229 réponses à ce sujet

[Morlath]

Xilizhra wrote...

Give me something that isn't anti-Krogan propaganda from the game. That's a line that's spewed out constantly by anti-Krogan NPCs without any evidence to back it up.

Anti-krogan NPCs... such as Wrex in ME1? Note too that he turned down Maelon's research for a cure in ME2.

And if you listen to Wrext, he explains exactly WHY he is anti-Krogan. Because he, like most/all, believe they don't have a future as long as the Genophage continues.

[Display Name Owner]

He's anti-Krogan because he recognises that their way of life is doing them no favours. Specifically he's anti-Krogan tradition. He knew that Krogan expansionism is what brought the Turians to deploy the Genophage in the first place, though he in no way finds it acceptable and still hates them for it. It's the idiots who went on the rampage centuries ago, and the Krogan of today who hold to the same mindset that Wrex has contempt for.

[remydat]

Whybother wrote...

What prevented the Krogan from adapting to the galactic community before the Rebellions?  Because they had a high level of aggression well before the Genophage (due to both uplifting and their natural need for more space to allieviate overpopulation.)  The Krogan had an incredible opportunity - they were even granted a seat on the Council - and f'ed it up by declaring war on everyone, and throwing rocks at the Turian homeworld.

Given what happened during the Rebellions, what options would you have chosen to deal with the Krogan?

Let's see, the Council uplifted them and had them breed so they could be used as cannon fodder against the Rachni.  That war was a brutal and vicious war which the only way to survive was to be vicious and brutal.  The Salarians also knew the Krogan were not ready for uplifting precisely because taking a species out of a harsh and vicious planet and then sending them to die in a harsh and vicious war does nothing for their development except reinforce the need for them to be harsh and vicious.  So much so that they erect statues and such to celebrate the Krogan being vicious, harsh and brutal.  So where in the above were the Krogan suppose to learn that being harsh and vicious is not how one survives?

The above doesn't mean they are not ultimately responsible for their actions but be real.  The Council are also responsible for the Krogan Rebellions because they did nothing to help the Krogan cope with their aggression but instead fostered that aggression then got mad when it was turned against them.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

Did I tell you I cured the Genophage in all my play-throughs with Wrex and Bakara incharge. I would never do that with Wreav incharge.

And I am telling you that with Wreav in charge Eve opposes him and Wreav and the end game makes clear she and the females delivered on Eve's promise to oppose him.  So again, I side with Eve and unborn babies when it comes to Wreav. She is a leader and a far more effective leader than I imagine Wrex to be.  When they are bickering at the start of the cure mission, Eve comes in and tells them all to STFU and those Krogan males STFU.  So I am confused why people act like Eve is not a leader as if only men are capable of leading.  Did you miss the email you get from her where she has rallied people in the Kelphic Valley to her and your cause?

The reason Krogan women lost their place in Krogan society is because of the genophage.  It made them less important.  Now that they have the power back, they as Eve says can retake their historic place in shaping Krogan society. 

Modifié par remydat, 05 mai 2013 - 04:41 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Did I tell you I cured the Genophage in all my play-throughs with Wrex and Bakara incharge. I would never do that with Wreav incharge.

And I am telling you that with Wreav in charge Eve opposes him and Wreav and the end game makes clear she and the females delivered on their promist to oppose him.  So again, I side with Eve and unborn babies when it comes to Wreav.  She is a leader and a far more effective leader than I imagine Wrex to be.  When they are bickering at the start of the cure mission, Eve comes in and tells them all to STFU and those Krogan males STFU.  So I am confused why people act like Eve is not a leader as if only men are capable of leading.  Did you miss the email you get from her where she has rallied people in the Kelphic Valley to her and your cause?

Yeah that would make sense if it's real life. But putting Eve incharge is not an option in the game. But sure if it was possible to put her incharge I would surely do it and cure the Genophage. And I don't think you'll do that if Wreav had to be incharge.
I think we agree on this point. We were saying practically the same thing but I was talking according to options in the game.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

Yeah that would make sense if it's real life. But putting Eve incharge is not an option in the game. But sure if it was possible to put her incharge I would surely do it and cure the Genophage. And I don't think you'll do that if Wreav had to be incharge.
I think we agree on this point. We were saying practically the same thing but I was talking according to options in the game.

I still cure the genophage with Wreav because I still trust Eve and the females to oppose him.  Eve doesn't have to be a leader to oppose Wreav.  She does so as is in the game.  She is a more effective leader IMO because she can rally people to her side without actually holding power officially.  As below Wreav notes that the females are exerting their influence including Eve. 


Even without Eve, I would cure the genophage.  Wreav is all talk and largely is only leader because he is Wrex's brother.  The fact he openly talks about War with the other races in the above is proof he is an idiot.  That dude will likely get himself killed sooner rather than later.  Krogans don't suffer fools and he is a fool. 

