338 réponses à ce sujet

[KLGChaos]

The Refusal ending actually fits Shepard's personality (or at least the way I played him) way more than any of the other endings. The Catalysts choices are basically Shep giving up. Through the three games, my Shep didn't compromise, he told Harbinger off during Arrival, he swore that humanity would fight and we would win because that's what humans do. He always found a way. So Refusing to commit genocide, become a Reaper-God or force Eugenics on the galaxy because some Catalyst says "Hey, this is what you've got, accept it or die." is exactly what my Shep would do. After all, overcoming impossible odds with your friends was a major theme of Mass Effect.. well, at least until they decided to take the side story of Organics vs Synthetics and turn that into the one story that ruled them all, while throwing all the other game's themes to the side in the name of art.

[dorktainian]

Destroy is the only ending my shep would choose out of the 3. the others go against everything he's been through in the previous 60+ hours gameplay.

The reapers deserve destruction. If you refuse then the next cycle does it for you anyway.

[drayfish]

AlanC9 wrote...

drayfish wrote...
This is a great point about the Catalyst.  I've still not heard anyone reason why - without metagaming - anyone believes what this creature says.

Belief is not required. If he isn't telling the truth, you're going to lose anyway.

I get what you're saying, but there's a fairly sizable gap between 'What the hell is this thing and is there anything else I can do with it?' and 'Okay, I'll go kill myself immediately like you asked me too, Reaper-man.'

At present Shepard asks few (if any) pertinent questions that would lead us to invest in the Reaper's story of benevolence (in the face of his eons of ruthless slaughter and hate - actions he is continuing as you speak), then Shepard just agrees to do what it says.

We get:

'Howdy there li'l Space Ghost!  ...What's that?  Give up all hope, condemn my people to horror, and then suicide?  Well sure, don't mind if I do...'

derp, derp, * pfft *

Modifié par drayfish, 13 septembre 2012 - 06:16 .

[yukon fire]

drayfish wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

drayfish wrote...
This is a great point about the Catalyst.  I've still not heard anyone reason why - without metagaming - anyone believes what this creature says.

Belief is not required. If he isn't telling the truth, you're going to lose anyway.

I get what you're saying, but there's a fairly sizable gap between 'What the hell is this thing and is there anything else I can do with it?' and 'Okay, I'll go kill myself immediately like you asked me too, Reaper-man.'

At present Shepard asks few (if any) pertinent questions that would lead us to invest in the Reaper's story of benevolence (in the face of his eons of ruthless slaughter and hate - actions he is continuing as you speak), then Shepard just agrees to do what it says.

We get:

'Howdy there li'l Space Ghost!  ...What's that?  Give up all hope, condemn my people to horror, and then suicide?  Well sure, don't mind if I do...'

derp, derp, * pfft *

The writing in ME3 makes "The Cape" look like "The Grapes of Wrath" 

[Brass_Buckles]

Everyone talks about how the whole game was about activating and building the Crucible. And it kind of was, but was anyone else thinking the whole time that the Crucible plans were stored in places in such a way that the Reapers almost certainly knew about it, and could have planted it? Or that it obviously did not work before, and other means of defeating the Reapers needed to be devised?

I am among those who believe that there should also be a Refusal Success ending. I haven't seen the Refusal ending, but from what I've heard, despite it being horribly short, it's probably one of the better endings due to its lack of space magic or illogically killing Shepard for something that, given the technology level, there's absolutely no reason Shepard has to die to accomplish (greybox tech means that there is absolutely no reason Shepard should have to die for her consciousness to be transferred into the Catalyst, especially since Reapers have even more advanced technology available to them that lets them read and control minds--without killing).

And then there's the fact that Reapers have that glaring laser port weakness that... only gets exploited once. Which is absurd. Your enemy has a weakness, so you ignore it?

Yes, there are legions of Reapers. But they have at least one weakness, and I'm guessing they have others. Meanwhile, the Crucible is based on plans that the Reapers have had access to, could have changed, and almost certainly know about and are prepared for. Yeah, let's build the Crucible so that we can magically turn everyone into a husk... Which it almost certainly COULD have done, except for Plot Magic that somehow kept the Reapers from realizing that they left those plans lying around.

Refusal makes sense for some Shepards, whether it is or isn't EA/Bioware giving the players the finger. I don't know if I'd make any of the Reapers' offered choices. I'd probably propose some other solution, but I sincerely doubt I'd trust the Reapers regardless. And if they're going to be inflexible, and if I don't believe they can be trusted, what else can I do but refuse to work with them?

[Humanoid_Typhoon]

yukon fire wrote...


