229 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

And if one female did so and the other females opposed her as Eve says there will be Civil War?
Also, how do you imagine that the other clans would not find out and punish the clan responsible? If their females are not having 1,000 kids, they are not going to let another clan do so. Just like the US doesn't let just any old country build nuclear weapons.

So sure anything is possible. However, I fail to see the point in killing babies for something that is pretty unrealistic. Eve flat out says, the genophage contributes to the Krogan aggression. But let's just ignore that since it doesn't fit with your plans for mass infanticide.

[Morlath]

remydat wrote...

And if one female did so and the other females opposed her as Eve says there will be Civil War?
Also, how do you imagine that the other clans would not find out and punish the clan responsible? If their females are not having 1,000 kids, they are not going to let another clan do so. Just like the US doesn't let just any old country build nuclear weapons.

So sure anything is possible. However, I fail to see the point in killing babies for something that is pretty unrealistic. Eve flat out says, the genophage contributes to the Krogan aggression. But let's just ignore that since it doesn't fit with your plans for mass infanticide.

That's the key point that most people want to ignore because it allows for an easy catch-22 problem for the Krogan in trying to get the Genophage cured.

"We won't cure the genophage because you're too aggressive. The genophage encourages you to be aggressive so then we won't cure it."

[Whybother]

Morlath wrote...
That's the key point that most people want to ignore because it allows for an easy catch-22 problem for the Krogan in trying to get the Genophage cured.

"We won't cure the genophage because you're too aggressive. The genophage encourages you to be aggressive so then we won't cure it."

The problem is the game gives us no alternative.  We either trust the Krogan to keep their birth rate in check so as to not make the same mistakes they made last time - all this before they do anything to help the Turians; or we reduce their population by having them fight Reapers without any increase in the birth rate to make up for the losses. 

There's no choice given to "cure but have genophage v2 ready and make sure the Krogan know to act nice."  There's no real choice given to save the cure - Wrex goes after you and the (post-Destroy) screens show a desolate Tuchanka, strongly implying that the cure was never released even though the Krogan held up their end of the bargain.  It's an artificial choice and IMHO I don't think Tuchanka is nearly as well-written as people think it is.

[Morlath]

Whybother wrote...

Morlath wrote...
That's the key point that most people want to ignore because it allows for an easy catch-22 problem for the Krogan in trying to get the Genophage cured.

"We won't cure the genophage because you're too aggressive. The genophage encourages you to be aggressive so then we won't cure it."

The problem is the game gives us no alternative.  We either trust the Krogan to keep their birth rate in check so as to not make the same mistakes they made last time - all this before they do anything to help the Turians; or we reduce their population by having them fight Reapers without any increase in the birth rate to make up for the losses. 

There's no choice given to "cure but have genophage v2 ready and make sure the Krogan know to act nice."  There's no real choice given to save the cure - Wrex goes after you and the (post-Destroy) screens show a desolate Tuchanka, strongly implying that the cure was never released even though the Krogan held up their end of the bargain.  It's an artificial choice and IMHO I don't think Tuchanka is nearly as well-written as people think it is.

You're forgetting one important fact.

There is almost no one in the MEU that actively wants to cure the genophage outside of Shepard (potentially), a handful of scientists and the Krogans (obviously). No one in power wants the cure to happen. The Turians are only accepting of it because they want the Krogan as foot soldiers.

Without Shepard there would never be another chance at curing the Genophage unless something absolutely massive shifted the perspective of all three council races. If Shepard makes a deal for the cure to happen post-war and dies, there's no one people can point to who would follow through with the promise.

As much as I think a Genophage v2 works as a threat by a renegade Shep it has a major problem in that you can be sure the council would be itching to push the button almost the moment the Krogan did something they didn't like.

[remydat]

Morlath wrote...

You're forgetting one important fact.

There is almost no one in the MEU that actively wants to cure the genophage outside of Shepard (potentially), a handful of scientists and the Krogans (obviously). No one in power wants the cure to happen. The Turians are only accepting of it because they want the Krogan as foot soldiers.

Without Shepard there would never be another chance at curing the Genophage unless something absolutely massive shifted the perspective of all three council races. If Shepard makes a deal for the cure to happen post-war and dies, there's no one people can point to who would follow through with the promise.

