is the more responsible choice with them. They've been betrayed enough and that is the reason they rebelled.

Is that decision based off your morals?

well the Krogan aren't glass and have been smashed quite a few times.. pretty tough those.


Actually, on the Krogan moral code, from what I gathered on the story and how stuff works out after Shep helps them out of their supposed social ruts. Main reason I strove to save good buddy Wrex as well as Eve and that super Krogan, grunt. The seemed to like Shepard, a lot. Might be morals.. my shepard is as renegade as I could muster.lol

[SinerAthin]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Actually, on the Krogan moral code, from what I gathered on the story and how stuff works out after Shep helps them out of their supposed social ruts. Main reason I strove to save good buddy Wrex as well as Eve and that super Krogan, grunt. The seemed to like Shepard, a lot. Might be morals.. my shepard is as renegade as I could muster.lol

Aye, but not all moral decisions are necessarily best in the long term.

I think Mass Effect did well in that regard. 
After all, we were good buddies and really close with Wrex, Grunt and to some degree Eve, but we cared little about the Salarian dalatress.

Even though she had the safest solution.

It creates a position where: "Should I help my friends, even though they may be wrong, and help someone I don't necessarily like towards a greater good?", where the player has to make a difficult decision that is a trial to the person's moral and cognitive ability.

Humans are extremely affected by their social stimuli, and it can often influence them to make decisions that are not always logical or rational.

I think that is why so many players choose to cure the genophage, because they were good buddies with Wrex, Grunt, Mordin etc, not because they really saw the Genophage dilemma from a completely objective, unaffected angle. The Dalatrass for instance was portrayed as very unreasonable and distasteful in her character.

Modifié par SinerAthin, 02 mai 2013 - 03:42 .

[remydat]

SinerAthin wrote...

Where did I say that?

Stop drawing false assumptions.

It seems you missed the point of my post. I'm talking about managing risks and chances.

Let's look at two options, both whom will end with the Krogan being cured.

Option 1: Cure them now. If they comply and follow Citadel regulations, everything will be fine. But if they don't, what's our plan B? What are we going to do if the Krogan DON'T comply and the galaxy is already in chaos?

Option 2: Wait a few centuries, rebuild our society/forces, and then offer to cure the genophage and let the Krogan develope under supervision. If the Krogan comply everything will be all fine and dandy, and if they don't, we have the military resources required to fix that.


One option is far more safer than the other. By picking 1 you are needlessly gambling with the safety of the entire galaxy, which is an impulsive and reckless decision.

It is implied from option 2.  The only way Option 2 can happen in the game is if you lie about the cure.  So you are basically betting that somehow you can conceal this lie for a few centuries.  If not, why would the Krogan ever trust you when you sent them to Palevan to be slaughtered to defend the a**holes that gave them the genophage only to stab them in the back and sabotage the cure?  And you do so by ignoring everything Eve said.  Again, why do you deny Krogan females the chance to decide their fate and condemn them and their children based on what the males have done?

[Wayning_Star]

SinerAthin wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Actually, on the Krogan moral code, from what I gathered on the story and how stuff works out after Shep helps them out of their supposed social ruts. Main reason I strove to save good buddy Wrex as well as Eve and that super Krogan, grunt. The seemed to like Shepard, a lot. Might be morals.. my shepard is as renegade as I could muster.lol

Aye, but not all moral decisions are necessarily best in the long term.

I think Mass Effect did well in that regard. 
After all, we were good buddies and really close with Wrex, Grunt and to some degree Eve, but we cared little about the Salarian dalatress.

Even though she had the safest solution.

It creates a position where: "Should I help my friends, even though they may be wrong, and help someone I don't necessarily like towards a greater good?", where the player has to make a difficult decision that is a trial to the person's moral and cognitive ability.

Humans are extremely affected by their social stimuli, and it can often influence them to make decisions that are not always logical or rational.

I think that is why so many players choose to cure the genophage, because they were good buddies with Wrex, Grunt, Mordin etc, not because they really saw the Genophage dilemma from a completely objective, unaffected angle. The Dalatrass for instance was portrayed as very unreasonable and distasteful in her character.

