229 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Actually, these few will be quick.

remydat wrote...

Dean,

Sorry Dean, that is your opinion.  No one in the game says that the Reaper War will only last a year.

There is: the Spectre Terminal on the Citadel's economic report of the war effort. The galactic economy can only support the rate of the (losing) war for aproximately a year before a collapse. Without a functioning economy, wars are doomed.

Resistance will continue, obviously, but that's why I distinguish the mop up from the decisive phase.

 Liara actually talks about the horror of her long life because if the Reaper War last for centuries, she will watch all her love ones die.  You can't just put your opinion in the game and pretend like everyone in the game things the Reaper War will effectively last for one year.  Wrex makes it clear in the speech below, he thinks the Council wants them to expend a lot of Krogan blood just like they did with the Rachni.

Both are true, and not in contradiction with that the war will be lost in the first year. Wars frequently continue well after they are lost (as in no longer winnable).

And perhaps you missed this nugget from the Dalatross.

Dalatross - We uplifted the Krogan to do one thing.  Wage War.  It is all they know because IT IS ALL WE WANTED THEM TO KNOW.



So sorry, the Council uplifted them for one reason and taught them nothing but that one thing.  They then inflicted them with the same disease that made them even more fatalistic.  So they share a large portion of the blame.  Perhaps they should try to stop being douchebags and help them find another way.

Sure. None of that's in dispute.

And yes I am quite aware of how therapists treat people with such issues.  The problem in your example is that those types of treatments are still administered by therapists or professional who are not suffering from the same problem. 

Incorrect. There are plenty of therapists and professionals who help people precisely because they have or are suffering the same problem.

Can you find an example in human history where all the people suffering the same psychological trauma were just put together and then expected to cure themselves with no intervention/guidance from any therapist or professional.  It doesn't happen because such a course of action would be f**king stupid. 

Easily.

Coping with death of friends and family.

[Dean_the_Young]

Morlath wrote...

remydat wrote...

Can you find an example in human history where all the people suffering the same psychological trauma were just put together and then expected to cure themselves with no intervention/guidance from any therapist or professional.  It doesn't happen because such a course of action would be f**king stupid. 

But Dean wants the Krogan to be able to go to other races and ask for help in curing the mental hang-ups and issues about miscarriages and stillborns.

"Hey Salarian, you know that plague you gave us that means our women are being mentally scared when they try to have children and is causing us to be fatalistic about our race? Could you help us get over these emotional problems so we can then prove to you we're good little Krogans?"

Why so straw-man? I'm perfectly fine with them talking to Asari... or Krogan who aren't fatalistic and emotionally crippled and have abandoned all hope that a future can be built.

Of course, these Krogan don't seem to exist to you, since you've yet to acknowledge their existence as a group. Despite two of the main Krogan protagonists being such people, and the third completely not caring about the genophage.

[Dean_the_Young]

Morlath wrote...

So to summarize.

Sure.

The Krogan haven't changed and they never will. Don't cure them.

Incorrect: don't cure all Krogan until all Krogan change. Feel free* to cure Krogan who have changed to acceptable norms.

*Within contexts that aren't going to **** on others.

You also shouldn't cure them because the men might seduce or rape women enough to the point where they form their own army and try to take over the galaxy.

Incorrect: don't enable people who openly proclaim intents for blood-feud revenge and reconquests, and glorify hyper-violence.

Putting aside potential raping as a reason not to allow fertility to be restored,

It wasn't a reason, nor was it presented as such: after all, I pointed that it wouldn't even be necessary to support a splinter faction if there were females willing to go along. It was a pre-emptive counter to an established defense of 'well, the females like Eve won't let it happen', which isn't a plausible barrier to the growth of the splinter factions.

the Krogan are perfectly capable of fighting themselves and there will be some smart enough to understand that any type of mass attack is likely to bring about a Genophage mark 2.

And there will be those that are not. Unfortunately, it's those who have a vote, and the smart Krogan aren't guaranteed a veto.

Any system which requires all participants (or groups, in case of nation-scale systems) to adhere to a certain code of conduct will, by definition of require, break down when someone doesn't.