The writing in ME3 makes "The Cape" look like "The Grapes of Wrath" 

off topic, love your sig you should check out dirty laundry on youtube #dirty laundry i think it is, 

[JBPBRC]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

but was anyone else thinking the whole time that the Crucible plans were stored in places in such a way that the Reapers almost certainly knew about it, and could have planted it? Or that it obviously did not work before, and other means of defeating the Reapers needed to be devised?

This. Adding to this would be the cheesy time of *when* those plans were found as well.

I haven't seen the Refusal ending, but from what I've heard, despite it being horribly short, it's probably one of the better endings due to its lack of space magic

There is still space magic. Shepard refuses, the Reapers reap the cycle, then the next cycle builds and uses the Crucible to eliminate the Reaper threat. It doesn't say what they picked, but personally I feel they picked Green.

And then there's the fact that Reapers have that glaring laser port weakness that... only gets exploited once. Which is absurd. Your enemy has a weakness, so you ignore it?

I don't think its a weakness, just a gimmick to use in a boss fight. Later on Earth a Destroyer gets smacked right in the laser port with two thanix missiles and even then it was still standing, though it went down shortly afterwards with excessive ground fire. So either Thanix missiles are absolutely horrible, or the laser port isn't as big a weakness as we thought.

Yeah, let's build the Crucible so that we can magically turn everyone into a husk... Which it almost certainly COULD have done, except for Plot Magic that somehow kept the Reapers from realizing that they left those plans lying around.

Yeah. This.

Modifié par JBPBRC, 13 septembre 2012 - 07:55 .

[Sparda16]

Why get rid of the refusal ending?, it's the only logical ending to choose.

I don't see why Bioware couldn't of appeased Refusal fans with a success ending where Shepard and the rest of the Galaxy live, by simply making the Crucible send out a giant EMP which contained Reaper code which would of disabled the Reapers. Your remaining War Fleet which has already took huge losses can then destroy them with minimal ease, allowing Shepard to survive and live happily ever after with his/her LI.

Surely this make more sense then the Space Magic/God Kid endings we have now.

[Kataphrut94]

Considering there are still people who genuinely think conventional victory is possible, it's pretty clear that Refuse still has a purpose - to hit those people over the head with the cold, unfeeling hammer of reality...well, game reality anyway. Real reality is boring and uninspired and has no place in this discussion.

Besides, there are quite a lot of people who like Refuse - some like how they have the option to stay true to their principles, because that's obviously more important the fates of all your friends and everyone who has ever existed. Or, there are people like me who think the subtle trolling of haters is hilarious.

[daecath]

Yate wrote...
Look, I get the decision to make it impossible to defeat the Reapers without the crucible. I agree with it, in fact. Anything else would've made the Reapers look too weak and/or stupid. But that's no reason to include Refusal. It's painfully obvious that everyone's hopes are on the crucible, and without it we lose. We get it. We don't need a fake ending to drive the point home.

Oh for crying out loud. The only justification for the "can't win conventionally" argument is one character's opinion. The codex, however, outlines several strategies that are possible avenues to victory. So not only is a conventional victory possible, it's entirely reasonable.

As for making them look weak or stupid, that would only happen if it was written poorly. If written well, it would have been a story about the strength of the human(oid) spirit, and the power inherent in cooperation.

Yate wrote...
There is no adequate story or gameplay reason to include Refusal. So what is it doing there?

Actually there is. It's there so that players who disagree with the catalyst can make a decision that they feel is in line with their character.

Yate wrote...
Simple. It's BioWare telling their fans where to get off. It's not part of Shepard's story, or the Mass Effect universe. It's a direct message from BioWare corp. to you, the player. And the message is "F you. If you don't want our ending, you lose".

I entirely agree, but it is as much a "FU" to BioWare from the fans as well. It's a chance for the player to say "I'd rather die than live with your assinine endings."

Yate wrote...
Please, patch out Refusal. It spoils an otherwise beautiful piece of work. If you believe your endings are strong, then stick by your decision and don't insult us by giving a fake option.

Here, let me fix this for you:
Please, patch Refusal. It's a beautifully written statement in an otherwise spoiled piece of work. Don't insult us by giving a fake option, make refusal a real path to victory if the player's score is strong enough.

[Adanu]

Bill Casey wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The endings function on logic, not emotion.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The endings are based on logic. Just not logic you like.

[BeastSaver]

Some here say that ME3 is the only game in the trilogy where the Reapers have been made unbeatable and conventional victory should be possible. It's been hinted at, at the very least, throughout all three games.

At the end of ME, you really don't have any true idea of the numbers of the enemy (although Sovereign told Shepard their numbers were legion), and it took the citadel and alliance fleet to destroy only one Reaper. That suceeded only because Shepard and two squadmates took down Saren/Sovereign and caused Sovereign's shields to fail. And the PTB ignore all warnings.