As much as I think a Genophage v2 works as a threat by a renegade Shep it has a major problem in that you can be sure the council would be itching to push the button almost the moment the Krogan did something they didn't like.

To add to this, the further problem is not only is Shep one of the few that want to cure the genophage, there would probably be people like the Dalatross that would actively try and provoke the Krogan.  The genophage is horrific.  No matter what race it was done to some of that race would want revenge.  Anyone not wanting to see it cure can simply provoke those that want revenge and then when they do something stupid use that as an excuse to not cure the genophage.  So basically all you have to do is provoke the Cerberus faction of the Krogan and everyone will just blame all Krogan for them and deny them a cure.

Modifié par remydat, 05 mai 2013 - 02:19 .

[Whybother]

But then nothing matters anyway, since the Salarians will immediately begin work on Genophage v2, if they haven't already.

I guess that means in ME4 we'll see the Krogan still suffering the Genophage no matter what. Well that makes that "choice" a lot more meaningful!

[remydat]

Whybother wrote...

But then nothing matters anyway, since the Salarians will immediately begin work on Genophage v2, if they haven't already.

I guess that means in ME4 we'll see the Krogan still suffering the Genophage no matter what. Well that makes that "choice" a lot more meaningful!

Make no mistake, you can be sure they probably already have.  The difference is if the Krogan are cured and prove they can get along, the Salarians will not have the public support to deploy it.  Even if some dumb Krogan step out of line, if the other Krogan rise up to stop them and prove they have changed they will have no public support to deploy it.  Once cured, the only thing that will likely result in G2 being deployed would be a major Krogan uprising that is not opposed by other Krogan.

If the cure is not given, then as long as you can keep the Krogan infighting via subversive tactics and provoking the radicals, you can always claim well let's wait until things have stabilized before we trust them knowing it will never be stabilized because you will always find ways to provoke the radicals.

Modifié par remydat, 05 mai 2013 - 02:43 .

[Whybother]

I thought it would have been interesting if, had Wreav been in power, the Krogan questioning his leadership was actually one of the "good guys", welcoming Eve and Mordin/Padok working together.

It would have put a very interesting spin on "do you cure the Krogan with Wreav in charge" since it would clear Wreav's aggressionist tendencies are not the only ones with a strong voice on Tuchanka. Instead, we get someone even more aggressive than Wreav, so the only Krogan leaders we get are both jerks who want Australia.

[Dean_the_Young]

Bardox9 wrote...

Betraying the Krogan is morally wrong no matter your reasons. They saved the galaxy from the Rachni and now played a key role in the battle against the reapers. From a moral stand point, it is wrong. From a galactic stablity stand point, it is smart.

The morality, and past Krogan virtue, depends heavily on how you phrase it. Consider the less noble description of Krogan history:

Krogans broke a stalemate (the line was holding) in an exchange of troops for technology, and then went on to use those same troops and technology against the very galaxy they 'saved.' They were, in effect, simply removing a rival in the way for their own expansionism that threatened the galaxy, betraying the people who honored them.

Come ME3, the leader of the Krogan is actively blackmailing the formation of a galactic alliance to save everyone with demands for enabling them to return to their previous expansionism without demonstrating any cultural reform. The Krogan Alliance is effectively an extortion racket, with the fate of the galaxy held hostage.


Now, in most countries that I'm aware of extortion is considered both immoral and illegal... and breaking out of an unreasonably coerced agreement (such as 'do this or you die') it is not considered a betrayal.

[Bardox9]

I can't imagine the salarians wouldn't have a Genophage 2.0 stored somewhere ready to use. The fact that they have the capablity to watch the Krogan close enough to notice a slight population increase and launch a massive R&D project to knock it down before anyone else figures it out says alot about what they are prepared to do. I can't imagine the second version is any less cruel than the first. I'm sure the idea of letting the Krogan die out and simply clone new controllable ones if they are ever needed has popped out of Sur'Kesh more than once.