[Morlath]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

You could, but I'm not interested in for all time. Exact numerics could be quibbled, but metrics I'd consider important would be rate of internal conflicts (Krogan vs. Krogan conflicts), rate of external conflicts (Krogan vs. others), governmental functionality including standards of corruption, militarization, forms of education, the sort of resource allocation of these governments conduct (arms buildups vs. other expenditures), forms of culturally accepted passtimes and carreers (bloods ports and mercs as local entertainment are a bad sign), the popularity of the blood rage spiritualism and the propensity of hyper-violence ideologies, the acceptance and education of historical wrongdoing in the Rebellions, the stated and implicit political goals of the governments, and similar. If I'm to be told to trust them to form a government with immense power, I want a government with a basis to trust in.

Of course, what it also boils down to is breeding discipline and acceptance of measured violence. Most of the above can be met so long as the Krogan society in question can marshal the reforms and efforts to focus on breeding as necessary, and avoid unnecessary conflict . 

Any Krogan society that reaches a net-positive population growth under the genophage is demonstrating both the effort of internal development (breeding) and mitigation of external obstructions (the hyper-violence death rate) that are core to being trusted post-genophage.
[/quote]

I don't see anyone dictating to the Volus, Quarians, Turians, Salarians, Hanar or Eclor populations on the way they should, shouldn't and mustn't develop as a social structure and what they need to be focusing on in terms of growth.

Only two species are actively dictated to in regards to attitude and social ways; Humans and Krogans. Both are considered too rash and agreessive and while the Genophage controls the Krogans, the council actually do hint at what you're suggesting in regards to Humans.

In either case it's one society trying to dictate to another. Having terms to follow in order to join the council (Humans) is one thing but to use these as measuring sticks to reverse a warcrime/biological weapon is another.

[quote]
The emotional scars are different. The breeding viability is the same. Neither serves as an excuse for abandoning building a future.

We all deal with our scars in life, rightly or wrongly suffered,  but scars are not crippling deficiencies that prevent us from moving on. To be hurt, and to be hurting, is not a reason to abandon the future. It's an excuse.
[/quote]

This right here explains why you aren't understanding anything I am saying. I'll try once more.

There is a biological difference between being unable to concieve/trouble concieving and being unable to carry full term. They are biologically different (although sometimes connected) events that medically need to be treated in different ways.

They impact a society in two completely seperate outcomes. A species which is used to a high birthrate can adapt to a sudden drop in birth rate with minimal mental and social scaring. Females who were used to giving brith to hundreds/thousands of young in their lifetime will get used to only doing tens/hundreds. This transition is made easier by the species-wide effect of the Genophage.

However if the effect is on the viability of the birth and the ability to carry full term it is a far more painful and difficult thing to overcome. A sentient female who "should" be able to give birth to hundreds of young in her life now has to risk potentially hundreds of miscarriages and stillborns in order to provide tens of children. Each miscarriage or loss of a child creates new psychological scarring. Females who appear unable to produce children or cannot handle the emotional impact of such a loss become, effectively, useless to the species that is biologically designed to reproduce at a massive rate.

You do not ask females of any species to "just deal with" the fact that their bodies are seemingly betrying the most singular design of their genetic makeup. You do not ask a society to handle thousands of miscarriages and stillbirths through hundreds of years and dance to the social tune of the people who inflicted this horror upon them.

Yes, the Krogan are an aggressive species. Yes, they need guidance in order to learn how to work in social groups not of their own kind (which hell, even the damn Mercs show this ability). And yes a lot have emotionally checked-out (I know it was my words) to avoid dealing with the effect of the Genophage but at no point can you blame them for such an instinctive reaction.


[quote]
And older Asari make comments about having "fun in merc gangs" in their younger years. It's considered something their young do just like dance at clubs.[/quote]Which you can also find people critical of the Asari for... including some Asari.

Of course, the segment of the Asari society and the damage they can and have caused in their merc days doesn't quite have the same prominance as the Krogan culture,  but hey. Equivalence.

[/quote]

You have no ingame proof that a Krogan within a merc gang has caused more damage than a Salarian or Asari.

[Morlath]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]Incorrect: don't cure all Krogan until all Krogan change. Feel free* to cure Krogan who have changed to acceptable norms.

*Within contexts that aren't going to **** on others.

