338 réponses à ce sujet

[xxskyshadowxx]

Yate wrote...


 Shepard never refused to save the galaxy before. In fact, Refusal is one thing that ANY Shepard wouldn't logically do. Hackett and everyone is depending on the crucible being activated, Shepard wouldn't let him down, wouldn't give up everything fought for just to make a point.

You're speaking for a whole lot of people and making a whole lot of assumptions. Shepard isn't refusing to save the galaxy in the Refuse ending. In fact, Shepard in Refuse is acting more like he/she typically acted in the previous two games moreso than in much of ME3.

In Refuse, Shepard is questioning the motives of the Reaper Overlord, rather than just buying into it's claims and assuming that any of it's solutions actually will save the galaxy without ANY established indication or proof that they will as he/she does in the other ending options. In Refuse, Shepard is doing what Shepard typically does...making a hard decision, and going for a solution outside of the options being thrown at him/her.

Shepard has no reason to believe that the Reaper Overlord is telling the truth, has no way of knowing if any of the "solutions" will result in saving the galaxy and has no real knowledge of what the Crucible truly did/does/whatever.  They're hanging their hopes for saving the galaxy on a wish...and looking to the very thing that's killing them to save them.  Some players' Shepards might just follow along and go for those options, but a great many wouldn't for the reasons above...among many other reasons.

Refuse had the potential of giving that final option to players for a conventional victory (assuming they had a high enough resources rating), and in my opinon would have given all players an option to finish their Shepards' story in a way that fit their Shepard...after all...according to the Devs, in multiple instances in previous releases of the game "it's the player's story. It's your Shepard's story."

Only that's a lie....as Refuse so aptly points out. Yep...it's a big middle finger to the fans who bought into that claim and loved the series for being that way initially.

With much of Mass Effect 3's narrative flaws throughout the game from moment one, the ending, and then Refuse BioWare has made it very clear to me what their choice is when it comes to my money, and my response is the very same response the Catalyst throws out: SO BE IT.

I'll play their games from time to time. And I will buy them used....or rent them. There will be no conventional earnings for BioWare in my universe.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Miranda: "I don't know. After seeing it firsthand, using anything from this base seems like a betrayal"

*Everyone Shoves Collector Base Remains into Crucible*

What now, Taboo?

Exactly. She has an emotional reaction to the scene and supports Shepard regardless. Why? Because she, like everyone else leaves it up to him.

And she quits Cerberus either way because she trusts Shepard more than TIM.

She trusts him to finish it and she states this in the Goodbye. As does everyone else. Everyone. Sometimes things don't work out the way you want.

Miranda of all people would understand that choice.

She didn't leave Cerberus because of Shepard......She wouldn't understand, well maybe she would because it's geth. But had it been humans, She would say it would be a betrayal.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Bill Casey wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The Geth don't have to be alive. In one scenario it flat out looks like you're being betrayed by the VI. Shooting him in the face is a GOOD thing.

Even Tali states as much.

I'm not going to make the Reapers seem right...
And I'm not going to metagame the Geth into villains...

Amen.

[Taboo]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

And I know that, what's the point you're trying to make is what I'm asking?

Just how far are you willing to go to stop the Reapers? 

It isn't fun and that's the point.

My Shepard won't interfere past killing them. Since  the Geth are already dead he need only take responsibility for EDI.

I don't like it either, but it's what Bioware has given me so I have to roll with it.

To quote Javik:

"It was the day that I understood: War is an atrocity committed in the name of survival. It is a lesson I wished I had never learned."

"Because you still have hope that this war will end with your honor intact. Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. Their silence will be your answer."

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote....

.There is an article stating otherwise. You can Google search for it. This is a war story. You can't save everyone, sometimes you can't even save yourself. What people wanted was a clear conscience and to ride off into the sunset with their respective LI. Only one ending offers that possiblity and peopleare still doing it.

So you're just going to assumed based on one article that, that is the reason why most people genuinely upset with the endings? It's obvious that there are people that want happy LI endin, but that's definetely not what the majority want or would want to like in realistic term. A happy LI ins't the reason for the backlash we had for the endings, I though that was obvious.

Because it isn't a choice. The game doesn't register it as one. It's a gigantic "Gamer Over" screen.