[David7204]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The morality, and past Krogan virtue, depends heavily on how you phrase it. Consider the less noble description of Krogan history:

Krogans broke a stalemate (the line was holding) in an exchange of troops for technology, and then went on to use those same troops and technology against the very galaxy they 'saved.' They were, in effect, simply removing a rival in the way for their own expansionism that threatened the galaxy, betraying the people who honored them.

Come ME3, the leader of the Krogan is actively blackmailing the formation of a galactic alliance to save everyone with demands for enabling them to return to their previous expansionism without demonstrating any cultural reform. The Krogan Alliance is effectively an extortion racket, with the fate of the galaxy held hostage.

Now, in most countries that I'm aware of extortion is considered both immoral and illegal... and breaking out of an
unreasonably coerced agreement (such as 'do this or you die') it is not considered a betrayal.

That's just ridiculous. The krogan aren't attacking the galaxy. The Reapers are.

Modifié par David7204, 05 mai 2013 - 03:46 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Morlath wrote...

So let me get this straight...

It's okay to condemn the Krogans because of their past behaviour even though they have never been given the chance to make amends? That just because they have aggression levels higher than most sentient species means that they will never learn, never adapt and never grow?

Xenophobia and the ability to rationalise anything is alive and well.

And so is willful neglect of the legitimate concerns of others, and the history of consistent patterns.

The Krogans have been given the chance to make amends: they've had centuries to conduct cultural reforms, the adoption of which would actually lead to a population increase (Mordin's genophage guidelines), galactic acceptance (by earning trust and favor), and even simple recognition of how they were in the wrong in the rebellions. Instead of making attempts to fix their own problems, they have spent nearly a millenia avoiding it: they haven't culturally reformed, they haven't established a major role or presence for themselves in galactic society outside of hired muscle, and they have rested on their history as heroes and the genophage an unjustified betrayal rather than accept and internalize the problems of the rebellions... and if you cure the genophage as Wrex and Wreave demands, this pattern is still going to continue because the Krogan will still be adopting the role of hired muscle, making demands based on their heroism in the war, have no real incentive to change the last several centuries of denial of the Rebellions, and the underpinnings of the only major cultural reform effort (Wrex's breeding strategy) is utterly blown away by the genophage cure.

A genophage cure isn't necessary for the Krogan to make amends. It's an active sabotage of efforts to reform.

To answer the question, no the right thing to do is to cure the Genophage and allow the Krogan the chance to adapt their ways to fit the galactic community.

The Krogan have already had the chance to adapt their ways... both before the genophage, and after. In neither have they changed themselves as a culture to be sustainable as a major power in the galactic community. With the genophage, they did not adapt themselves to fit the galactic community: without the cure, they tried to destroy it in expansionism.

[Dean_the_Young]

Morlath wrote...

Whybother wrote...

@Morlath:

The problem is not necessarily Krogan aggression. That is not what let to the Rebellions. Krogan overpopulation which all but forced them to demand new worlds is what caused the Rebellions.

Remember that the Genophage by itself did not cause the Krogan population to decrease. The rate of birth was set to what it would have been like without all the natural predators that the Krogan used to have on Tuchanka. In other words, they should have continued to grow in population, but at a more natural rate that wouldn't have presented as much of a threat to the galactic community. A rate similar to humans, asari, turians, salarians, etc.

Unless the Krogan accept a lower birth rate in order to maintain peace and their new role in the galaxy, they will have the exact same problem again.

You have a good point. However there's one small issue that is overlooked when it comes to the Krogan and their attitudes towards breeding.

The Salarians "raised up" the Krogans to use as shock troops to defeat the Rachni. In terms of social evolution the Krogan were not ready to leave their planet. Once raised-up, you have an incredibly adaptive species with a high birthrate brought into new areas and it's only natural that this species would then grow exponentially.

And here's where the argument falls down. People (and the Salarians) want the Krogan to socially evolve beyond what their level would have been if they hadn't been raised but aren't given them an incentive to do so. The raising up has dramatically shifted the social and political growth of the Krogans but no one in the MEU wants to take responsibility for this.

Curing the Genophage with the caveat of doing something similar/worse if the Krogans decided to run rampage gives them the chance to evolve to the same social level as the other species.

Leaving un-impeded population growth restrained by diplomatic engagement and conventional military deterence has already been tried. The outcome was the genophage.