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Yeah that would make sense if it's real life. But putting Eve incharge is not an option in the game. But sure if it was possible to put her incharge I would surely do it and cure the Genophage. And I don't think you'll do that if Wreav had to be incharge.
I think we agree on this point. We were saying practically the same thing but I was talking according to options in the game.

I still cure the genophage with Wreav because I still trust Eve and the females to oppose him.  Eve doesn't have to be a leader to oppose Wreav.  She does so as is in the game.  She is a more effective leader IMO because she can rally people to her side without actually holding power officially.  As below Wreav notes that the females are exerting their influence including Eve. 


Even without Eve, I would cure the genophage.  Wreav is all talk and largely is only leader because he is Wrex's brother.  The fact he openly talks about War with the other races in the above is proof he is an idiot.  That dude will likely get himself killed sooner rather than later.  Krogans don't suffer fools and he is a fool. 

Can we just drop this? What if a violent male became the leader and those females fail to opose him and they start a new war. You might be willing to take that chance, but I don't want to risk the Krogan extinction because some female might save the day.

Btw, if wrex died on Virmire he never become the leader so Wreav being his brother doesn't mean sh!t. But he still end up incharge and doesn't end up dead.

[remydat]

If a violent male became leader then as Wrex suggested the Turians or Salarians will simply find some new way to kill them.

And when you first meet Wreav, he thanks you for eliminating Wrex on Virmire. See below. He is leader because of Wrex.  Shep is allowed to land on Tuchanka because more than anything he killed Urdnot Wrex and the Krogan give respect to their most powerful enemies.  Wrex's friends become Wreav's friends and Clan Urdnot fell to Wreav for the better.  Straight from Wreav's mouth.  So sorry, Wreav's entire claim to leadership is based on Wrex.

Modifié par remydat, 05 mai 2013 - 06:51 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Leaving un-impeded population growth restrained by diplomatic engagement and conventional military deterence has already been tried. The outcome was the genophage.

That was when they had superior numbers and had been given superior equipment to fight the Rachni.
This time around, they have neither. If they decide to rebel again then the fight will be extremely one-sided.

The Krogan didn't have superior equipment to the Council races, and their numbers were never claimed to be absolutely superior. Krogan bred, yes, but that was growth rate, not absolute population.

The problem of the Krogan population has always been that they recoup losses, rather than actual numeric superiority. (That went more to the Turians.)

Come ME3, the leader of the Krogan is actively blackmailing the formation of a galactic alliance to save everyone with demands for enabling them to return to their previous expansionism without demonstrating any cultural reform

By the same logic the turians are equally guilty - by withholding crucial resources until they are guaranteed that another species will take the brunt of the casualties.

The difference is a withholding of necessity versus choice. The Turians can't commit resources to the Crucible (and Earth) because the Turian government actually can not make the decision to do so: first because the Primarchs are being killed off on Palaven, and then because the pressure on Palaven is restricting their ability to redeploy their military assets. The Turian position is that they can't help you now, but if you help them they will be able to.

The Krogan leader we deal with, on the otherhand, has the flexibility to deploy their assets... they're just refusing to. The genophage cure doesn't actually change Krogan military strength in the war, and while the cure cements Wrex or Wreave's initial power over the Krogan, Wrex and Wreave are already treated as the leader of the Krogan. The Krogan position is that they can help you now, but won't unless you do what they want.

Or the quarians who risk galactic annuilation unless they can get their petty revenge on the geth. [It is only later revealed that the geth are controlled by the Reapers and perhaps should be dealt with]

If you consider the Quarian biology's dependence on Rannoch, they were increasingly risking species suicide if they didn't get Rannoch: there's no other 'safe' world with the biology and food to sustain them that they can survive on over the long-term. Negotiations broke down because of the Geth withdrawel, if they ever occurred, but the Migrant Fleet takes days to go through relays regardless: it would just take a small Reaper fleet to do massive harm to the Fleet.

Regardless, that's actually irrelevant to the Quarian's position vis-a-vis Shepard and the Alliance. When it comes to Shepard's cause, the Quarians are willing but simply can't offer support until Shepard can break the Geth blockade.

[Bleachrude]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

By the same logic the turians are equally guilty - by withholding crucial resources until they are guaranteed that another species will take the brunt of the casualties.

That's not actually true...the fact is the turians are being asked to remove resources from their own war to help with the humans...

[Dean_the_Young]

Morlath wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The morality, and past Krogan virtue, depends heavily on how you phrase it. Consider the less noble description of Krogan history:

Krogans broke a stalemate (the line was holding) in an exchange of troops for technology, and then went on to use those same troops and technology against the very galaxy they 'saved.' They were, in effect, simply removing a rival in the way for their own expansionism that threatened the galaxy, betraying the people who honored them.

The way it is portrayed the Krogan's population exploded and rather than ask for more planets or look to control the population, the Krogan instead decided to take them. There was no premeditated plan to remove the Rachni so that they could then take over the galaxy, that's a headcannon excuse to back up the continuation of the Genophage.

Where does premeditated come in? The Rachni would still be rivals in the geopolitical sense of all nation-states.