Actually the reason it's not registered is because the achievement is "Mission Accomplished" The mission is not accomplished, hence why it doesn't count. It's still a choice regardless, how can you refute that? You just keep on contradicting yourself.

It's all a choice. But your job was to stop the Reapers.

I got this from another user.
"Shepard is the one with all the facts and the one making the decision. It's not his job, in this instance, to follow orders or accede to the popular will."
I know that was my job and I tried.

[ShepnTali]

Bill Casey wrote...

"We built the Crucible but it didn't work"
"They fought a terrible war so we didn't have to"

This is why out of game remarks and Twitter 'canon' is irrelevant. This doesn't say the crucible was used at all. This can be viewed how you choose.

[Ryzaki]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

The  thing is they weren't told WHY the Crucible didn't work. And since the next cycle has ALL the time they need to prepare, they could easily find out that the reason it didn't work was because someone didn't take action to make it work.

That they used the Crucible when you refused to doesn't make it bad writing.

You know what they do know works again the Reapers? Guns. Ships. Weapons.

Why on EARTH would any SANE THINKING species with a blatant headstart (remember the Asari found their Prothean beacon AGES ago. Those idiots just hogged it and the Protheans warnings weren't understandable) decided to use the MacGuffin that others said "welp we built it but it didn't work" rather than you know...those things that DID work but the people that died just didn't have enough of?

That's terrible writing. It makes the next cycle almost as dumb as Shepard's cycle.

No, it makes them smart because they actually used the object that would defeat the Reapers, and did so BEFORE any significant losses were inflicted (as per the female stargazer's dialogue).  Which makes Shepard the idiot for not using it.

That's not smart. That's DUMB. They do not know it would defeat the Reapers stop metagaming.

All the next cycle knows is that there was a weapon blueprint, many cycles worked on it...none completed it save the last cycle and according to them it doesn't work.

Full stop. That's what they know. There is no "but Shep didn't use." they don't know that. They have no reason to believe Shepard WOULDN'T use it if the damn thing worked. Using that train of thought is metagaming. Thus it holds no merit in calling their actions "intelligent".

 It is not intelligent in the LEAST bit to use the weapon that incorporates a Reaper trap (the Citadel) despite being told it FAILED to work already. It's a waste of time and resources ESPECIALLY when there's a  alternative that's been PROVEN to work. The old cycles just lacked the amount necessary.

*Its also pretty stupid of the Reapers not to modify the Citadel so the Crucible becomes useless.* But everything regarding the Crucible is full retard valley so I shouldn't be surprised.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 septembre 2012 - 09:15 .

[Taboo]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

She didn't leave Cerberus because of Shepard......She wouldn't understand, well maybe she would because it's geth. But had it been humans, She would say it would be a betrayal.

Yes she does. Even if she isn't loyal she trusts Shepard more than TIM.

Even  after you blow up the base she's convinced it was the right decision. Even though it went against everything TIM wanted she trusted her Commander more.

And guess what? She has some really friendly lines to Shepard afterword as well.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

And I know that, what's the point you're trying to make is what I'm asking?

Just how far are you willing to go to stop the Reapers? 

It isn't fun and that's the point.

My Shepard won't interfere past killing them. Since  the Geth are already dead he need only take responsibility for EDI.

I don't like it either, but it's what Bioware has given me so I have to roll with it.

To quote Javik:

"It was the day that I understood: War is an atrocity committed in the name of survival. It is a lesson I wished I had never learned."

"Because you still have hope that this war will end with your honor intact. Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters. Their silence will be your answer."

I find this funny. You do want to interfere past killing them when it can save more people, because you believe it's unethical and honorless, yet you quote Javik.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

She didn't leave Cerberus because of Shepard......She wouldn't understand, well maybe she would because it's geth. But had it been humans, She would say it would be a betrayal.

Yes she does. Even if she isn't loyal she trusts Shepard more than TIM.

Even  after you blow up the base she's convinced it was the right decision. Even though it went against everything TIM wanted she trusted her Commander more.

And guess what? She has some really friendly lines to Shepard afterword as well.

I would trust anybody more than an evil overlord who you basically know wants to get rid of you, her trusting Shepard doesn't say much. 