Yeah, Shepard really liked the Council. They were always sooo helpful and understanding, never ever serving their own goals first..totally selfless.. lol

really tho, that situation had a really heavy "thirty pieces" flow to it.. The Dalatrass and even Mordin had a bit too much practical madness about them. But Mordin was guilt ridden for some silly reason. Maybe all that was a then and now thing, some learning some not. But the Dalatrass didn't get too mad at me when I didn't 'go for it' She actually liked the idea of it for some reason. I see what you mean about the 'sins of the father' quotient in the game.

Krogans are dependable in their way, imo. Taken from game statistics, more than my 'old earth' moral infusions taken daily, with a pinch of salt. lol

[SinerAthin]

remydat wrote...

It is implied from option 2.  The only way Option 2 can happen in the game is if you lie about the cure.  So you are basically betting that somehow you can conceal this lie for a few centuries.  If not, why would the Krogan ever trust you when you sent them to Palevan to be slaughtered to defend the a**holes that gave them the genophage only to stab them in the back and sabotage the cure? 

We don't need their forgiveness for it to work.

Once we have rebuilt, we approach the Krogan and ask them if they are interested in a cure. The Krogan can refuse, sit on their planet, and brood over their old grudges for a 1000 years.

We will just dangle the cure infront of them until they accept it.
Not many Krogans would want to continue their life on Tuchanka when offered a way out, even if they had been betrayed. Because how exactly could we make it any worse for them?

remydat wrote...
And you do so by ignoring everything Eve said.  Again, why do you deny
Krogan females the chance to decide their fate and condemn them and
their children based on what the males have done?

I would never deny the Krogan a chance for redemption. I would simply give it to them at a moment that was more safe for everybody.

In fact, I expect the females to be a big reason for why the Krogan will still accept our cure even if we betrayed them during the Reaper war.
Because we would be offering them a future, and the females have a way to look past old grudges and think of their children.

Wayning_Star wrote...

Krogans are dependable in their way, imo. Taken from game statistics,

What statistics are you talking about exactly?

Modifié par SinerAthin, 02 mai 2013 - 03:59 .

[Wayning_Star]

SinerAthin wrote...

remydat wrote...

It is implied from option 2.  The only way Option 2 can happen in the game is if you lie about the cure.  So you are basically betting that somehow you can conceal this lie for a few centuries.  If not, why would the Krogan ever trust you when you sent them to Palevan to be slaughtered to defend the a**holes that gave them the genophage only to stab them in the back and sabotage the cure? 

We don't need their forgiveness for it to work.

Once we have rebuilt, we approach the Krogan and ask them if they are interested in a cure. The Krogan can refuse, sit on their planet, and brood over their old grudges for a 1000 years.

We will just dangle the cure infront of them until they accept it.
Not many Krogans would want to continue their life on Tuchanka when offered a way out, even if they had been betrayed. Because how exactly could we make it any worse for them?

remydat wrote...
And you do so by ignoring everything Eve said.  Again, why do you deny
Krogan females the chance to decide their fate and condemn them and
their children based on what the males have done?

I would never deny the Krogan a chance for redemption. I would simply give it to them at a moment that was more safe for everybody.

In fact, I expect the females to be a big reason for why the Krogan will still accept our cure even if we betrayed them during the Reaper war.
Because we would be offering them a future, and the females have a way to look past old grudges and think of their children.

Wayning_Star wrote...

Krogans are dependable in their way, imo. Taken from game statistics,

What statistics are you talking about exactly?

The ONLY time Wrex got testy and threatening was when he thought Saren was prepping a cure for the genophage and thought Shep was out to destroy it. But I got him to turn around and think about it. He decided it was a trap, or worse.. A deception.

Most other Krogan on Shepards side were loyal and some were even helpful throughout the story. Wreiv, I think his name was, were kind of insecure in the Krogan way, but not enough to warrant threatening them with extinction.