In other words only cure the Krogan that you like or are "worthy"? The rest can continue to suffer the Genophage.

That's a eugenics argument if I ever heard one.

]It wasn't a reason, nor was it presented as such: after all, I pointed that it wouldn't even be necessary to support a splinter faction if there were females willing to go along. It was a pre-emptive counter to an established defense of 'well, the females like Eve won't let it happen', which isn't a plausible barrier to the growth of the splinter factions.

You and other advocates of the "but what if?" worst case scenario have brought up the fact that the females don't need to be willing in order for a warlord to grown an army.

There are splinter groups within humanity that want humanity to rule (Cerberus), there are no doubt splinter groups within the Turian and Salarian society that consider similar extremist views. You do no condem an entire people for the thoughts or potential actions of an extremist group.

[remydat]

Dean,

Please show me where Wrex or anyone in that negotiating room is aware or makes mention of this information?  Do you think it matters to them whether their extinction is as a result of what you call war or resistance? Dead is dead and without the cure, going off to die in massive numbers on a planet not their own will result in extinction.

Death of friends and family is not really a perpetual state.  The Genophage is.  People who are constantly confronted with death eg people living in war torn countries or soldiers are more likley to become jaded, disillusioned, violent or develop psychological problems as a result of those experiences.  Now if you can find me a study of people living in a perptual state of death in war torn countries that suggests otherwise then let me know.

So sorry, I don't see how you and I occassionallly having to deal with death through our lives is the same as an entire society having to deal with the genophage on a continually basis.  I mean how many stillborns do you think a human couple can endure before it has a serious effect on their attitude?  Do you think after hoilding their 1,000th stillborn child, they might have a fatalistic outlook on life? 

I mean this really is absurd.  If someone forced my wife and I to give birth to thousands of stillborn babies just so I could have a chance to have a sinlge live birth, I would want to destroy them comepletely.  What is even more laughable is these a**holes are doing this while they admit that they uplifted my ancestors several hundred years ago specifically to wage war and made sure that war was all they would ever know and then punished them for doing the only thing they wanted them to know.

Modifié par remydat, 06 mai 2013 - 04:15 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

If a violent male became leader then as Wrex suggested the Turians or Salarians will simply find some new way to kill them.

And when you first meet Wreav, he thanks you for eliminating Wrex on Virmire. See below. He is leader because of Wrex.  Shep is allowed to land on Tuchanka because more than anything he killed Urdnot Wrex and the Krogan give respect to their most powerful enemies.  Wrex's friends become Wreav's friends and Clan Urdnot fell to Wreav for the better.  Straight from Wreav's mouth.  So sorry, Wreav's entire claim to leadership is based on Wrex.

Sorry I missed that one. But it doesn't mean I should gamble with Krogan extinction.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

Sorry I missed that one. But it doesn't mean I should gamble with Krogan extinction.

That is your choice.  Just telling you why I would.  How many miscarriages and stillbirths do you think you and your wife could endure before you wanted to just kill the people that did this to you?  Not only that, the people doing this sh*t admitted that they uplifted your ancestors to wage war and that war is all they wanted my ancestors to know.  They are now denying you a cure because they say you are aggressive and violent as if what they did to your ancestors and you did not contribute to it.

At what point would you want them to realize they are helping to keep you aggressive and violent with this bull?

Modifié par remydat, 06 mai 2013 - 04:25 .

[Bardox9]

Always found the Krogan ultimatum of "Cure the Genophage or we let you die" to be moronic and short sighted even by Krogan standards. The Genophage may cause still births, but that 1 in 1,000 comes out kicking and screaming to life. The Reapers want to liquify their race. That's assuming they want to harvest them at all. They may just get wiped out or become the next "collector" race.

The Ultimatum is "You give us a cure or I kill us all!!!" That's the mind set they bring to a peace summit. This is beyond stupid, but who knows... Maybe the cure will somehow make them... not that... anymore...

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Sorry I missed that one. But it doesn't mean I should gamble with Krogan extinction.

That is your choice.  Just telling you why I would.  How many miscarriages and stillbirths do you think you and your wife could endure before you wanted to just kill the people that did this to you?  Not only that, the people doing this sh*t admitted that they uplifted your ancestors to wage war and that war is all they wanted my ancestors to know.  They are now denying you a cure because they say you are aggressive and violent as if what they did to your ancestors and you did not contribute to it.