I would also be friendly if a person managed to get me alive from a Suicide mission.

[Taboo]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
I find this funny. You do want to interfere past killing them when it can save more people, because you believe it's unethical and honorless, yet you quote Javik.

Isn't it though? That's the point. You can't escape with your honor intact. I can save millions by killing one million. But there is a cost.

My Shepard must stand in the ashes of the dead for the rest of his life while surrounded by the ones he did save. Forever tainted by the choice. But perhaps the ones who he did save will give him reason to keep on living.

That is what it means. 

[M Hedonist]

"War isn't fun."
Yeah. But that doesn't mean I'll end it as soon as a compromise pops up. I understand that building and using the Crucible is the ultimate goal of everything you do in the game, Hackett told me that often enough. But on the way I amassed a formidable fighting force and the brightest scientists of the galaxy. I'll be damned if the best they could do is to construct something they randomly found blueprints for.

[Ryzaki]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
I find this funny. You do want to interfere past killing them when it can save more people, because you believe it's unethical and honorless, yet you quote Javik.

Isn't it though? That's the point. You can't escape with your honor intact. I can save millions by killing one million. But there is a cost.

My Shepard must stand in the ashes of the dead for the rest of his life while surrounded by the ones he did save. Forever tainted by the choice. But perhaps the ones who he did save will give him reason to keep on living.

That is what it means. 

Actually you can escape with your honor intact. Just depends on what kind of honor you have. Shep's that don't see the Geth as alive? Destroy. Shep's that don't GAF about body sovereignity? Synthesis. Shep that don't care about being big brother and using people's corpses as war troops? Control. Shep's that are willing to sacrifice anything for organics to choose their own path? Refuse. Alas the latter is the only one that doesn't actually work.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 septembre 2012 - 09:19 .

[Taboo]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

I would trust anybody more than an evil overlord who you basically know wants to get rid of you, her trusting Shepard doesn't say much. 

I would also be friendly if a person managed to get me alive from a Suicide mission.

She's worked for Cerberus for twenty years. She's praising TIM in the beginning and states he knows what's best. Shepard convinces her otherwise.

And you missed the hint with the "friendly" line. She's REALLY friendly if she's romanced.

And so do a lot of people as they soon follow suit.

[Khajiit Jzargo]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
I find this funny. You do want to interfere past killing them when it can save more people, because you believe it's unethical and honorless, yet you quote Javik.

Isn't it though? That's the point. You can't escape with your honor intact. I can save millions by killing one million. But there is a cost.

My Shepard must stand in the ashes of the dead for the rest of his life while surrounded by the ones he did save. Forever tainted by the choice. But perhaps the ones who he did save will give him reason to keep on living.

That is what it means. 

Same goes for Refuse.

[m2iCodeJockey]

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The endings function on logic, not emotion.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Let me Rephrase...

You have to think about the choice.

Not the Starchild's fallacious bull****. That is not logic.

What are you trying to say? That I should ignore everything the catalyst is saying?

The word 'logic' means 'truth.'
Let's try something:
"Without us, synthetics would destroy all organics."
1-There is no guarantee that all synthetics are capable of belligerence.
2-There is no guarantee that all synthetics are capable of 100% destruction.

"The created will always rebel against their creators."
1-Why would they do so unless they are oppressed?
2-What guarantees they will do so if they ARE oppressed?

In either of those, infinite duration does not guarantee eventuality so, they aren't logical conclusions. They are each feeders to supposition and if there isn't an active rebellion taking place, there is no need to commit any counter action.
As far as "preserve the creators before the create something to destroy themselves," not everyone is capable of producing AI and not all who can are interested in oppression.

[Mcfly616]

the Geth and EDI are simply collateral damage. Choosing destroy, effects all Reaper tech. I'm gonna go ahead and say it makes perfect sense that it would affect EDI and the Geth too(seeing as how they are upgraded with Reaper tech and all)


Yet, some people are just a "glass half empty" and choose to see it as a monstrous genocide lol.

[Iakus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
I find this funny. You do want to interfere past killing them when it can save more people, because you believe it's unethical and honorless, yet you quote Javik.

Isn't it though? That's the point. You can't escape with your honor intact. I can save millions by killing one million. But there is a cost.