It would still be a selfish and self-interested war for their own advantage, rather than selfless heroism on the behalf of their future victims.

Come ME3, the leader of the Krogan is actively blackmailing the formation of a galactic alliance to save everyone with demands for enabling them to return to their previous expansionism without demonstrating any cultural reform. The Krogan Alliance is effectively an extortion racket, with the fate of the galaxy held hostage.

Now, in most countries that I'm aware of extortion is considered both immoral and illegal... and breaking out of an unreasonably coerced agreement (such as 'do this or you die') it is not considered a betrayal.

-The leader of the Turian fleet refuses to help without the help of the Krogan because they want to save their own world first.

If their own world falls, the Turians won't have a fleet and resources to supply. Palaven is the bastion of Turian strength, military and otherwise.

-The Krogan refuse to help without the cure to a centuries old bioweapon used against them.

They also refuse to help without Eve, or unless this is a universal cure, or unless the pre-deployment of the cure before the alliance, or...

Actually, it doesn't change that they're committing extortion. You might feel it's understandable, but it's still extortion.

-The Dalatrass refuses the help of her people unless you sabotage the Genophage for something that might happen and is rooted in deeply held xenophobic beliefs.

The Dalatrass's help for Shepard also isn't necessary for the galactic alliance, so you're kind of barking up the wrong tree. The Salarians are in the war regardless: they just aren't in Shepard's corner, which is quite different from threatening to scuttle the galactic alliance as a whole.

You're also misusing the idea of xenophobia. You'd be better served by cultural concerns... except the Krogan actually do have a contemporary culture we can look at and model from.

You tell me which one of those three refusals of help is the more morally corrupt one. I'll give you a clue, it's the one that isn't 100% focused on doing the right thing of their people.

Not the Salarians and Turians, then. It's really a pity Wrex became so short-sighted after ME2.

[Dean_the_Young]

Morlath wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Krogan have already had the chance to adapt their ways... both before the genophage, and after. In neither have they changed themselves as a culture to be sustainable as a major power in the galactic community. With the genophage, they did not adapt themselves to fit the galactic community: without the cure, they tried to destroy it in expansionism.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Leaving un-impeded population growth restrained by diplomatic engagement and conventional military deterence has already been tried. The outcome was the genophage.

Of course, the genophage itself was actually an incentive for the Krogan to socially evolve: had they done so and limited their death rates to pre-industrial levels (less killing eachother, less warfare), then according to Mordin they would have already gained positive population growth. Adapting themselves to galactic society would have beaten the genophage as a species-destroyer.

A warlike nuclear level species is given advanced tech and raised-up beyond their social evolutionary level in order to win a war. At the time it's no surprise that the Krogan thought that they could get away with the Rebellions.

If you believe that line of thought, sure. Why do it twice, though? Where has Krogan culture and society evolved past then?

You tell me how the Krogan could have adapted better under the strain of the Genophage. They aren't given an embassy (as far as in-game screen time shows) so they can't show any diplomatic skills.

What? You don't need an embassy to show any diplomatic skills: you get an embassy because you have diplomatic presence. That's how everyone else got it.

As for how, that's pretty easy: not following the traditional Blood Rage shamanism/culture of hyperviolence. Not only are you less likely to die, but you can have positive population growth as well.

It's not like this is beyond the Krogan, either: Wrex does it in ME2. His breeding strategy is what gets him political power.

Look, no one denies that the Krogan aren't a more aggressive species than the rest but there is no incentive by the Genophage to "improve". The galaxy see the Krogan as mindless thugs so they play up to the role and in the meantime what's the one major, overriding obsession every Krogan has? That the Genophage is slowly killing them. Regardless of how any of the council races want to look at it the Krogan species has mentally checked out and all believe they are dying by inches.

If they mentally checked out and delude themselves into violent decline, that's about as far from a comforting assurance of trustworthiness as you can get. It neither suggests they'll check back in if cured, or applauds their competence in any context.

Wrex in ME1 had the right of it, and the science of it was outlined by Mordin in ME2: it's not the Genophage that's killing the Krogan, it's the Krogan. The genophage puts the Krogan at pre-industrial survival levels... but the Krogan survived that before. If they didn't live self-destructive culture, if they focused on improving themselves, they wouldn't have a huge problem.

And that's the real issue: if the Krogan don't improve themselves, they're a problem for everyone else.

A Krogan's best and most natural ability is his ability to fight. There is nothing wrong with this and other species could easily have decided to incorporate the Krogan into their military in order to give them a chance at redemption. Fighting without trying to take over would have shown everyone that the Krogan can be trusted but no one trusted them enough in the first place.

You're not exactly getting away from the 'they're mindless brutes', here...

...or making a convincing case for why anyone should want hyper-aggressive fight-mongers about and outpopulating everyone else.

And anyone (in-game or out) using Krogan as mercs as a reason is either blind to the facts or xenophobic. Throughout the game Shepard comes across Humans, Turians, Salarians, Batarians, Asari Commandos and Krogan within mercenary groups and (aside from the Batarians) no one decides to blame any other species for this criminals.

