338 réponses à ce sujet

[Jononarf]

Greylycantrope wrote...

It fits both in my case, my Shepard's character in not your Shepard's character. Synthesis is the only thing that doesn't fit the universe.

Saren's mission from ME1. It's obvious.

[Ender Ghost]

AlanC9 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...
That opinon came from a 'tweet' from one writer (who has previously claimed someone else had used his account). The game never says they used the Crucible after Refusal, they were probably too rushed to include that if that was their intention.

All they say is that the next cycle didn't fight a "terrible war." Did they fight no war at all because they built and used the Crucible before war broke out? Or did they just fight a non-terrible war? Headcanon what you like. Consider the ambiguity here a small mercy for the players who find using the Crucible to be immoral.

I could care less whether the next cycle used the Crucible or not, to be honest. It's not my choice to make.

But you can't make the claim based on what is presented in the game that they did with certainty. Liara's beacon also simply says 'the Crucible didn't work' so one may interpret that as evidence of a non-Crucible victory. Maybe they ambushed teh Reapers in dark space. Maybe they set a trap for the Reapers when they arrived. Who know, who cares. But tweeting 'the next cycle used the crucible' is just not supported by their half-assed ending.

Umm.... yeah. You can't say that using the Crucible in the next cycle is proven, and I didn't say that.

Good thing Bio didn't bother to make it clear. Folks like poor Ender Ghost would have really been slapped in the face if that had happened.

Its proven (According to the post I quoted, it might not be true) on their twitter. And no, for the most part I wouldn't, I got over it when Casey hijacked the series and screwed over the ending, twice. TBH I feel sad for people like my brother who are color blind and only got one ending pre-EC, and then had to choose between bad, worse, and worsest post-EC.

But you clearly missed my point, if I picked refusal because all the other endings sucked, then its a slap in the face to learn that the races went and followed the starbrat's solutions even after I tried to pick an alternative, refusal just reafirms the fact that your choices don't matter in the game, no matter what.

[AlanC9]

Ender Ghost wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Remind me again how destroying the Reapers with the Crucible equals siding with them.

C, you become a reaper and control reapers while also 'herding' nonreapers around.

S, You basicly turn everyone into husks.

These are odd interpretations. If anything, Systhesis turns husks into normal beings. And if your Control shep wants to act like a Reaper, that's his doing.

D, You destroy all reaper tech which will probably set you back hundreds of years and you'll be lucky if your race doesn't die out from obvious reasons.

This makes no sense at all. Starships work just fine in Destroy. What do you figure broke?

[Ender Ghost]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Remind me again how destroying the Reapers with the Crucible equals siding with them.

C, you become a reaper and control reapers while also 'herding' nonreapers around.

S, You basicly turn everyone into husks.

These are odd interpretations. If anything, Systhesis turns husks into normal beings. And if your Control shep wants to act like a Reaper, that's his doing.

D, You destroy all reaper tech which will probably set you back hundreds of years and you'll be lucky if your race doesn't die out from obvious reasons.

This makes no sense at all. Starships work just fine in Destroy. What do you figure broke?

But everyone now is basicly a mini reaper, which isn't far off from a husk other then they can think for themselves and they look seminormal.

And yes, star ships work just fine, but they can't leave because there are no relays, therefore quarians, turians, etc die from lack of food they can eat, those who are left are trying to rebuild Earth and the relays but again the planet, the population, and fleet is decimated so its not far out to see them all die of disease, starvation, or even a military coup.


And again, your avoiding my argument and focusing on my opinion on the post ec endings, tbh I'm really doubting I'll stay in this convo much longer with you going around in circles avoiding my argument.

Modifié par Ender Ghost, 13 septembre 2012 - 08:54 .

[AlanC9]

Ender Ghost wrote...

Its proven (According to the post I quoted, it might not be true) on their twitter. And no, for the most part I wouldn't, I got over it when Casey hijacked the series and screwed over the ending, twice. TBH I feel sad for people like my brother who are color blind and only got one ending pre-EC, and then had to choose between bad, worse, and worsest post-EC.

The question is whether anything outside the game itself counts. I don't think it should, myself, so I'm agreeing with fr33stylez that the existing ending is ambiguous. You should adopt our position; you'll be happier.

But you clearly missed my point, if I picked refusal because all the other endings sucked, then its a slap in the face to learn that the races went and followed the starbrat's solutions even after I tried to pick an alternative, refusal just reafirms the fact that your choices don't matter in the game, no matter what.

Your choices do matter. You managed to get the whole galaxy killed, didn't you?