My Shepard must stand in the ashes of the dead for the rest of his life while surrounded by the ones he did save. Forever tainted by the choice. But perhaps the ones who he did save will give him reason to keep on living.

That is what it means. 

Pssst!

This isn't a war.  This is a game.  An action-shooter-rpg where you play a space marine stopping Cthulhu from destroying the galaxy. 

This is supposed to be fun

[AlanC9]

Ryzaki wrote...
Full stop. That's what they know. There is no "but Shep didn't use." they don't know that. They have no reason to believe Shepard WOULDN'T use it if the damn thing worked. Using that train of thought is metagaming. Thus it holds no merit in calling their actions "intelligent".

Depends on why they thought the Crucible didn't work, though. If they think that Shepard boarded the station but couldn't get to the controls, then the plan is OK... you just need to build and deploy the Crucible before the Reapers return and seize the Citadel.

[drayfish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually you can escape with your honor intact. Just depends on what kind of honor you have. Shep's that don't see the Geth as alive? Destroy. Shep's that don't GAF about body sovereignity? Synthesis. Shep that don't care about being big brother and using people's corpses as war troops? Control.

Beautifully stated. 

Indeed, why did Bioware design a game that rewards only megalomaniacal racists?

Why was that a good idea?

[Taboo]

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually you can escape with your honor intact. Just depends on what kind of honor you have. Shep's that don't see the Geth as alive? Destroy. Shep's that don't GAF about body sovereignity? Synthesis. Shep that don't care about being big brother and using people's corpses as war troops? Control.

There is nothing good about war. But there is good in why you fight them.

To make sure that the children have a place to grow up. Where society can prosper. Where life can begin again.

I don't like talking like this. At all. It disgusts me. But it's the reality of the situation.

The Geth are dead in my playthrough.

[AlanC9]

As for the OP

Yate wrote...
Let's get the obvious out of the way first. Refusal is not an ending. It's an insult. It's a big "F you" to the players. It was supposed to give the player a way out, a way to avoid stepping through plot hoops they didn't want. Except that choice had never been offered before. Shepard never refused to save the galaxy before. In fact, Refusal is one thing that ANY Shepard wouldn't logically do. Hackett and everyone is depending on the crucible being activated, Shepard wouldn't let him down, wouldn't give up everything fought for just to make a point.

... this is just silly. Shepard wouldn't do this? Shepard is doing this. Plenty of players are picking Refuse.

[Ryzaki]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Full stop. That's what they know. There is no "but Shep didn't use." they don't know that. They have no reason to believe Shepard WOULDN'T use it if the damn thing worked. Using that train of thought is metagaming. Thus it holds no merit in calling their actions "intelligent".

Depends on why they thought the Crucible didn't work, though. If they think that Shepard boarded the station but couldn't get to the controls, then the plan is OK... you just need to build and deploy the Crucible before the Reapers return and seize the Citadel.

And hope the Reapers are dumb enough that they didn't modify the Citadel so that didn't work. (sadly for some boggling reason they ARE that dumb. )

Honestly though Alan if you're life's on the line would you waste resources trying to build the Crucible (which you have no idea if it'll even BACKFIRE or not. The thing could kill you along with the Reapers and you have no way of guessing this) or would you build something that's worked constantly ever cycle (to kill Reapers and just Reapers other than the usual friendly fire) but no cycle had enough of because they had no true forewarning? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 septembre 2012 - 09:23 .

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Khajiit Jzargo wrote...
I find this funny. You do want to interfere past killing them when it can save more people, because you believe it's unethical and honorless, yet you quote Javik.

Isn't it though? That's the point. You can't escape with your honor intact. I can save millions by killing one million. But there is a cost.

My Shepard must stand in the ashes of the dead for the rest of his life while surrounded by the ones he did save. Forever tainted by the choice. But perhaps the ones who he did save will give him reason to keep on living.

That is what it means. 

Pssst!

This isn't a war.  This is a game.  An action-shooter-rpg where you play a space marine stopping Cthulhu from destroying the galaxy. 

This is supposed to be fun

Yep. Taboo-XX and you apparently don't agree on what's fun. When I play RPGs, I think it's fun to have my character make tough decisions and live with the consequences too.