In ME2, at the end we (the player) are able to see the incredible numbers of Reapers headed for the galaxy. Shepard defeats the Collectors, but the Collectors are weak remote-controlled puppets. And the PTB ignore the warnings (at least officially).

In ME3, the Reapers have arrived in strength, destroying fuel supply lines and industrial centers, and isolating less important worlds while moving on to the major species' homeworlds. The Reapers have no need to refuel, eat, sleep, and are relentless. They replenish their shock troups via huskification and indoctrination. These shock troups are disposable and more can be made at any time. They don't have a homeworld that can be attacked. They have few weaknesses. Yes, there is some success in the destruction of some capital ships, destroyers, and processing ships, but the numbers of destroyed Reapers vs. those left appears to be miniscule.

In total, three years to prepare for an apocalyptic conflict where not much was done. Shepard et al say they will fight to the last, but what else are they going to say? "Holy S**t! Look at all those Reapers! We're going to Die!" There is a certain amount of bravado that has to be presented by leadership to keep everyone going in the face of overwhelming odds. The Crucible is being built because conventional victory is not possible. You build and use the mystery weapon or you die knowing you gave the next cycle the best information you could so they could bring it to an end.

[fr33stylez]

JBPBRC wrote...

There is still space magic. Shepard refuses, the Reapers reap the cycle, then the next cycle builds and uses the Crucible to eliminate the Reaper threat. It doesn't say what they picked, but personally I feel they picked Green.

That opinon came from a 'tweet' from one writer (who has previously claimed someone else had used his account). The game never says they used the Crucible after Refusal, they were probably too rushed to include that if that was their intention.

[AlanC9]

drayfish wrote...
I get what you're saying, but there's a fairly sizable gap between 'What the hell is this thing and is there anything else I can do with it?' and 'Okay, I'll go kill myself immediately like you asked me too, Reaper-man.'

At present Shepard asks few (if any) pertinent questions that would lead us to invest in the Reaper's story of benevolence (in the face of his eons of ruthless slaughter and hate - actions he is continuing as you speak), then Shepard just agrees to do what it says.

We get:

'Howdy there li'l Space Ghost!  ...What's that?  Give up all hope, condemn my people to horror, and then suicide?  Well sure, don't mind if I do...'

derp, derp, * pfft *

Well, my take on it was always -- pre-EC, even -- that this thing was just an AI programmed with insane premises. And since, as you say, the battle is continuing, further conversation with it didn't seem like a productive use of time. Really, what's he going to say that can make a difference? 

And I didn't see anything particularly horrible about Destroy or Control for "my people." The geth in Destroy, sure.

[AlanC9]

fr33stylez wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

There is still space magic. Shepard refuses, the Reapers reap the cycle, then the next cycle builds and uses the Crucible to eliminate the Reaper threat. It doesn't say what they picked, but personally I feel they picked Green.

That opinon came from a 'tweet' from one writer (who has previously claimed someone else had used his account). The game never says they used the Crucible after Refusal, they were probably too rushed to include that if that was their intention.

All they say is that the next cycle didn't fight a "terrible war." Did they fight no war at all because they built and used the Crucible before war broke out? Or did they just fight a non-terrible war? Headcanon what you like. Consider the ambiguity here a small mercy for the players who find using the Crucible to be immoral.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

AlanC9 wrote...

Well, my take on it was always -- pre-EC, even -- that this thing was just an AI programmed with insane premises. And since, as you say, the battle is continuing, further conversation with it didn't seem like a productive use of time. Really, what's he going to say that can make a difference? 

That's exactly why the scene should have been rewritten. As it stands, Vigil spent far more time explaining the Protheans' role in stopping Sovereign. And he was our ally. Considering the Catalyst's role in the story and his insanely controversial claim, it wasn't the time for Bioware to play the "he won't listen to reason" card. If anything, it should have been done in the style of episode VI as Luke and Palpatine debate the future of the galaxy amidst the Battle of Endor.

[AlanC9]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Considering there are still people who genuinely think conventional victory is possible, it's pretty clear that Refuse still has a purpose - to hit those people over the head with the cold, unfeeling hammer of reality...well, game reality anyway. Real reality is boring and uninspired and has no place in this discussion.

Besides, there are quite a lot of people who like Refuse - some like how they have the option to stay true to their principles, because that's obviously more important the fates of all your friends and everyone who has ever existed. Or, there are people like me who think the subtle trolling of haters is hilarious.