At what point would you want them to realize they are helping to keep you aggressive and violent with this bull?

Ok if you really wan to take that chance I won't stop ya. But I'd be more careful about it than that.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

Ok if you really wan to take that chance I won't stop ya. But I'd be more careful about it than that.

Fair enough

[Morlath]

Bardox9 wrote...

Always found the Krogan ultimatum of "Cure the Genophage or we let you die" to be moronic and short sighted even by Krogan standards. The Genophage may cause still births, but that 1 in 1,000 comes out kicking and screaming to life. The Reapers want to liquify their race. That's assuming they want to harvest them at all. They may just get wiped out or become the next "collector" race.

The Ultimatum is "You give us a cure or I kill us all!!!" That's the mind set they bring to a peace summit. This is beyond stupid, but who knows... Maybe the cure will somehow make them... not that... anymore...

The slow extinction of their race due to the intense psychological effects of the Genophage or a quick war and extermination from the Reapers. As far as the Krogan see it, there's not much difference between death and death.

[remydat]

Bardox9 wrote...

Always found the Krogan ultimatum of "Cure the Genophage or we let you die" to be moronic and short sighted even by Krogan standards. The Genophage may cause still births, but that 1 in 1,000 comes out kicking and screaming to life. The Reapers want to liquify their race. That's assuming they want to harvest them at all. They may just get wiped out or become the next "collector" race.

The Ultimatum is "You give us a cure or I kill us all!!!" That's the mind set they bring to a peace summit. This is beyond stupid, but who knows... Maybe the cure will somehow make them... not that... anymore...

As Wrex says why should they shed more of their blood for the people that condemned them?  For the people who openly admit, they uplifted them to wage war and war is all the Salarians wanted them to know.  The Dalatross is basically taunting Wrex with this sh*t.  Like dude, yeah we f**ked you guys up.  We uplifted to fight out battles, didn't want you learning anything else except to wage war and then infected you when surprise surprise you did the only thing we wanted you to do to us. How f**king arrogant do you have to be to look someone whose babies you kill and say that to him?

So sorry, f**k them.  You don't talk sh*t like that showing not a shread of remorse or regrett and then complain about an ultimatum.  It's like the nerve of these dudes.  How dare you ask for a cure? How dare you be upset we kill your babies? How dare you not be grateful we uplifted and made sure you knew nothing about war and then punished you for it?

Modifié par remydat, 06 mai 2013 - 06:09 .

[Xilizhra]

Um, the genophage doesn't kill babies, it makes it so that they never live in the first place.

[Morlath]

Xilizhra wrote...

Um, the genophage doesn't kill babies, it makes it so that they never live in the first place.

Take from the ME Wiki:

"The genophage's modus operandi is not to reduce the fertility of krogan
females, but rather the probability of viable pregnancies: many krogan
die in stillbirth, with most fetuses never even reaching this stage of
development"

www.youtube.com/watch

Mordin - "Incorrectly considered a sterility plague."

To affect population growths (birth rates) without being a sterility plague, the Genophage lowers the female Krogan's ability to carry to term.

[Astartes Marine]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
Now ordinarily my Shepard tells the Dalistrass to get stuffed

As you should tell the arrogant fool to.

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
and I think it's what Shepard should always do.

What, betray a good friend?  I doubt that very much.

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
Firstly
the cure still exists, it's not like it's disappeared so it can always
be used in the future (assuming there is one).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Shroud explodes...the cure was in the Shroud facility...how is it still intact?

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
Even if it can't be used,
surely having the Krogan and the Salarian fleet available to defeat the
Reapers is more important than the future of any one specieis.

Heh, Salarian "fleet".  The only strength the Salarians have is their technical abilities. 

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
I also liken this to an episode of Star Trek Deep Spane 9 called In the Pale Moonlight
(a great episode) in which Captain Sisko does deeply unethical things
to get the Romulan Star Empire into the war with the Dominion.