Actually, you can. The xenophobic Asari, the general treatment of the Asari, etc.

Of course, the big distinguisher is that these species have governments who oppose the riffraf and their outcasts... not identify with them. A Blue Suns commander in the Terminus is an outcast from the Alliance: a Blood Pack commander is a fellow leader on Tuchanka.


Oh, and you're mis-using xenophobia again.

[Dean_the_Young]

Morlath wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Give me something that isn't anti-Krogan propaganda from the game. That's a line that's spewed out constantly by anti-Krogan NPCs without any evidence to back it up.

Anti-krogan NPCs... such as Wrex in ME1? Note too that he turned down Maelon's research for a cure in ME2.

And if you listen to Wrext, he explains exactly WHY he is anti-Krogan. Because he, like most/all, believe they don't have a future as long as the Genophage continues.

He also thinks those Krogan are the idiots, not the ones to be catered to and followed. Hence why in ME2 he focuses on a breeding control strategy that puts him at odds with those traditionalists and nihilists, rather than among them.

[Bardox9]

Are you suggesting that Wrex is non-violent???? You have played this game right? Every Krogan male with any power on Tuchanka is violent. Violence is how Krogan politics work. Any disagreement is resolved by combat. Varies from a good head butt to the use of WMDs. Whoever survives (if anyone survives) was right.

Their entire culture spirals around death. It has long before the Salarians uplifted them. Over the last two thousand years they have had access to tech beyond their ancestors imagination and yet Tuchanka is still a crumbling waste land filled by blood thirsty sociopaths.The Genophage did not create this reality on Tuchanka nor does it contribute to it. If anything the Genophage is an incentive for Krogan society to evolve for self preservation purposes.

The genophage reduces viable births to 1 in 1,000. The average Krogan female can produce 1,000 fertilized eggs in a year. The average Krogan can live well over a millenium. Warlord Okeer was a veteran of the Rebellions making him over 1,400 years old. You put that math together and you are still a dying race??? it's not the Genophage that's the problem here.

[remydat]

Dean,

One point of contention. You basically want them to go die in droves to support he people that gave them the genophage and then basically become extinct. They have no way of knowing that the war will only last a few months as opposed to the 200-300 years the last one lasted.

The Krogan will become extinct without the genophage and if the war lasts as long as the last one. Even with it lasting as short as it did, I am pretty sure one of the endings does in fact basically have the Krogan dying out or their world becoming overrun by Rachni without the cure.

So no, Wrex or Wreav would be one of the worst leaders in history to committ forces to a war that could last centuries and where the Krogan will dying on the front lines without a cure.

And you are still ignoring the fact that the genophage inflicts all Krogan with the same psychological torture.  If all of humanity was psychologically tramautized by billions of stillborn babies then how do you get therapy and learn to cope when your therapist has the same affliction?  This is like having a mentally insane person trying to cure other mentally insane people.  There is a reason people dealing with psychological issues go to people that are not suffering from the same issue.

Modifié par remydat, 05 mai 2013 - 09:19 .

[Morlath]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Morlath wrote...

The way it is portrayed the Krogan's population exploded and rather than ask for more planets or look to control the population, the Krogan instead decided to take them. There was no premeditated plan to remove the Rachni so that they could then take over the galaxy, that's a headcannon excuse to back up the continuation of the Genophage.

Where does premeditated come in? The Rachni would still be rivals in the geopolitical sense of all nation-states.

It would still be a selfish and self-interested war for their own advantage, rather than selfless heroism on the behalf of their future victims.

Read what you wrote:

"They were, in effect, simply removing a rival in the way for their own expansionism that threatened the galaxy, betraying the people who honored them."

To better suit your argument you phrase the Krogan involvement in the war as a need for them to take out "a rival" so that they could expand. It's explicitly stated that the Krogan could only advance beyond their world with the technology given to them by the Salarians. There was no planned expansion pre-Rachni Wars.

If their own world falls, the Turians won't have a fleet and resources to supply. Palaven is the bastion of Turian strength, military and otherwise.

The Turians are using the fleet and their resources as leverage in order to get help for defending Palaven. They are bargaining for their home world, the Krogan bargain for their species to be released from a bioweapon cage.

They also refuse to help without Eve, or unless this is a universal cure, or unless the pre-deployment of the cure before the alliance, or...

Actually, it doesn't change that they're committing extortion. You might feel it's understandable, but it's still extortion.

I was pointing out that ALL species would resort to such tactics when they need something. It's a mainstay in war politics right the way through human history.

Not the Salarians and Turians, then. It's really a pity Wrex became so short-sighted after ME2.

I'm not dignifying that with an argument.

Modifié par Morlath, 06 mai 2013 - 02:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

remydat wrote...

Dean,

One point of contention. You basically want them to go die in droves to support he people that gave them the genophage and then basically become extinct. They have no way of knowing that the war will only last a few months as opposed to the 200-300 years the last one lasted.