What it reaffirms is that Refuse is not the way to save the galaxy. Which is hardly a surprise.

[Ender Ghost]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

Its proven (According to the post I quoted, it might not be true) on their twitter. And no, for the most part I wouldn't, I got over it when Casey hijacked the series and screwed over the ending, twice. TBH I feel sad for people like my brother who are color blind and only got one ending pre-EC, and then had to choose between bad, worse, and worsest post-EC.

The question is whether anything outside the game itself counts. I don't think it should, myself, so I'm agreeing with fr33stylez that the existing ending is ambiguous. You should adopt our position; you'll be happier.

But you clearly missed my point, if I picked refusal because all the other endings sucked, then its a slap in the face to learn that the races went and followed the starbrat's solutions even after I tried to pick an alternative, refusal just reafirms the fact that your choices don't matter in the game, no matter what.

Your choices do matter. You managed to get the whole galaxy killed, didn't you?

What it reaffirms is that Refuse is not the way to save the galaxy. Which is hardly a surprise.

*facepalm*

[Applepie_Svk]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ender Ghost wrote...

But you clearly missed my point, if I picked refusal because all the other endings sucked, then its a slap in the face to learn that the races went and followed the starbrat's solutions even after I tried to pick an alternative, refusal just reafirms the fact that your choices don't matter in the game, no matter what.

Your choices do matter. You managed to get the whole galaxy killed, didn't you?

What it reaffirms is that Refuse is not the way to save the galaxy. Which is hardly a surprise.

Best bull**** of the day...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 13 septembre 2012 - 09:02 .

[AlanC9]

Ender Ghost wrote...
But everyone now is basicly a mini reaper, which isn't far off from a husk other then they can think for themselves and they look seminormal.

So what's the downside, again? I'm part robot now? As opposed to being, you know, dead? Bring it on.

And yes, star ships work just fine, but they can't leave because there are no relays, therefore quarians, turians, etc die from lack of food they can eat, those who are left are trying to rebuild Earth and the relays but again the planet, the population, and fleet is decimated so its not far out to see them all die of disease, starvation, or even a military coup.

This is badly confused. Starships work just fine without relays -- 12 l.y. a day is better than Star Trek if Voyager is to be believed. We go between systems without using relays all the time in the games.  You won't get to Thessia anytime soon, but you don't need to. And since the quarian liveships are plainly visible at Earth when their fleet checks in, the only way the turians are in trouble is if you got the quarians killed. Even then, the problem is not necessarily insoluble. Depends on how close to Earth a dextro planet is.

And if the planet's devastated, that's got nothing to do with the relays; it's devastated anyway.

And again, your avoiding my argument and focusing on my opinion on the post ec endings, tbh I'm really doubting I'll stay in this convo much longer with you going around in circles avoiding my argument.

I'm not avoiding your argument; I'm denying its premises. But  I shouldn't have bothered. Even if you were right about how much damage Destroy does, it's still better than total extermination.

[AlanC9]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Your choices do matter. You managed to get the whole galaxy killed, didn't you?[/b]

What it reaffirms is that Refuse is not the way to save the galaxy. Which is hardly a surprise.

Best bull**** of the day...

Glad you liked it.

Of course, it does happen to be true.

Saying that "your choices don't matter" is not the same thing as saying "I don't like any of the choices." Although I suppose he might mean something along the lines of "all choices are equally bad." But for that to be true he would need to be using a very odd value system.

Modifié par AlanC9, 13 septembre 2012 - 09:14 .

[my Aim is True]

The extended cut was not awesome, it was alright. It turned a major disappointed into a minor one.
Still didn't get to see War Assets in action. Still didn't get to see old squadmates in action. Didn't get to direct the flow of battle or make any Suicide Mission styles choices.
And no real character epilogues, just a lousy powerpoint slide-show. Not even 3D rendered!

[BaladasDemnevanni]

JBPBRC wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
If anything, it should have been done in the style of episode VI as Luke and Palpatine debate the future of the galaxy amidst the Battle of Endor.

AWWWW, YO MAMA FIGHT!

Yo mama is so stupid she spent all day saying "am not" to "R2". OHH!

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 13 septembre 2012 - 11:16 .

[frostajulie]

refusal is the only in character ending to any of my Shepards that would not pick destroy so as much as it hurts no don't get rid of destroy.

[drayfish]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
If anything, it should have been done in the style of episode VI as Luke and Palpatine debate the future of the galaxy amidst the Battle of Endor.

AWWWW, YO MAMA FIGHT!

Yo mama is so stupid she spent all day saying "am not" to "R2". OHH!

Awwww yeah...