Of course, the genophage itself was actually an incentive for the Krogan to socially evolve: had they done so and limited their death rates to pre-industrial levels (less killing eachother, less warfare), then according to Mordin they would have already gained positive population growth. Adapting themselves to galactic society would have beaten the genophage as a species-destroyer.

[remydat]

If anyone thinks another species would aid the Turians if the Turians had infected them with the genophage without asking for a cure, they are delusional. Wrex asked for what any leader in his position would ask for if they had a f**king soul that cared for their people. Period.

And the fundamental problem with claiming that all the Krogan had to do was adapt to the galactic community is that the genophage makes it damn near impossible.  In THEORY, all the Krogan had to do is adjust to the galactic community.  In REALITY, the psychological horror of the genophage has made Krogan men more aggressive and wandering killers seeking targets to justify their existence and made the women think wandering in the wilderness to be killed by a thresher maw is a viable solution to end their sufferring.

Pretending like organics can just will themselves to not be psychologically tramautized by something as horrific as the genophage shows a fundamental lack of awareness of organic behavior.  What is even worse is that normally, if someone is suffering from a trauma like the genophage they can go see a therapist or someone not suffering from the disease as a coping mechanism.  How the f**k are the Krogan suppose to do this when the therapist is suffering from the same trauma?  This is why the genophage is a self fulfilling prophecy of despair. 

So yes, it is the Krogan's fatalistc mentality that has doomed them.  The reason being because the genophage has given EVERYONE in Krogan society the same psychological problems meaning there is no SANE person not suffering from the disease to actually help those that are.  It would be like trying to cure a mental illness by throwing all the mentally ill people in an asslyum and saying figure it out guys.

Modifié par remydat, 05 mai 2013 - 04:26 .

[Whybother]

remydat wrote...
And the fundamental problem with claiming that all the Krogan had to do was adapt to the galactic community is that the genophage makes it damn near impossible.  In THEORY, all the Krogan had to do is adjust to the galactic community.  In REALITY, the psychological horror of the genophage has made Krogan men more aggressive and wandering killers seeking targets to justify their existence and made the women think wandering in the wilderness to be killed by a thresher maw is a viable solution to end their sufferring.

What prevented the Krogan from adapting to the galactic community before the Rebellions?  Because they had a high level of aggression well before the Genophage (due to both uplifting and their natural need for more space to allieviate overpopulation.)  The Krogan had an incredible opportunity - they were even granted a seat on the Council - and f'ed it up by declaring war on everyone, and throwing rocks at the Turian homeworld.

Given what happened during the Rebellions, what options would you have chosen to deal with the Krogan?

[Bardox9]

YES! This...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Krogans have been given the chance to make amends: they've had centuries to conduct cultural reforms, the adoption of which would actually lead to a population increase (Mordin's genophage guidelines), galactic acceptance (by earning trust and favor), and even simple recognition of how they were in the wrong in the rebellions. Instead of making attempts to fix their own problems, they have spent nearly a millenia avoiding it: they haven't culturally reformed, they haven't established a major role or presence for themselves in galactic society outside of hired muscle, and they have rested on their history as heroes and the genophage an unjustified betrayal rather than accept and internalize the problems of the rebellions... and if you cure the genophage as Wrex and Wreave demands, this pattern is still going to continue because the Krogan will still be adopting the role of hired muscle, making demands based on their heroism in the war, have no real incentive to change the last several centuries of denial of the Rebellions, and the underpinnings of the only major cultural reform effort (Wrex's breeding strategy) is utterly blown away by the genophage cure.

And this...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Leaving un-impeded population growth restrained by diplomatic engagement and conventional military deterence has already been tried. The outcome was the genophage.

Of course, the genophage itself was actually an incentive for the Krogan to socially evolve: had they done so and limited their death rates to pre-industrial levels (less killing eachother, less warfare), then according to Mordin they would have already gained positive population growth. Adapting themselves to galactic society would have beaten the genophage as a species-destroyer.

Dean the Young, you are wise...

The genophage isn't killing the Krogan. The Krogan are killing the Krogan. Their own natural aggression is the cause of their dwindling population. The genophage is designed to reduce their propulation growth to a sustainable level. The Genophage itself does not contribute to aggressive behavior, it reduces aggressive behavior. Wrex is the Krogan version of a pacifist.