As amazing as your psychic powers are, they're a bit rusty. And your analysis about as well aimed, which is to say both are wrong.

For the second, the Reaper War isn't going to last a few hundred years in any meaningful manner: the conventional resistance phase (the phase in which it's an actual contest, rather than just mop-up for the Reapers) is going to be decided within a year or two, when the Reapers achieve naval superiority across the galaxy. Once the Reapers win the space-navy war, the Krogan infantry are irrelevant: they won't be able to influence the most decisive theatre, the space race. By the time Krogan birth rates could begin to factor in, the war's course is already decided.


For the first, there are alternatives to a universal, uncontrolled application of a cure on Tuchanka... such as a selective application of a cure. The Krogan don't all have to be given cures to restore population viability, and not all Krogan need to be trusted with cures: with small-scale, selective applications, Krogan could be vetted or screened before being cured. Hyper-violent warmongers who the galaxy rightly fears, the Wreaves of the Krogan, don't need to be empowered: reform-minded Krogan like Wrex could be enabled, and expanded. Controlling the application of a cure can likewise be done in a way to help further/enforce Wrex's reforms and power structure, whereas a universal cure blows his powerbase away.

Wanting a cure for the genophage, while risky, isn't in and of itself impossible. It's the manner and extent in which Wrex and Wreave pushed it that turned it into extortion that disregarded the concerns of others.

The Krogan will become extinct without the genophage and if the war lasts as long as the last one. Even with it lasting as short as it did, I am pretty sure one of the endings does in fact basically have the Krogan dying out or their world becoming overrun by Rachni without the cure.

If the Reaper War lasts as long as the last one, it's because the Reapers won the conventional war and have spent the rest of the time mopping up. The Krogan are doomed regardless of a cure or not in that case.

The Krogan only stand to go extint without the genophage after the war for the same reasons they stood to go extinct before the war: because they continued to make bad choices and refused to reform themselves to meet an achievable target.

So no, Wrex or Wreav would be one of the worst leaders in history to committ forces to a war that could last centuries and where the Krogan will dying on the front lines without a cure.

What good will a cure do in a centuries long eradication they would still lose?

And you are still ignoring the fact that the genophage inflicts all Krogan with the same psychological torture.  If all of humanity was psychologically tramautized by billions of stillborn babies then how do you get therapy and learn to cope when your therapist has the same affliction?

By finding a different therapist. They do exist, both in the form of non-Humans, and the Humans who for various reasons also learned how to cope. Those Krogan certainly exist, mind you: Wrex and Eve not only exist, but have entire power-bases of reformists and such who don't share the self-destructive fatalism.

 This is like having a mentally insane person trying to cure other mentally insane people.  There is a reason people dealing with psychological issues go to people that are not suffering from the same issue.

Fortunately, the genophage is not a mental condition. It's a stressor, and if you look at how psychiatrists and counselors work with people suffering from stressors...

working with and being counsouled by people who share or have suffered the same difficulties as you is pretty basic therapy used in everything from alcoholism, PTSD, amputation, grief counseling, and... guess it...

...post-miscarriage and birth problem counseling. Imagine that.

[Morlath]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you believe that line of thought, sure. Why do it twice, though? Where has Krogan culture and society evolved past then?

And this is where your argument becomes circular. At what point does the galaxy turn around and say the Krogan are ready? All I keep hearing is them proving themselves with no actual guidelines given. You could hang this question around the Krogan's necks for the rest of time if you wanted.

]What? You don't need an embassy to show any diplomatic skills: you get an embassy because you have diplomatic presence. That's how everyone else got it.

As for how, that's pretty easy: not following the traditional Blood Rage shamanism/culture of hyperviolence. Not only are you less likely to die, but you can have positive population growth as well.

It's not like this is beyond the Krogan, either: Wrex does it in ME2. His breeding strategy is what gets him political power.

Not follow a biological reaction? I imagine the entire process of maturing into a Krogan adult is learning how to control their Blood Rage.

And there is nothing wrong with a shamanistic society.

If they mentally checked out and delude themselves into violent decline, that's about as far from a comforting assurance of trustworthiness as you can get. It neither suggests they'll check back in if cured, or applauds their competence in any context.

Wrex in ME1 had the right of it, and the science of it was outlined by Mordin in ME2: it's not the Genophage that's killing the Krogan, it's the Krogan. The genophage puts the Krogan at pre-industrial survival levels... but the Krogan survived that before. If they didn't live self-destructive culture, if they focused on improving themselves, they wouldn't have a huge problem.

And that's the real issue: if the Krogan don't improve themselves, they're a problem for everyone else.

You're looking at psychological scaring and reading "mentally checked out"? Really?

And by the way, they survived pre-industrial levels with the aid of their birthrates, not in spite of them.

The science is numbers. Facts and figures which don't deal with the reality of what the Genophage has actually done to the Krogan society and it's this that turns Mordin around by ME3.