Over all the Krogan were consummate allies, not immediate threat. Depending on the choice made at the end, this whole discussion is kind of moot tho, as they're not the same as they were before the genophage. Once that threat was erased, much of their energy was reliving a lost past, not usurping the cosmos. They couldn't do it anyway, what with the Rachni wise to them and part of the Alliance and the good graces of the council. It's a good calculated risk to save the Krogan.

[remydat]

SinerAthin wrote...

We don't need their forgiveness for it to work.

Once we have rebuilt, we approach the Krogan and ask them if they are interested in a cure. The Krogan can refuse, sit on their planet, and brood over their old grudges for a 1000 years.

We will just dangle the cure infront of them until they accept it.
Not many Krogans would want to continue their life on Tuchanka when offered a way out, even if they had been betrayed. Because how exactly could we make it worse for them?

I would never deny the Krogan a chance for redemption. I would simply give it to them at a moment that was more safe for everybody.

In fact, I expect the females to be a big reason for why the Krogan will still accept our cure even if we betrayed them during the Reaper war.
Because we would be offering them a future, and the females have a way to look past old grudges and think of their children.

This is illogical.  You don't trust the females when you are 100% honest with them but you somehow trust them when you commit one of the most despicable acts of betrayal by sending them to be slaughtered on the Turians behalf while lying about the cure?  Why would anyone want to be allied with or respect anyone who did that to them?

The Krogan do not require redemption.  The Krogan living today did not rebel.  That was their ancestors.  This would be like me going up to a white man today and asking him how he plans on redeeming himself for slavery.

Modifié par remydat, 02 mai 2013 - 04:13 .

[Wayning_Star]

remydat wrote...

SinerAthin wrote...

We don't need their forgiveness for it to work.

Once we have rebuilt, we approach the Krogan and ask them if they are interested in a cure. The Krogan can refuse, sit on their planet, and brood over their old grudges for a 1000 years.

We will just dangle the cure infront of them until they accept it.
Not many Krogans would want to continue their life on Tuchanka when offered a way out, even if they had been betrayed. Because how exactly could we make it worse for them?

I would never deny the Krogan a chance for redemption. I would simply give it to them at a moment that was more safe for everybody.

In fact, I expect the females to be a big reason for why the Krogan will still accept our cure even if we betrayed them during the Reaper war.
Because we would be offering them a future, and the females have a way to look past old grudges and think of their children.

This is illogical.  You don't trust the females when you are 100% honest with them but you somehow trust them when you commit one of the most despicable acts of betrayal by sending them to be slaughtered on the Turians behalf while lying about the cure?  Why would anyone want to be allied with or respect anyone who did that to them?

The Krogan do not require redemption.  The Krogan living today did not rebel.  That was their ancestors.  This would be like me going up to a white man today and asking him how he plans on redeeming himself for slavery.

Yeah, and to think saving Aria and her little party palace for a few credits and eEzo...sheesh. A lot of slaving going on over there.

[SinerAthin]

remydat wrote...

This is illogical.  You don't trust the females when you are 100% honest with them but you somehow trust them when you commit one of the most despicable acts of betrayal by sending them to be slaughtered on the Turians behalf while lying about the cure? 

I trust Eve to honor her word, but unfortunately, the reality is far more complex than that.

It's not as simple as 'will not breed if the Krogan leader goes mad'.
Before going to war, the Krogan would go through a few steps.
1. Repopulate. 2. Rebuild. 3. Advance their technology. 4. Build armies. 5. WAR!

And if the Krogan leader decided to get payback, it's not like the females could instantly just draw the generation back into their wombs and say 'NOPE'.

remydat wrote...
Why would anyone want to be allied with or respect anyone who did that to them?

Because those who did it would be gone by the time the cure was offered, and the choice would be to
A; Accept,
or
B: Be angry and sit on a rock for the rest of eternity.

In their position, betrayed earlier but then offered a way out; what would you pick? What would you have to lose?

remydat wrote...
The Krogan do not require redemption.  The Krogan living today did not
rebel.  That was their ancestors.  This would be like me going up to a
white man today and asking him how he plans on redeeming himself for
slavery.