Yo mama is ...well, she is probably a very lovely woman.  I wouldn't know, I've never met her.  And parenting is such a multifacetted occupation anyway.  Who's to say what's wrong and right?  Who am I to judge? 



...Wait, I'm not doing this right, am I?

[GreyLycanTrope]

Jononarf wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

It fits both in my case, my Shepard's character in not your Shepard's character. Synthesis is the only thing that doesn't fit the universe.

Saren's mission from ME1. It's obvious.

Reapers using implants to control people, yes.
A science fantasy wave of energy that modefies synthetics and manipulates all organic DNA while creating physical cybernetic augmentation on the chromosomal level, no.

[LiarasShield]

Yate wrote...

THIS THREAD IS NOT TO **** ABOUT THE GAME. THERE ARE OTHER THREADS FOR THAT. THERE'S BEEN ENOUGH HATRED FLYING AROUND THE INTERNET AND I DON'T WANT ANY OF THAT HERE.

@ BioWare:

Look, you guys screwed up. Happens to the best of us. And it's OK. Extended Cut was awesome. There are always going to be people who don't like it, but at least now the series has a proper ending. Thank you.

The community gave you a lot of sh*t, some of it was deserved, but a lot wasn't. I think most of us realize that, and most of us don't hate you. Not really. We just want to see Shepard and friends get the best possible send-off. What we do, we do out of genuine love.

Of course, there are those who have sworn of BioWare games forever. I get that it's hard to see fans turn on you. But that doesn't excuse Refusal.

Let's get the obvious out of the way first. Refusal is not an ending. It's an insult. It's a big "F you" to the players. It was supposed to give the player a way out, a way to avoid stepping through plot hoops they didn't want. Except that choice had never been offered before. Shepard never refused to save the galaxy before. In fact, Refusal is one thing that ANY Shepard wouldn't logically do. Hackett and everyone is depending on the crucible being activated, Shepard wouldn't let him down, wouldn't give up everything fought for just to make a point.

Look, I get the decision to make it impossible to defeat the Reapers without the crucible. I agree with it, in fact. Anything else would've made the Reapers look too weak and/or stupid. But that's no reason to include Refusal. It's painfully obvious that everyone's hopes are on the crucible, and without it we lose. We get it. We don't need a fake ending to drive the point home.

There is no adequate story or gameplay reason to include Refusal. So what is it doing there?

Simple. It's BioWare telling their fans where to get off. It's not part of Shepard's story, or the Mass Effect universe. It's a direct message from BioWare corp. to you, the player. And the message is "F you. If you don't want our ending, you lose".

We get it. Some fans went too far. But that's not an excuse. This is beyond petty and immature. BioWare, this isn't the way to handle things. You don't wreck your magnum opus just to get back at people. The pressure for a different ending was done out of love for Mass Effect and the knowledge that you guys could have done a better job. Instead of just accepting you made a mistake and moving on, you chose to directly insult the people who love your creation.

If you don't want to change the endings, that's fine. But please, TALK TO US LIKE ADULTS. Explain why you made these endings, try and share the way you see it with us. I believe that you did your best to make a beautiful, meaningful ending for this series. We just want the same thing, and maybe if you'd open up this wall of hurtful silence you've been projecting ever since release the people here could see the endings the way you do.

Please, patch out Refusal. It spoils an otherwise beautiful piece of work. If you believe your endings are strong, then stick by your decision and don't insult us by giving a fake option.

Actually shepard not trusting the one who controls the reapers or saying no because he or she thinks its a trap by the one who leads the reapers I'm sorry no refuse does not need to be patched out or retconned if you don't like the ending simply don't choose it

[The Spamming Troll]

AlanC9 wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Your choices do matter. You managed to get the whole galaxy killed, didn't you?[/b]

What it reaffirms is that Refuse is not the way to save the galaxy. Which is hardly a surprise.

Best bull**** of the day...

Glad you liked it.

Of course, it does happen to be true.

Saying that "your choices don't matter" is not the same thing as saying "I don't like any of the choices." Although I suppose he might mean something along the lines of "all choices are equally bad." But for that to be true he would need to be using a very odd value system.

Refuse shouldnt have been written by bioware then.

in the end, my choices give me exactly what your choices give you. doesnt matter if the choices were good or bad, youll get 25 EMS regardless, and so will my shepard. it never felt rewarding in ME3 to save the council considering those that didnt save the council, STILL GET A COUNCIL, and the same end!

"consequences, shmonsequences."
-bioware

[The Spamming Troll]

xBl4ck0p5x wrote...

iakus wrote...