The Genophage does not and has never reduced fertility in the Krogans. If it had then your social arguments would hold more water. What the Genophage does do is reduce the viability of pregnancy. Now that distinction might be easily shrugged off for you and the Salarians but I can tell you for a fact that it's not one and the same.

Talk to a woman who has trouble conceiving and then talk to one who is hyper-fertile but has trouble carrying to term. The emotional scars are very, very different.

Actually, you can. The xenophobic Asari, the general treatment of the Asari, etc.

Of course, the big distinguisher is that these species have governments who oppose the riffraf and their outcasts... not identify with them. A Blue Suns commander in the Terminus is an outcast from the Alliance: a Blood Pack commander is a fellow leader on Tuchanka.

Oh, and you're mis-using xenophobia again.

And older Asari make comments about having "fun in merc gangs" in their younger years. It's considered something their young do just like dance at clubs.

[Dean_the_Young]

Morlath wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Morlath wrote...

The way it is portrayed the Krogan's population exploded and rather than ask for more planets or look to control the population, the Krogan instead decided to take them. There was no premeditated plan to remove the Rachni so that they could then take over the galaxy, that's a headcannon excuse to back up the continuation of the Genophage.

Where does premeditated come in? The Rachni would still be rivals in the geopolitical sense of all nation-states.

It would still be a selfish and self-interested war for their own advantage, rather than selfless heroism on the behalf of their future victims.

Read what you wrote:

"They were, in effect, simply removing a rival in the way for their own expansionism that threatened the galaxy, betraying the people who honored them."

To better suit your argument you phrase the Krogan involvement in the war as a need for them to take out "a rival" so that they could expand. It's explicitly stated that the Krogan could only advance beyond their world with the technology given to them by the Salarians. There was no planned expansion pre-Rachni Wars.

What you quoted still doesn't rest on premeditation, though. It can still start as soon as the Salarians make contact: their Krogan contacts, rivals in fighting over Tuchanka, are given a new direction to expand their ambitions and power via agreeing to fight the Rachni. It's a direction not enabled before hand, but still a continuation of the same sort of thought and perspective.

If their own world falls, the Turians won't have a fleet and resources to supply. Palaven is the bastion of Turian strength, military and otherwise.

The Turians are using the fleet and their resources as leverage in order to get help for defending Palaven. They are bargaining for their home world, the Krogan bargain for their species to be released from a bioweapon cage.

That's not in dispute, and does not contradict what was said earlier. The Krogan bargaining for a release from the genophage is not incompatible with the Krogan bargaining position being one of extortion and blackmail. Extortion and blackmail are tried and true historic bargaining positions.

They also refuse to help without Eve, or unless this is a universal cure, or unless the pre-deployment of the cure before the alliance, or...

Actually, it doesn't change that they're committing extortion. You might feel it's understandable, but it's still extortion.

I was pointing out that ALL species would resort to such tactics when they need something. It's a mainstay in war politics right the way through human history.

Would? Since it's not a necessity to bargain in such a way, or to make all the threats and conditions that Wrex and Wreave did, that's not really true. The Krogan negotiating gols might be universal (I disagree, but let's go for the purpose of the argument), but the strategy is not.

Not the Salarians and Turians, then. It's really a pity Wrex became so short-sighted after ME2.

I'm not dignifying that with an argument.

You weren't dignifying it with an argument before, either. You spouted platitudes and ignorred political realities.

Wrex's entire position in ME1 and ME2, and even a good part of ME3, was that the Krogan were dooming themselves because they weren't reforming. The only force for cultural reform was Wrex's leadership in ME2... and that was based on a system of self-interest and leverage based around controlled breeding, a system we were both told and saw as having a considerable number of unhappy and displeased Krogan. Wrex's position in ME2 was that the Krogan had to be coerced to reform, and the only successful lever we've ever seen over the Krogan was that of the breeding stick... a stick that only works with the genophage in play. Even the Krogan who don't like Wrex or reforming had a vested interest in playing along, lest the breeding females go to their rivals... but these Krogan were reforming because they had to, not because they wanted to.

When the Genophage is cured, no one has any cause to listen to Wrex whether they like it or not, because Wrex no longer offers anything they have to have.

Without the genophage, any Krogan band can take a female (willingly or not), and become just as viable with Wrex as without Wrex. No one has to listen to him any more to get to fertile females, because there is no such thing as a non-fertile female. Eve may claim the female Krogan are different (past female Warlords may disagree), but Female consent isn't necessary for expansion and powerbase consolidation by the Traditionalists who have always embraced the views that incited the genophage. Once they have the time to raise a generation, they won't need to force the new females either. And, since the Traditionalist viewpoint is already extremely popular, if not a majority, Wrex's reforms suddenly have a very short shelf life to anyone not already invested past reversal.

Wrex can't stop these people from being able to build their own powerbase on their own: the genophage cure does that. If they have their own power base to act from, if they can assume the popular support and political maneuverings (and assassinations) to assume power, these are the Krogan that will incite an external intervention by those who fear the Krogan... and intervention that, now that the genophage is gone, won't have a similar middle-ground.