[AlexMBrennan]

Leaving un-impeded population growth restrained by diplomatic engagement and conventional military deterence has already been tried. The outcome was the genophage.

That was when they had superior numbers and had been given superior equipment to fight the Rachni.
This time around, they have neither. If they decide to rebel again then the fight will be extremely one-sided.

Come ME3, the leader of the Krogan is actively blackmailing the formation of a galactic alliance to save everyone with demands for enabling them to return to their previous expansionism without demonstrating any cultural reform

By the same logic the turians are equally guilty - by withholding crucial resources until they are guaranteed that another species will take the brunt of the casualties.

Or the quarians who risk galactic annuilation unless they can get their petty revenge on the geth. [It is only later revealed that the geth are controlled by the Reapers and perhaps should be dealt with]

[Galbrant]

If were a Krogan I wouldn't want to get along with the species who were responsible for having my kind experiencing countless stillborns. Why would I risk the Krogan in this fight, when the Reapers are killing by the billions. Without that cure My people could go extinct just to save those who inflicted the genophage on us. But give us the cure we have something to fight for and since we're cured We can start breeding to mitigate the loss of troops during the war with the Reapers. Then once we done our part we can always adopt Birthing Laws to slow down Birthrates. Besides if you're were smart enough you have the Geth and Rachni along side you too. They can't take on them and the rest of the galaxy especially since we are not as well equipped during the Rachni Wars.

[Morlath]

Whybother wrote...

But then nothing matters anyway, since the Salarians will immediately begin work on Genophage v2, if they haven't already.

I guess that means in ME4 we'll see the Krogan still suffering the Genophage no matter what. Well that makes that "choice" a lot more meaningful!

Except that if the Turians or Salarians turn around and use the Genophage without an obvious reason (like a second un-rising) then they run the risk of the entire galatic turning on them in support of the Krogan.

It's one thing to allow a centuries old war-crime to continue, it's another to start that war-crime up again once it's been stopped.

[Morlath]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The morality, and past Krogan virtue, depends heavily on how you phrase it. Consider the less noble description of Krogan history:

Krogans broke a stalemate (the line was holding) in an exchange of troops for technology, and then went on to use those same troops and technology against the very galaxy they 'saved.' They were, in effect, simply removing a rival in the way for their own expansionism that threatened the galaxy, betraying the people who honored them.

The way it is portrayed the Krogan's population exploded and rather than ask for more planets or look to control the population, the Krogan instead decided to take them. There was no premeditated plan to remove the Rachni so that they could then take over the galaxy, that's a headcannon excuse to back up the continuation of the Genophage.

Come ME3, the leader of the Krogan is actively blackmailing the formation of a galactic alliance to save everyone with demands for enabling them to return to their previous expansionism without demonstrating any cultural reform. The Krogan Alliance is effectively an extortion racket, with the fate of the galaxy held hostage.

Now, in most countries that I'm aware of extortion is considered both immoral and illegal... and breaking out of an unreasonably coerced agreement (such as 'do this or you die') it is not considered a betrayal.

-The leader of the Turian fleet refuses to help without the help of the Krogan because they want to save their own world first.

-The Krogan refuse to help without the cure to a centuries old bioweapon used against them.

-The Dalatrass refuses the help of her people unless you sabotage the Genophage for something that might happen and is rooted in deeply held xenophobic beliefs.

You tell me which one of those three refusals of help is the more morally corrupt one. I'll give you a clue, it's the one that isn't 100% focused on doing the right thing of their people.

[Morlath]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Krogan have already had the chance to adapt their ways... both before the genophage, and after. In neither have they changed themselves as a culture to be sustainable as a major power in the galactic community. With the genophage, they did not adapt themselves to fit the galactic community: without the cure, they tried to destroy it in expansionism.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Leaving un-impeded population growth restrained by diplomatic engagement and conventional military deterence has already been tried. The outcome was the genophage.

Of course, the genophage itself was actually an incentive for the Krogan to socially evolve: had they done so and limited their death rates to pre-industrial levels (less killing eachother, less warfare), then according to Mordin they would have already gained positive population growth. Adapting themselves to galactic society would have beaten the genophage as a species-destroyer.