Don't forget the possibility for tragedy. A Shepard who's so committed to destroying the Reapers that he'll never cooperate with the Catalyst under any circumstances, and because of this tragic flaw he dooms his entire cycle. I don't think any RPG ever has let me play someone like that.

[JBPBRC]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
If anything, it should have been done in the style of episode VI as Luke and Palpatine debate the future of the galaxy amidst the Battle of Endor.

AWWWW, YO MAMA FIGHT!

[3DandBeyond]

I'm pretty sure no choice matters. I think they're all dead. They all died when the original endings destroyed the mass relays. They just don't know it yet. Refuse just lets them know what happened, retroactively.

[fr33stylez]

AlanC9 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

There is still space magic. Shepard refuses, the Reapers reap the cycle, then the next cycle builds and uses the Crucible to eliminate the Reaper threat. It doesn't say what they picked, but personally I feel they picked Green.

That opinon came from a 'tweet' from one writer (who has previously claimed someone else had used his account). The game never says they used the Crucible after Refusal, they were probably too rushed to include that if that was their intention.

All they say is that the next cycle didn't fight a "terrible war." Did they fight no war at all because they built and used the Crucible before war broke out? Or did they just fight a non-terrible war? Headcanon what you like. Consider the ambiguity here a small mercy for the players who find using the Crucible to be immoral.

I could care less whether the next cycle used the Crucible or not, to be honest. It's not my choice to make.

But you can't make the claim based on what is presented in the game that they did with certainty. Liara's beacon also simply says 'the Crucible didn't work' so one may interpret that as evidence of a non-Crucible victory. Maybe they ambushed teh Reapers in dark space. Maybe they set a trap for the Reapers when they arrived. Who know, who cares. But tweeting 'the next cycle used the crucible' is just not supported by their half-assed ending.

Modifié par fr33stylez, 13 septembre 2012 - 07:56 .

[Atherus]

Well in MY ending, shepard was shot by Marauder Shields and then the story continues here:

koobismo.deviantart.com/gallery/

 

Modifié par Atherus, 13 septembre 2012 - 08:15 .

[Ender Ghost]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh there's a giant middle finger. But no it's not because Shep lost. But rather that he went down like a chump, there's a quick fade to black and via twitter canon we learn the next cycle derped and went along with starbrat anyway despite being told the crucible didn't work.

That was the middle finger.

*sigh*

*Throws out xbox*

I tried so hard, and got so far! ... And it didn't even matteeeerurer!


Seriously though, I picked refusal because I didn't like any of the other options, and now you tell me that on twitter they said the future civilizations I, and everyone else, died for went ahead and sided with the reapers anyways?

[AlanC9]

Ender Ghost wrote...
Seriously though, I picked refusal because I didn't like any of the other options, and now you tell me that on twitter they said the future civilizations I, and everyone else, died for went ahead and sided with the reapers anyways? 

Remind me again how destroying the Reapers with the Crucible equals siding with them.

[Ender Ghost]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...
Seriously though, I picked refusal because I didn't like any of the other options, and now you tell me that on twitter they said the future civilizations I, and everyone else, died for went ahead and sided with the reapers anyways? 

Remind me again how destroying the Reapers with the Crucible equals siding with them.

C, you become a reaper and control reapers while also 'herding' nonreapers around.

S, You basicly turn everyone into husks.

D, You destroy all reaper tech which will probably set you back hundreds of years and you'll be lucky if your race doesn't die out from obvious reasons.

IMO, its side with the reapers or die with them... (again).

Modifié par Ender Ghost, 13 septembre 2012 - 08:38 .

[AlanC9]

fr33stylez wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...
That opinon came from a 'tweet' from one writer (who has previously claimed someone else had used his account). The game never says they used the Crucible after Refusal, they were probably too rushed to include that if that was their intention.

All they say is that the next cycle didn't fight a "terrible war." Did they fight no war at all because they built and used the Crucible before war broke out? Or did they just fight a non-terrible war? Headcanon what you like. Consider the ambiguity here a small mercy for the players who find using the Crucible to be immoral.

I could care less whether the next cycle used the Crucible or not, to be honest. It's not my choice to make.

But you can't make the claim based on what is presented in the game that they did with certainty. Liara's beacon also simply says 'the Crucible didn't work' so one may interpret that as evidence of a non-Crucible victory. Maybe they ambushed teh Reapers in dark space. Maybe they set a trap for the Reapers when they arrived. Who know, who cares. But tweeting 'the next cycle used the crucible' is just not supported by their half-assed ending.

Umm.... yeah. You can't say that using the Crucible in the next cycle is proven, and I didn't say that.

Good thing Bio didn't bother to make it clear. Folks like poor Ender Ghost would have really been slapped in the face if that had happened.