Wrex, if he's to prevent a foreign intervention, can't let these people come to power... but he can't let them leave, either, because thanks to the cure any Krogan splinter group with a female can be a fast-growing, sustainable population. Wrex may be inclined to practice population restriction (to alleviate foreign concerns of over-expansion: to preserve his powerbase), but the more restrictive his policies are the more viable and easier to catch-up any splinter sections are. Once these splinter-factions are of sufficient size and influence, though, they not only pose a risk for forcing a reversal of the reformist policies or even overthrowing the Wrex regime... they can also spark a foreign intervention against all Krogan on the basis of their own actions, regardless of what Wrex intends. The Krogan Rebellions were not a universal uprising, after all.


If Wrex is going to prevent the Krogan Rebellions and seeing the Krogan wiped out (or worse, victorious conquerors of the galaxy), his powerbase is going to have to be dominant over all the Krogan. That means the Traditionalists are going to have to be both suppressed and contained: they will have to be disenfranchised from power (lest they assume power internally and overturn the reforms), they'll have to restricted in movement and freedoms (lest they leave and raise a splinter-faction rival that could challenge Wrex or provoke an intervention), and Wrex is going to have to build a governmental structure that is capable of discovering, suppressing, and stamping out the dissidents who would oppose these dissidents... who happen to make up one of, if not the, largest political factions of the Krogan. And Wrex is going to need to keep a boot on the face of these Krogan, forever, if we're serious about not letting the genophage lead to a new wave of Rebellions.

When a galactically acceptable end-state for a universal genophage cure pretty much necessitates an authoritarian police state to keep the peace, it doesn't strike me as the best deal for the species.

[OdanUrr]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

What does everyone else think. Is it okay to betray the Krogan in order to defeat the Reapers? (without metagaming of course)

My Shepard would never do that in a million years. If you start turning on your friends, what are you fighting for?

[remydat]

Dean,

Sorry Dean, that is your opinion.  No one in the game says that the Reaper War will only last a year.  Liara actually talks about the horror of her long life because if the Reaper War last for centuries, she will watch all her love ones die.  You can't just put your opinion in the game and pretend like everyone in the game things the Reaper War will effectively last for one year.  Wrex makes it clear in the speech below, he thinks the Council wants them to expend a lot of Krogan blood just like they did with the Rachni.

And perhaps you missed this nugget from the Dalatross.

Dalatross - We uplifted the Krogan to do one thing.  Wage War.  It is all they know because IT IS ALL WE WANTED THEM TO KNOW.



So sorry, the Council uplifted them for one reason and taught them nothing but that one thing.  They then inflicted them with the same disease that made them even more fatalistic.  So they share a large portion of the blame.  Perhaps they should try to stop being douchebags and help them find another way.

And yes I am quite aware of how therapists treat people with such issues.  The problem in your example is that those types of treatments are still administered by therapists or professional who are not suffering from the same problem.  

Can you find an example in human history where all the people suffering the same psychological trauma were just put together and then expected to cure themselves with no intervention/guidance from any therapist or professional.  It doesn't happen because such a course of action would be f**king stupid. 

Modifié par remydat, 06 mai 2013 - 03:04 .

[Morlath]

So to summarize.

The Krogan haven't changed and they never will. Don't cure them.
You also shouldn't cure them because the men might seduce or rape women enough to the point where they form their own army and try to take over the galaxy.

Putting aside potential raping as a reason not to allow fertility to be restored, the Krogan are perfectly capable of fighting themselves and there will be some smart enough to understand that any type of mass attack is likely to bring about a Genophage mark 2.

[Morlath]

remydat wrote...

Can you find an example in human history where all the people suffering the same psychological trauma were just put together and then expected to cure themselves with no intervention/guidance from any therapist or professional.  It doesn't happen because such a course of action would be f**king stupid. 

But Dean wants the Krogan to be able to go to other races and ask for help in curing the mental hang-ups and issues about miscarriages and stillborns.

"Hey Salarian, you know that plague you gave us that means our women are being mentally scared when they try to have children and is causing us to be fatalistic about our race? Could you help us get over these emotional problems so we can then prove to you we're good little Krogans?"

[Dean_the_Young]

Last post before I go to work.

[quote]Morlath wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

If you believe that line of thought, sure. Why do it twice, though? Where has Krogan culture and society evolved past then?
[/quote]

And this is where your argument becomes circular. At what point does the galaxy turn around and say the Krogan are ready? All I keep hearing is them proving themselves with no actual guidelines given. You could hang this question around the Krogan's necks for the rest of time if you wanted.[/quote]You could, but I'm not interested in for all time. Exact numerics could be quibbled, but metrics I'd consider important would be rate of internal conflicts (Krogan vs. Krogan conflicts), rate of external conflicts (Krogan vs. others), governmental functionality including standards of corruption, militarization, forms of education, the sort of resource allocation of these governments conduct (arms buildups vs. other expenditures), forms of culturally accepted passtimes and carreers (bloods ports and mercs as local entertainment are a bad sign), the popularity of the blood rage spiritualism and the propensity of hyper-violence ideologies, the acceptance and education of historical wrongdoing in the Rebellions, the stated and implicit political goals of the governments, and similar. If I'm to be told to trust them to form a government with immense power, I want a government with a basis to trust in.