But they only synergized to a limited degree.  Players can refuse, but they can't resist.  Which was the whole point of refusing in the first place.  And total loss was put in without a balancing  win.  Thus the " You don't like our options?  Frak you!  Rocks fall!" mentality that Refuse now has.  Yes, it contains (some of) lthe letter of the request but lacks the spirit behind the requests (a way for Shepard to win on his/her own terms).

If I could resist in Refuse, I might have picked it.
The "balancing win" was the Crucible. You would win if you used it, the weapon a large portion of your War Assets went toward building.
I think that anyone who picked Refuse (and expected to win) wasn't paying enough attention throughout the game. Yeah, the rocks crushed you because you didn't move out of the goddamn way.
I certainly wished that I could win without a device like the Crucible. Ultimately, however, I couldn't.

my shepard could have.

^
which is the whole point of the game!

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 14 septembre 2012 - 11:21 .

[2Shepards]

As always, love seeing my Refusal sigs in Refusal threads....hehehehehehe ego

Like I've said about a million times over, if I could actually stomach any of the choices, I would most likely choose Refuse...but I can't choose it either....bah well

[Shermos]

My fail game Shepard chose refusal and it was funny as hell. I'd like it to stay.

[ahnariprellik]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

Everyone talks about how the whole game was about activating and building the Crucible. And it kind of was, but was anyone else thinking the whole time that the Crucible plans were stored in places in such a way that the Reapers almost certainly knew about it, and could have planted it? Or that it obviously did not work before, and other means of defeating the Reapers needed to be devised?

I am among those who believe that there should also be a Refusal Success ending. I haven't seen the Refusal ending, but from what I've heard, despite it being horribly short, it's probably one of the better endings due to its lack of space magic or illogically killing Shepard for something that, given the technology level, there's absolutely no reason Shepard has to die to accomplish (greybox tech means that there is absolutely no reason Shepard should have to die for her consciousness to be transferred into the Catalyst, especially since Reapers have even more advanced technology available to them that lets them read and control minds--without killing).

And then there's the fact that Reapers have that glaring laser port weakness that... only gets exploited once. Which is absurd. Your enemy has a weakness, so you ignore it?

Yes, there are legions of Reapers. But they have at least one weakness, and I'm guessing they have others. Meanwhile, the Crucible is based on plans that the Reapers have had access to, could have changed, and almost certainly know about and are prepared for. Yeah, let's build the Crucible so that we can magically turn everyone into a husk... Which it almost certainly COULD have done, except for Plot Magic that somehow kept the Reapers from realizing that they left those plans lying around.

Refusal makes sense for some Shepards, whether it is or isn't EA/Bioware giving the players the finger. I don't know if I'd make any of the Reapers' offered choices. I'd probably propose some other solution, but I sincerely doubt I'd trust the Reapers regardless. And if they're going to be inflexible, and if I don't believe they can be trusted, what else can I do but refuse to work with them?

This. I never understood why TIM had to warn the Reapers to close the Citadel cause you were getting ready to use the Crucible.They were there in the galaxy the entire time you were building. Trust me, they knew you were coming. Also, just realized, how and where did they find the time to build this without being wiped out before completing it?

[JBPBRC]

ahnariprellik wrote...

This. I never understood why TIM had to warn the Reapers to close the Citadel cause you were getting ready to use the Crucible.They were there in the galaxy the entire time you were building. Trust me, they knew you were coming. Also, just realized, how and where did they find the time to build this without being wiped out before completing it?

Apparently Hackett is extremely good and building the galaxy's giant microphone and hiding both it, and the entirety of the galaxy's forces away from the Reapers. He's just not that good when it comes to actually fighting the Reapers.

Hackett: Everyone get into cavalry lines!

Turian: What's a cavalry line?

Hackett: Just get your spaceships in a straight line and charge the enemy!

Geth: This course of action does not seem condusive to our goal.
Quarian: How does charging at them in a straight line help me get back to Rannoch?
Turian: Wouldn't picking off isolated Reapers while avoiding as many casaulties as possible be better?
Salarian: Have we figured out yet what the microphone is for?
Krogan: You mean it doesn't fire thresher maws?
Asari: Where's the club music?

Hackett: Shaddup! I'm the one who just gave the cheesy grandiose speech! You must do as I say!

[Massa FX]

I prefer to leave Refuse in. I shot the AI. It felt good. Then I reloaded and did my customary destroy. But being able to refuse is a good thing... it would be better if a victory was possible, but artistic integrity prohibits players from actually enjoying the ending by working hard to win and then getting rewarded by beating the Reapers without betraying and murdering allies and Jokers gf.