Ah yes, "It's a faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake."  Good episode, bad analogy.  The Krogan are dying out, having fewer births than deaths is leading them closer and closer to extinction, the Romulans were quite alive and quite well just sitting behind their borders like vultures waiting for the war to end so they could swoop in and carry off the remains.
Killing Wrex destroys one of the few hopes of the Krogan being united and/or ever changing their ways (the other hope being Eve whom Wrex probably informs of the failure of the "cure") and condemns them to a slow death.
Killing Vreenak rids the galaxy of a pompous ass of a senator and brings the Star Empire into the war to keep the Dominion from winning.  Many lives are lost in the ensuing battles, but the Dominion is ultimately defeated and the Alpha Quadrant is ultimately saved.

The one person dying isn't even similar, Shepard shoots Wrex and Garak is the one who plants the bomb on Vreenak's shuttle not Sisko. 

[KaiserShep]

Bardox9 wrote...

Always found the Krogan ultimatum of "Cure the Genophage or we let you die" to be moronic and short sighted even by Krogan standards. The Genophage may cause still births, but that 1 in 1,000 comes out kicking and screaming to life. The Reapers want to liquify their race. That's assuming they want to harvest them at all. They may just get wiped out or become the next "collector" race.

The Ultimatum is "You give us a cure or I kill us all!!!" That's the mind set they bring to a peace summit. This is beyond stupid, but who knows... Maybe the cure will somehow make them... not that... anymore...

In his place, I would have used the cure as a bargaining chip as well. Why help the Turians in good faith and hope that both they and the Salarians would help me when the war is over? It would make sense to use the krogan as cannon fodder, then leave high and dry to continue to live with the genophage. Seems like the perfect time to use their desperation to his advantage, because he certainly can't rely on their word.

[remydat]

Xilizhra wrote...

Um, the genophage doesn't kill babies, it makes it so that they never live in the first place.

Only if you assume everyone shares your definition of life.  If they did, there would not be pro-choice and pro-life. 
A cell is scientifically alive so from a pure science prospective the minute an egg is fertilized it is alive because it can grow and replicate itself.  Whether you want to consider that life on par with a living child is a matter of morality.  You can't make that decision for other people.  That is a decision they have to make for themselves.

I know people who have had stillborn children or miscarriages and I know they thought their children were alive.  Are you going to comfort them with this non-sense that they never lived in the first place because you have decided for them that their child that died in the womb was not really life?

Modifié par remydat, 06 mai 2013 - 04:23 .

[Xilizhra]

I know people who have had stillborn children or miscarriages and I know they thought their children were alive. Are you going to comfort them with this non-sense that they never lived in the first place because you have decided for them that their child that died in the womb was not really life?

No, because logical reasoning isn't useful for dealing with emotional trauma. Recall that I do cure the genophage, I was just pointing that out, and that considering krogan stillborns as being victims just doesn't work; the actual victims are the adults.

[AlexMBrennan]

A cell is scientifically alive so from a pure science prospective the minute an egg is fertilized it is alive because it can grow and replicate itself

If you prevent that from happening you'll get an alternative genophage which "makes it so that they never live in the first place."

The confusion about what exactly the genophage does (prevent fertilization vs prevent fertilized eggs from developing) is probably due to Bioware changing their mind halfway through the series.

[remydat]

Xilizhra wrote...

I know people who have had stillborn children or miscarriages and I know they thought their children were alive. Are you going to comfort them with this non-sense that they never lived in the first place because you have decided for them that their child that died in the womb was not really life?

No, because logical reasoning isn't useful for dealing with emotional trauma. Recall that I do cure the genophage, I was just pointing that out, and that considering krogan stillborns as being victims just doesn't work; the actual victims are the adults.

But it isn't really logical reasoning when scientifically you are wrong.  Scientifically, a cell that can grow and replicate is alive.  Morally you may choose to treat that life as different from a baby that is born but that is not logic so much as it is your own morality that decides whether you want to treat it the same or not.

You are imposing your non-scientific view of life on others and claiming that non-scientific view is fact and not your moral opinion.

[remydat]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

If you prevent that from happening you'll get an alternative genophage which "makes it so that they never live in the first place."

The confusion about what exactly the genophage does (prevent fertilization vs prevent fertilized eggs from developing) is probably due to Bioware changing their mind halfway through the series.