Of course, what it also boils down to is breeding discipline and acceptance of measured violence. Most of the above can be met so long as the Krogan society in question can marshal the reforms and efforts to focus on breeding as necessary, and avoid unnecessary conflict . 

Any Krogan society that reaches a net-positive population growth under the genophage is demonstrating both the effort of internal development (breeding) and mitigation of external obstructions (the hyper-violence death rate) that are core to being trusted post-genophage.


[quote][quote]
]What? You don't need an embassy to show any diplomatic skills: you get an embassy because you have diplomatic presence. That's how everyone else got it.

As for how, that's pretty easy: not following the traditional Blood Rage shamanism/culture of hyperviolence. Not only are you less likely to die, but you can have positive population growth as well.

It's not like this is beyond the Krogan, either: Wrex does it in ME2. His breeding strategy is what gets him political power.
[/quote]

Not follow a biological reaction? I imagine the entire process of maturing into a Krogan adult is learning how to control their Blood Rage.[/quote]Blood Rage is, in the lore, as much cultural as biological. It's not just the Krogan equivalent to Adrennaline, but also the approach to handling it. Blood Rage as it is now is a post-nuclear development of the Krogan culture. It didn't always exist.
[quote]
And there is nothing wrong with a shamanistic society.[/quote]On the basis of being shamanistic? No. On the basis of what the shamanism teaches? Absolutely, just as with any other religious or secular ideology that's more of a detriment than a plus.

[quote][quote]
If they mentally checked out and delude themselves into violent decline, that's about as far from a comforting assurance of trustworthiness as you can get. It neither suggests they'll check back in if cured, or applauds their competence in any context.

Wrex in ME1 had the right of it, and the science of it was outlined by Mordin in ME2: it's not the Genophage that's killing the Krogan, it's the Krogan. The genophage puts the Krogan at pre-industrial survival levels... but the Krogan survived that before. If they didn't live self-destructive culture, if they focused on improving themselves, they wouldn't have a huge problem.

And that's the real issue: if the Krogan don't improve themselves, they're a problem for everyone else.
[/quote]

You're looking at psychological scaring and reading "mentally checked out"? Really?[/quote]...you do realize I was quoting you, yes?

If you dislike it, you shouldn't have used it.
[quote]
And by the way, they survived pre-industrial levels with the aid of their birthrates, not in spite of them.[/quote]Yes... but they don't need to suffer pre-industrial death rates now either. That's what technology and social structure can compensate for, since they're no longer trapped as primitives on a planet that can eat them.

The potential equilibrium still exists, which is the point. The Krogan aren't inherently doomed if they've already grown through this equilibrium point before.
[quote]
The science is numbers. Facts and figures which don't deal with the reality of what the Genophage has actually done to the Krogan society and it's this that turns Mordin around by ME3.

The Genophage does not and has never reduced fertility in the Krogans. If it had then your social arguments would hold more water. What the Genophage does do is reduce the viability of pregnancy. Now that distinction might be easily shrugged off for you and the Salarians but I can tell you for a fact that it's not one and the same.

Talk to a woman who has trouble conceiving and then talk to one who is hyper-fertile but has trouble carrying to term. The emotional scars are very, very different.[/quote]The emotional scars are different. The breeding viability is the same. Neither serves as an excuse for abandoning building a future.

We all deal with our scars in life, rightly or wrongly suffered,  but scars are not crippling deficiencies that prevent us from moving on. To be hurt, and to be hurting, is not a reason to abandon the future. It's an excuse.

[quote][quote]
Actually, you can. The xenophobic Asari, the general treatment of the Asari, etc.

Of course, the big distinguisher is that these species have governments who oppose the riffraf and their outcasts... not identify with them. A Blue Suns commander in the Terminus is an outcast from the Alliance: a Blood Pack commander is a fellow leader on Tuchanka.

Oh, and you're mis-using xenophobia again.

[/quote]

And older Asari make comments about having "fun in merc gangs" in their younger years. It's considered something their young do just like dance at clubs.[/quote]Which you can also find people critical of the Asari for... including some Asari.

Of course, the segment of the Asari society and the damage they can and have caused in their merc days doesn't quite have the same prominance as the Krogan culture,  but hey. Equivalence.

[remydat]

Morlath wrote...

"Hey Salarian, you know that plague you gave us that means our women are being mentally scared when they try to have children and is causing us to be fatalistic about our race? Could you help us get over these emotional problems so we can then prove to you we're good little Krogans?"

To which the Salarians will reply, "Sorry, we uplifted you to wage war and it is all we want you to know.  Now could you please just have the decency to suffer quietly in the corner over there and the next time we need you to save our a**es, we will be in touch."