I did not talk about redemption as in a moral or ethical thing.

I meant as in given a chance to live together with the inter galactic community again.


Why are we in such a rush to give them the cure when we can wait and do it in a more safe manner?

Modifié par SinerAthin, 02 mai 2013 - 05:19 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Why bother? You've got the Crucible. If you had to go for a conventional victory fought over years, I could understand curing it. The Turians will fall in line if they want to survive.

[Obadiah]

SinerAthin wrote...
...
Because those who did it would be gone by the time the cure was offered, and the choice would be to
A; Accept,
or
B: Be angry and sit on a rock for the rest of eternity.

In their position, betrayed earlier but then offered a way out; what would you pick? What would you have to lose?
...

You think they'd really trust any outsider who offered a cure a second time after that? Far more likely that they'd develop their own cure and then *** * the rest of the galaxy. It might take them 5000 years, but Korgan live a while.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Why bother? You've got the Crucible. If you had to go for a conventional victory fought over years, I could understand curing it. The Turians will fall in line if they want to survive.

Some of us like the Krogan more than at least one of the council races.

Two of them in my case, that factors into the decision.

[S.A.K]

With Wrex and Bakara alive No. If they are dead Yes.

[remydat]

Siner

Who do you think raises children? Wreav? If the females don't want their kids going to war why do you think they are incapable of teaching that message to them so that when they grow up and sone idiot like Wreav says let's go to war they can tell him to F off?

And in a hundred years why wouldnt everyone decide to just let the Krogan die rather than risk it? They are the children of the bastards that betrayed them and you being a human are dead. So how are you ensuring that the galaxy 100 years from now agrees to give them a cure? All a salarian or turian has to do is reveal the truth about the betrayal laugh and taunt the krogan about being betrayed andbthen when some krogans inevitably get pissed and attack claim see the Krogan are violent so can't give them the cure. So this is fantasy.

I am in such a rush because am not willing to let more babies be born stillborn for crimes they did not committ. I also havr no faith that the a**holes that did it will follow through in another hundred years rather than invent new reasons to deny them as I noted above

Modifié par remydat, 02 mai 2013 - 04:51 .

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Why bother? You've got the Crucible. If you had to go for a conventional victory fought over years, I could understand curing it. The Turians will fall in line if they want to survive.

Maybe people object to billions of dead babies based on crimes committed a thousand years ago or whenever it was. But I guess since they are not pretty blue stillborn babies we should not care.

Modifié par remydat, 02 mai 2013 - 04:52 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Why bother? You've got the Crucible. If you had to go for a conventional victory fought over years, I could understand curing it. The Turians will fall in line if they want to survive.

Maybe people object to billions of dead babies based on crimes committed a thousand years ago or whenever it was. But I guess since they are not pretty blue stillborn babies we should not care.

Funny. You don't seem to care about the Geth killing billions...

[justafan]

Here are my two cents. The genophage is going to be cured, it's only a matter of time, Maelon (nearly) did it, Padok Wiks did it, and Mordin did. The number capable of curing it is only rising, and the STG will never be able to silence them all. The Question is, do you want a trillion Krogan who are forever indebted to Shepard, Mordin/Padok and humanity, or do you want them to only remember the grave betrayal that cost them another X years of stillborns and living without a cause.

[KaiserShep]

justafan wrote...

Here are my two cents. The genophage is going to be cured, it's only a matter of time, Maelon (nearly) did it, Padok Wiks did it, and Mordin did. The number capable of curing it is only rising, and the STG will never be able to silence them all. The Question is, do you want a trillion Krogan who are forever indebted to Shepard, Mordin/Padok and humanity, or do you want them to only remember the grave betrayal that cost them another X years of stillborns and living without a cause.

I'd say that's a fair point, and goes back to clan Weyrloc working with Maelon to produce a cure, but those Krogan would have turned it into something negative. It makes curing the genophage yourself only more practical in the long run, and kind of overpowers any argument against successfully helping Mordin administer it.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 02 mai 2013 - 05:08 .