Yes if you prevent an egg from becoming fertilized then you have prevented life.  My understanding is the genophage actually does both while I think people assume it only does one or the other.

Eve says as part of the same conversation that women made infertile by the genophage (ie cannot create a fertilized egg) wander off in the wildnerness to be killed by a thresher maw.  Shep asks Eve if she ever thought about it.  She said yes after he first stillborn (ie a fertilized egg that does not develop to term).  There is no requirement for the genophage to do one or the other and it may in fact affect people differently because life is complex.  In that single conversation Eve suggest the genophage causes inferitlity and stillbirth.  In fact, I am pretty sure it is hinted that Fertile Females are separated from non-fertile Females.  At the same time, those Fertile females still suffer stillbirths so again, I think the intent is that both can happen.  Just like in real life the same drug can potentially cause infertility in some women or genetic defects, miscarriages, or stillbirths in other women.
 
It is also possible Bioware simply confused infertility with stillbirth which people are free to believe.

Modifié par remydat, 06 mai 2013 - 06:18 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Morlath wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]Incorrect: don't cure all Krogan until all Krogan change. Feel free* to cure Krogan who have changed to acceptable norms.

*Within contexts that aren't going to **** on others.

In other words only cure the Krogan that you like or are "worthy"? The rest can continue to suffer the Genophage.

That's a eugenics argument if I ever heard one.

Then you've never heard one. Eugenics is a field of genetic (real and imagined) favoritism, not cultural.

]It wasn't a reason, nor was it presented as such: after all, I pointed that it wouldn't even be necessary to support a splinter faction if there were females willing to go along. It was a pre-emptive counter to an established defense of 'well, the females like Eve won't let it happen', which isn't a plausible barrier to the growth of the splinter factions.

You and other advocates of the "but what if?" worst case scenario have brought up the fact that the females don't need to be willing in order for a warlord to grown an army.

There are splinter groups within humanity that want humanity to rule (Cerberus), there are no doubt splinter groups within the Turian and Salarian society that consider similar extremist views. You do no condem an entire people for the thoughts or potential actions of an extremist group.

You would when the potential actions of an extremist group are catastrophic... and the extremist group isn't actually considered extremist. The 'moderates' are the mavericks and radicals, not the norm.

The funny thing about the Mass Effect universe is that all species are not created equal. They don't have the same abilities, they don't have the same mindsets, and they don't have the same potential for devastation.

The more you try to create an equivalence between the Krogan and, well, anyone else you've tried (Humans, Volus, Quarians), the more you overlook the fact that these species have different potential strengths and capabilities. Give the Quarians, or the Humans, or just about everyone else a decade of unrestricted breeding... and they'll be only somewhat larger than they were at the start of the decade. Maybe double, if you're generous. Give the Krogans a decade of unrestricted breeding, and you can potentially fill a few homeworlds worth of new lives. What the Krogan can do with their numbers is on a completely different level than what any other organic species (bar the Rachni) can do. There is a real difference in capability, and differences in capabilities are what make differing expectations and tolerances for people and groups. There is no one-size-fits-all criteria.

[AlexMBrennan]

Give the Krogans a decade of unrestricted breeding

And you'll probably get a lot of not-yet-fully-developed untrained krogan children. Curing the genophage does not mean letting them run wild again - it's always possible to kill them (e.g. Via orbital bombardment since they are sitting ducks without any fleets) but this may be the only chance to cure them *and* to secure crucial resources for the Crucible construction (Hacket says that we need the Turian fleet, who in turn want krogan infantry and we have no way of knowing if salerian fleets you are offered by the dalatrass can be substituted)

Eve says as part of the same conversation that women made infertile by the genophage (ie cannot create a fertilized egg

That's not what people usually mean when they use the word "infertile" - that just means "unable to get pregnant despite having sex", which could be due to a number of causes including fertilised eggs not nesting in the uterus (thus technically having been alive by our definition)

[remydat]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

That's not what people usually mean when they use the word "infertile" - that just means "unable to get pregnant despite having sex", which could be due to a number of causes including fertilised eggs not nesting in the uterus (thus technically having been alive by our definition)

Fair enough but that is still diferent that a stillbirth and I think there are both types.

Modifié par remydat, 07 mai 2013 - 01:35 .