A warlike nuclear level species is given advanced tech and raised-up beyond their social evolutionary level in order to win a war. At the time it's no surprise that the Krogan thought that they could get away with the Rebellions.

You tell me how the Krogan could have adapted better under the strain of the Genophage. They aren't given an embassy (as far as in-game screen time shows) so they can't show any diplomatic skills.

Look, no one denies that the Krogan aren't a more aggressive species than the rest but there is no incentive by the Genophage to "improve". The galaxy see the Krogan as mindless thugs so they play up to the role and in the meantime what's the one major, overriding obsession every Krogan has? That the Genophage is slowly killing them. Regardless of how any of the council races want to look at it the Krogan species has mentally checked out and all believe they are dying by inches.

A Krogan's best and most natural ability is his ability to fight. There is nothing wrong with this and other species could easily have decided to incorporate the Krogan into their military in order to give them a chance at redemption. Fighting without trying to take over would have shown everyone that the Krogan can be trusted but no one trusted them enough in the first place.

And anyone (in-game or out) using Krogan as mercs as a reason is either blind to the facts or xenophobic. Throughout the game Shepard comes across Humans, Turians, Salarians, Batarians, Asari Commandos and Krogan within mercenary groups and (aside from the Batarians) no one decides to blame any other species for this criminals.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

I got that. I also don't have anything against the Krogan and infact I don't support betraying them for the most part. The thing is the violant males are seems to be in command. I was saying curing the Genophage with the wrong guy inchage can actually result in the extinction of the Krogan. I thought it's pretty simple to understand.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Eve

Only if we assume that this leader can actually get everyone to agree with him.  Even with Wrex dead Eve opposes Wreav.  In the end game, Wreav complains about Eve and the females opposing him.  So sure, there is a risk but I side with the women and the unborn babies.

Did I tell you I cured the Genophage in all my play-throughs with Wrex and Bakara incharge. I would never do that with Wreav incharge.

[Morlath]

Bardox9 wrote...

Dean the Young, you are wise...

The genophage isn't killing the Krogan. The Krogan are killing the Krogan. Their own natural aggression is the cause of their dwindling population. The genophage is designed to reduce their propulation growth to a sustainable level. The Genophage itself does not contribute to aggressive behavior, it reduces aggressive behaviour. Wrex is the Krogan version of a pacifist.

Give me something that isn't anti-Krogan propaganda from the game. That's a line that's spewed out constantly by anti-Krogan NPCs without any evidence to back it up.

Like I said above, the social mindset of the Krogan people are that they, as a people, are dying by inches. Thousands are stillborn or pregnancies not going full term. That's massive psychological damage done to each female who CAN give birth. For those who can't its a mark against them and their place in the world.

There's a great conversation in ME2 when you're doing either Grunt or Mordin's loyalty mission when a Krogan is talking about how a young male had his eyes when the females last came around. He has no idea if this child is his but the Krogan as so desperate for newborns that his friend is willing to throw a congratulations celebration ON THE CHANCE it's his. That's social devastation right there regardless of whatever Genophage propaganda will say about allowing the Krogans to grow as a species.

[Display Name Owner]

The Genophage is the only thing that made children precious to the Krogan. They treat themselves as cannon fodder for their clan wars. That and Tuchanka's naturally dangerous conditions are the only reason they managed to sustain themselves on one planet to begin with. I'm still not saying that the misery and desperation of the Krogan is a good thing, but their failure to learn even one damn thing from it speaks volumes. Well, I say that, Wrex, Eve and a handful of others learned from it. A handful out of billions. But yes, the psychological damage is horrible.

But that their culture relied on their massive birthrate to keep it from wiping the Krogan out, that doesn't say much good about the culture itself, does it? If they didn't throw their lives away so freely, they could have remained stable, but it's just not in their nature.

[Xilizhra]

Give me something that isn't anti-Krogan propaganda from the game. That's a line that's spewed out constantly by anti-Krogan NPCs without any evidence to back it up.

Anti-krogan NPCs... such as Wrex in ME1? Note too that he turned down Maelon's research for a cure in ME2.