That just wouldn't be artistic or unique.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...
If anything, it should have been done in the style of episode VI as Luke and Palpatine debate the future of the galaxy amidst the Battle of Endor.

AWWWW, YO MAMA FIGHT!

Yo mama is so stupid she spent all day saying "am not" to "R2". OHH!

Yo mama is so fat Ben Kenobi said,"That's no moon, that's yo mama".
Loved that skit.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 15 septembre 2012 - 07:42 .

[Eralrik]

In my opinion I usually end my games before the charge an choose that as my ending or rather they have the fleet beating down the reapers and the ground forces taking bit by bit in my ending an the Levs out there controling reapers an sending them against other reapers.
I WILL NOT SIGN MY SOUL over to the DEVIL"S ADVOCATE <StarBrat> by choosing 1 of his options that I must choose to save the galaxy, Control you might have control now but in 50,000 years your mind will have gone utterly insane an be back wiping out the galaxy as the Reaper mandate will have taken over again,
Synthsis were all combined with husks an we no longer have a singular thought to ourselves as we are now a hive mind an the Reapers now have their slaves an we have lost all our uniqueness an our diversity,
Destroy well we Destroyed the Reapers in our galaxy along with the Geth, EDI and anyone who uses implants with reaper tech as we use their tech to grow along their path, but the Reapers may not have brought everyone out from Darkspace to harvest.
4th Option is Bioware slapping the fans in the faces for questioning their artistic integrity an their story telling an that if you don't like it you can not play the game as there are many others out there who will continue slapping down their credit cards an buying whatever we throw out there.

Just my opinion - steps off the soap box!

Modifié par Eralrik, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:02 .

[Jadebaby]

Yate wrote...

THIS THREAD IS NOT TO **** ABOUT THE GAME. THERE ARE OTHER THREADS FOR THAT. THERE'S BEEN ENOUGH HATRED FLYING AROUND THE INTERNET AND I DON'T WANT ANY OF THAT HERE.

@ BioWare:

Look, you guys screwed up. Happens to the best of us. And it's OK. Extended Cut was awesome. There are always going to be people who don't like it, but at least now the series has a proper ending. Thank you.

The community gave you a lot of sh*t, some of it was deserved, but a lot wasn't. I think most of us realize that, and most of us don't hate you. Not really. We just want to see Shepard and friends get the best possible send-off. What we do, we do out of genuine love.

Of course, there are those who have sworn of BioWare games forever. I get that it's hard to see fans turn on you. But that doesn't excuse Refusal.

Let's get the obvious out of the way first. Refusal is not an ending. It's an insult. It's a big "F you" to the players. It was supposed to give the player a way out, a way to avoid stepping through plot hoops they didn't want. Except that choice had never been offered before. Shepard never refused to save the galaxy before. In fact, Refusal is one thing that ANY Shepard wouldn't logically do. Hackett and everyone is depending on the crucible being activated, Shepard wouldn't let him down, wouldn't give up everything fought for just to make a point.

Look, I get the decision to make it impossible to defeat the Reapers without the crucible. I agree with it, in fact. Anything else would've made the Reapers look too weak and/or stupid. But that's no reason to include Refusal. It's painfully obvious that everyone's hopes are on the crucible, and without it we lose. We get it. We don't need a fake ending to drive the point home.

There is no adequate story or gameplay reason to include Refusal. So what is it doing there?

Simple. It's BioWare telling their fans where to get off. It's not part of Shepard's story, or the Mass Effect universe. It's a direct message from BioWare corp. to you, the player. And the message is "F you. If you don't want our ending, you lose".

We get it. Some fans went too far. But that's not an excuse. This is beyond petty and immature. BioWare, this isn't the way to handle things. You don't wreck your magnum opus just to get back at people. The pressure for a different ending was done out of love for Mass Effect and the knowledge that you guys could have done a better job. Instead of just accepting you made a mistake and moving on, you chose to directly insult the people who love your creation.

If you don't want to change the endings, that's fine. But please, TALK TO US LIKE ADULTS. Explain why you made these endings, try and share the way you see it with us. I believe that you did your best to make a beautiful, meaningful ending for this series. We just want the same thing, and maybe if you'd open up this wall of hurtful silence you've been projecting ever since release the people here could see the endings the way you do.

Please, patch out Refusal. It spoils an otherwise beautiful piece of work. If you believe your endings are strong, then stick by your decision and don't insult us by giving a fake option.

Wtf?

EC did nothing, in fact the only difference between EC and the original ending IS refuse. And your asking for that to be taken away? What.the.hell.